Captain America 3 - Discussion and reviews (SPOILERS in tags until May 14th!)

[sifth]

This film is going to take a little while to process. I loved the concept of the Avengers splitting like this, but the main villains plan seemed to rely on a lot of luck and coincidences. This is a hard one for me, because the climax of this film was great, but the pieces that lead up to it don't fit.

 

Over all I really liked this movie. One of my favorite scenes was the main characters just sitting in a room debating if this bill is right or wrong. It just had such a real world feel to it and showed that these characters really do care for each other.

Also I love the the new kid as Spiderman. He's amazing, made me laugh and the fact that Stark is being set up as his mentor is just awesome on so many levels. The Black Panther was great as well, though I wish they used certain attributes of the character better, like him reading his enemies moves and figuring out their weaknesses quickly.

The Airport scene was easily the highlight of the film, but Stark visiting all of the heroes placed in prison got to me as well. RDJ really did an amazing job, which a lot of his scenes and I could really feel Tony's heart breaking as the film went on.

Ahh screw it, that ending really did get to me. This was a really good movie, which as usual mostly only suffered from Marvel's weak villain syndrome. Another complaint, which I not even sure is a complaint is, RDJ did steal a lot of Chris Evan's screen time. I love both actors, but this was a Cap film, first and foremost.

[JGP]

I'm a kid. Give me a mixed bag of flagship heroes and insofar as those I like best my DC stack tops Marvel to the point where comparing piles isn't necessary.

But.

I'm not going to get into the ins and outs of Civil War. It had flaws, sure. But over all? Pfft. 

I'm not a kid anymore, sure, but I got to say-- that despite what I still perceive as a substantial grade-disparity in actual properties is that Marvel [hands down and tapping out here] Marvel absolutely makes the most of theirs and completely owns DC at the movie theater. The thing that really confuses me is how one or several bigwigs at Time Warner haven't handed pinkslips to the head of DC Entertainment and her various unimaginative underlings at Warner Bros proper.

Yet.  

[sifth]

4 minutes ago, JEORDHl said:

I'm a kid. Give me a mixed bag of flagship heroes and insofar as those I like best my DC stack tops Marvel to the point where comparing piles isn't necessary.

But.

I'm not going to get into the ins and outs of Civil War. It had flaws, sure. But over all? Pfft. 

I'm not a kid anymore, sure, but I got to say-- that despite what I still perceive as a substantial grade-disparity in actual properties is that Marvel [hands down and tapping out here] Marvel absolutely makes the most of theirs and completely owns DC at the movie theater. The thing that really confuses me is how one or several bigwigs at Time Warner haven't handed pinkslips to the head of DC Entertainment and her various unimaginative underlings at Warner Bros proper.

Yet.  

Trust me, I'm still amazed Zack Snyder is being allowed to work on Justice League, after his massive screw up with BvS. "I'm gona make Batman into a serial killer, the kids will freaken love it". lol

[polishgenius]

4 minutes ago, sifth said:

Trust me, I'm still amazed Zack Snyder is being allowed to work on Justice League, after his massive screw up with BvS. "I'm gona make Batman into a serial killer, the kids will freaken love it". lol

They really need to hand creative control of the DC cinematic universe to Geoff Johns. No, he has no experience in film, which is why he wouldn't direct, but he absolutely knows the DCU inside out and, with New 52, has more experience of marshalling a whole new universe than anyone else you could give the job to.

[JGP]

Yah, PG 

I've read recently that WB has brought Affleck in as an executive producer on Justice League. Which seemed a strange move given that production has already started, but perhaps it's an indication that though Snyder's flaws have clearly been recognized they're still not ready to pull the trigger. So, next move is to support and see if performance improves. I don't think it's enough. In my opinion, it's the myopic vision of the upper echelon more at fault, but we'll see I spose.

I really don't mean to derail the thread, but after seeing Civil War I'm well and truly baffled at the difference between studio products and their respective performances at the box office. Civil War will outpace BvS within weeks, mark my words. The conclusion I'd draw is that the management at/of DC Entertainment and Warner Bros aren't just out of touch with the movie going audience but also with the properties they're promoting.

Geoff might be the way to go.

 

edited for shit grammar   

[mormont]

This would be Geoff 'let's bring back all the Silver Age characters, they were great when I was 8, also let's have everyone lose an arm' Johns? Yeah, I'm not sure that he is going to be the salvation of the DCCU.

[JGP]

Hard to say. I actually really liked what he did with the Justice Society but that might be little more than bias there as I love the Justice Society anyway. Hawkman, Wonder Woman [originally, redacted later] Spectre, Dr Fate, Hourman, Steel, Liberty Belle, Dr Midnite, Sandman, on and on... fantastic lineup.

Interestingly, PG got me looking into Geoff a bit more and by all appearances he might not actually be outside the loop. If that's the case, I'm not sure where to go from there. I mean, if Geoff isn't the man then someone like say Jim Lee definitely isn't. 

  

 

 

[polishgenius]

40 minutes ago, mormont said:

This would be Geoff 'let's bring back all the Silver Age characters, they were great when I was 8, also let's have everyone lose an arm' Johns? Yeah, I'm not sure that he is going to be the salvation of the DCCU.

Don't get me wrong, he's not an amazing writer, but he knows how to handle a wide-spread story and juggle several balls at a time. There's a reason why he keeps getting DC's reboot events - because he knows how to do it. Him liking silver age characters really isn't a factor one way or the other - and anyway, Green Lantern: Rebirth was really well done. So there.

Interesting if he's supposed to officially have a say. Can't be much of one- there's very little of his voice in what we've seen so far.

[JGP]

To me it's less the writing [though it's bad on it's own merit] than the creative direction of the content.

Like, it feels like DC is pushing some kind of frenetic pace to play catch up with Marvel and you end up with an ungodly mess like BvS. They need to dial it back, pick a direction and stay steady. Between production and marketing I've read figures for BvS upwards of 450 mil. For that, WB got 4 hours or so of completed footage that had to be hung up and dressed out like a gamey piece of, well -game- to make it even remotely palatable. Movies' been out close on 2 months and is unlikely to crack a bil. And I figured WB and DC would be disappointed if it didn't crack 1.5 bil worldwide... 

Whereas Marvel and Feige [with Whedon deserving props for ground floor layout even though he's since backed out] seem to have a real handle on the product and how to bring it successfully to market. The difference between what these two have produced and how they're received is astonishing to me. I mean, I was grudgingly ok with BvS until I saw Civil War.

Now I'm just pissed at WB/DC, haha...

 

edited for bad grammar, diction, yadda yadda

[DaveSumm]

One of the problems is that DC don't won't to appear to be copying Marvel, when actually that formula would be fine. Do a Superman movie. Then a Batman movie. Then a Flash movie. Then a WW movie. Then, maybe, do a JL film. Build it gradually. It'd just look like copying Marvel now, but really, it's the most obvious way of doing things.

I liked MoS as a film, and I defended BvS which I didn't think was nearly as bad as the reviews said. But even though I like them both as films, I'm not really enthusiastic about them as the basis for a whole DCCU. And this will be the state of play for a good decade.......crazy to think that Superman could easily be usurped as most famous and recognisable superhero. He hasn't been in an unequivocally good film or TV series in 35 years. Meanwhile, Captain America (who I couldn't give two fucks about and assumed was some patriotic douche in 2008) gives us the best series of movies within the MCU by some distance. Who saw that coming? I can't imagine even diehard fans of his did.

I can't decide whether DC are just going about this terribly, or actually it's much harder than it looks and Feige is a genius. Probably somewhere in between.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

3 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

 

I can't decide whether DC are just going about this terribly, or actually it's much harder than it looks and Feige is a genius. Probably somewhere in between.

It's strange because although everything Marvel does appears to be centrally agreed, where all creative decisions have to go through Feige and the Marvel people, which you'd assume would be a nightmare for most directors, somehow it works. Having a strict control on the property and final say on the overall direction for movies and the universe as a whole means what we're getting is a coherent vision of a universe and an understanding of the characters, how they fit together, and where its all going in the future.

Whereas WB/DC seems like decision making process that is chaotic and at odds with itself. There doesn't really appear to be much of a plan, much respect for the individual properties. I feel like Snyder has been given too much freedom to do what he wants, or Goyer, and there's nobody at DC going 'oh hang on, thats not really correct'. Not of course that there is one singular vision of Batman or Superman, but it feels like DC are fine with them doing what they want, because they can just reboot it if it doesn't work. That doesn't seem to happen with Marvel, there is no option of rebooting, we're locked in.

And yet I also get the sense that there is massive interference in the decision making process at WB, to the huge detriment of the movies. How can you explain the slack way Aquaman and Flash are included in the movie other than as a last minute decision. Wonderwoman plays almost no role and the movie would be no different without her. Even Doomsday seems like a strange addition to the plot, and totally unecessary. I can imagine a good version of BvS existed in a first draft, and then the money men got their hands on it and changed everything. I got the same feeling with the Garfield Spiderman movies. I don't get that feeling with the MCU

[sifth]

7 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

It's strange because although everything Marvel does appears to be centrally agreed, where all creative decisions have to go through Feige and the Marvel people, which you'd assume would be a nightmare for most directors, somehow it works. Having a strict control on the property and final say on the overall direction for movies and the universe as a whole means what we're getting is a coherent vision of a universe and an understanding of the characters, how they fit together, and where its all going in the future.

Whereas WB/DC seems like decision making process that is chaotic and at odds with itself. There doesn't really appear to be much of a plan, much respect for the individual properties. I feel like Snyder has been given too much freedom to do what he wants, or Goyer, and there's nobody at DC going 'oh hang on, thats not really correct'. Not of course that there is one singular vision of Batman or Superman, but it feels like DC are fine with them doing what they want, because they can just reboot it if it doesn't work. That doesn't seem to happen with Marvel, there is no option of rebooting, we're locked in.

And yet I also get the sense that there is massive interference in the decision making process at WB, to the huge detriment of the movies. How can you explain the slack way Aquaman and Flash are included in the movie other than as a last minute decision. Wonderwoman plays almost no role and the movie would be no different without her. Even Doomsday seems like a strange addition to the plot, and totally unecessary. I can imagine a good version of BvS existed in a first draft, and then the money men got their hands on it and changed everything. I got the same feeling with the Garfield Spiderman movies. I don't get that feeling with the MCU

 

As much as I loved Spidey in this movie, I can't help, but see a comparison between him and Wonder Woman in BvS. Both characters had limited screen time and were mostly just put into the film to promote their own solo films.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

Just now, sifth said:

 

As much as I loved Spidey in this movie, I can't help, but see a comparison between him and Wonder Woman in BvS. Both characters had limited screen time and were mostly just put into the film to promote their own solo films.

Yeah that part did have a slightly bolted on quality, however the difference being that Spidey really added something to the movie, and was treated with love and respect for the character, and actually given something to do. 

Its a good comparison, because they were essentially doing the same thing, one succeeded and one failed massively. The introduction of Black Panther was excellent and I've gone from having no interest in his movie to being very excited.

[JGP]

I'd agree for the most part, C4.

Whedon hasn't been very outspoken about his decision to step out [kudos, dude] but he has reflected on the amount of work, intensive back and forth and his disappointment with the final product of AoU. I'm don't feel it unsound to surmise that even successful management of a franchise is quite difficult.

Now, Snyder seems an animated and enthusiastic type of guy. I could see him capably downplaying the faults of MoS and convincing execs that he could still lay track at the helm of BvS, but how those same suits then shrugged off oversight-- that is something I find hard to credit. Since WB/DC is behind the game, maybe their basis of franchise profit comparison isn't direct [like say, not BvS vs Civil War but rather BvS vs... an earlier Marvel property] yet even so, I just can't imagine there aren't going to be some serious shake ups going forward the better Civil War does. 

It can't be ignored.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

6 minutes ago, JEORDHl said:

I'd agree for the most part, C4.

Whedon hasn't been very outspoken about his decision to step out [kudos, dude] but he has reflected on the amount of work, intensive back and forth and his disappointment with the final product of AoU. I'm don't feel it unsound to surmise that even successful management of a franchise is quite difficult.

Now, Snyder seems an animated and enthusiastic type of guy. I could see him capably downplaying the faults of MoS and convincing execs that he could still lay track at the helm of BvS, but how those same suits then shrugged off oversight-- that is something I find hard to credit. Since WB/DC is behind the game, maybe their basis of franchise profit comparison isn't direct [like say, not BvS vs Civil War but rather BvS vs... an earlier Marvel property] yet even so, I just can't imagine there aren't going to be some serious shake ups going forward the better Civil War does. 

It can't be ignored.

Yeah true, it should be noted that AoU really felt like a movie with too much interference and it collapsed under its own weight. Even Avengers 1 is clunky at times. But at the very least it all felt relatively coherent and wasn't just a jumble of stuff thrown at the screen.

I still think Snyder did a good job on MoS, I really like it. If you have zero attachment to how Superman should be then its a great movie. But then if it was a Marvel movie it would never have got made like that, its too far away from the standard vision of Superman. But it got a lot of criticism and that coupled with BvS's poor reviews you feel there has to be a shake up. Is it too late though? 

[JGP]

I don't think it's too late. Thing about these properties, is they're kind of timeless. Even though it was Sony, look at the fatigue Spiderman had accrued over the years and in less than 15 minutes of screentime in Civil War my excitement's been completely renewed in the franchise. 

[The Mother of The Others]

47 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

...crazy to think that Superman could easily be usurped...   Captain America (who I couldn't give two fucks about and assumed was some patriotic douche in 2008) gives us the best series of movies

 

Same here.   Shocking, to be repeatedly turned to mush by the hero I had always seen as the dippiest thing to ever put on tights.  But they addressed it directly with the line about how Cap wanted to not wear the outfit but was told that a little Old Fashioned might be just what people needed right now.  And it worked, and I said You know, that's right; we really would rally around some icon imagery like that when we were feeling low.  And the whole thing turned around for me and the hero entered the real world for me, so to speak.  And Marvel does a good job of having shots & music set up the feeling of tension, as if the challenges are real, so you feel them now that you've bought in to the hero's character.  Whereas Superman challenges feel only daunting, not real.  He doesn't lend himself to actual DRAMA that well, because he can deal with most things easily, and look at how much they had to ramp up the challenges in Man of Steel to give him a legit challenge, and by that point it's so far beyond the human experience that we have a tougher time identifying with it.  

After seeing Thor:  "Wow.  That was quite a fun ride.  Amazing!  Uplifting modern mythology.  Want more."   After seeing Ironman: "Looks like the train to awesome town just left the station!  These comics are all going to come to life like this???"   But after seeing Cap movies: "....."  (Because I'm emotional just then and my eyes are twitching with intensity like a Japanese cartoon characters'.)    It's a genuine surprise that Marvel has turned Cap into the series you really FEEL.   Maybe it's not by chance, since they probably looked at the property and decided that's what it had as its best potential.   (Similar to how Hulk and Thor's absence isn't "luck" but design, they knew in advance those guys would wreck the Civil War balance.)    Now, after seeing Man of Steel:  "Whoa.  That was a lot of pummeling!  I feel a bit nautious.  Cool look at his home world, though, and they really nailed some spots with awesome visuals."  Then, on the second viewing, when I was "ready" for all the fisticuffs, I was able to upgrade my opinion of the movie.   They did a fine job with it, I feel now.   But, like I said above, the DC ability to create real tension of the best sort is currently less than what Marvel is cooking up.

I feel DC's approach to doing Bat vs. Super first, before build-up movies, was actually bold and "correct" for their situation.  They were banking on their characters instantly being a bigger deal than the MCU because they really DIDN'T need set-up movies like Marvel did, the DC big names were already universally known and had been in theaters for decades while MCU names need intros.  So why not begin huge, with the goal of continuing huge and leaving Marvel in their dust and never looking back.   It was an ambitious "plan."   It just didn't pan out.   I don't blame them for trying to play the hand they were dealt.   When a car starts passing you on the highway, don't you instinctively hit the gas pedal a little bit to prevent being passed?   They got caught doing that leg-jerk reaction with their franchise, I fear.

[sifth]

1 hour ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Yeah that part did have a slightly bolted on quality, however the difference being that Spidey really added something to the movie, and was treated with love and respect for the character, and actually given something to do. 

Its a good comparison, because they were essentially doing the same thing, one succeeded and one failed massively. The introduction of Black Panther was excellent and I've gone from having no interest in his movie to being very excited.

I agree, T'Challa was great in this film. I can't wait to see his solo film now. It's so cool to have a Marvel character who is quite literally the king of his own country.

 

On the DC issue, I wish they would just admit to what they're trying to do. They like what Marvel is doing and they want to base their films on Marvels idea, there's nothing wrong with that. The sad thing is they're doing it all wrong, if they want to create a shared universe, they need to make us care about these characters first, before having them team up. The reason Civil War worked so well is because we came to know Tony and Steve over the years and care about them. We saw them work together and form a friendship; with Steve we even had the added bonus of seeing him become friends with Tony's father. So seeing that friendship fall apart like this worked very well and over a real issue too. One of my favorite scenes in this film was simply all of these characters talking about their feelings on this bill and if they think it's right or wrong. I don't know why that scene got to me so much, but I just loved how everyone had something to say and contribute to the conversation.

 

[Kalbear]

I didn't think that Cap would be amazing after the first origin story, which was...fine. But then they went and captured the best parts of his mythos and some of the best writing storylines for Cap. While he started as this ideal of what America was, he's also a very interesting person in being such an idealist - and the best stories have always been about his WW2-era idealism of what America can be and can represent coming into conflict with what America is and what the government is doing along with the people of it. 

And they've really done a good job with that aspect. Him being the person who stands up to bullying and can't back down from something he feels is wrong, who isn't going to compromise - he's basically a nicer version of Rorschach, and that leads itself to some amazingly good internal and external conflict. That Chris Evans is a very talented actor and who understands the need to be both the hero and the straight man and is in on the joke really helps; he's about the best possible actor they could have found for Cap. 

[sifth]

Personally I think Tony Stark's beliefs in this film are insane. When trying to save the world from evil aliens and killer robots innocent people are going to die. That's something impossible to prevent. The Avengers at the very least try to save as many people as possible. The team being regulated by the U.N. (which we're laughably meant to believe has actual power in this universe), isn't going prevent collateral damage when the Avengers go on missions. If anything it's going to make the Avengers a more ineffectual group, because they'd now be tied down by government red tape, which is always a good thing. lol

It should also be of note that the government in this world tried to nuke NYC in the first Avengers film and HYDRA infiltrated SHIELD in the second Cap movie. I wouldn't be so quick to trust the U.N. or any government in this world after those two major events.

So yea, I'm for Steve Rogers side all the way.