How is Westeros going to pay off their massive debts?

[blckp]

The Iron Bank will have its due,

will the new king pay this debts?

[Starfell]

Well, leaving aside the impending Fimbulwinter and ice demon/zombie apocalypse I'm sure that the new King/Queen will agree to repay the Throne's debts, to do otherwise risks the IB sponsoring pretenders, rebels, and assassins until they restart payments, which is quite frankly more trouble than it's worth. It would grate horribly on Aegon or Dany to pay usurpers' debts, but at the end of the day, the pragmatic course of action is to accept they're part of the Kingdom and pay them. Even leaving aside the Bank's own punitive measures, pissing off a major trading partner like Braavos would be stupid and refusing pay up would put people off dooing further business with the Westerosi Crown (and with the combination of civil war and Winter, they might even need more loans for rebuilding)

Whether Casterly Rock gets its money back is a different kettle of fish, I think that depends much more on who gets the Throne and who gets the Rock, and what the circumstances of their ascention are. Anyone who has to fight a war against the West for the throne will likely demand that the debt be cancelled when the West surrenders

[DasallmaechtigeJ]

20 minutes ago, Starfell said:

Well, leaving aside the impending Fimbulwinter and ice demon/zombie apocalypse I'm sure that the new King/Queen will agree to repay the Throne's debts, to do otherwise risks the IB sponsoring pretenders, rebels, and assassins until they restart payments, which is quite frankly more trouble than it's worth. It would grate horribly on Aegon or Dany to pay usurpers' debts, but at the end of the day, the pragmatic course of action is to accept they're part of the Kingdom and pay them. Even leaving aside the Bank's own punitive measures, pissing off a major trading partner like Braavos would be stupid and refusing pay up would put people off dooing further business with the Westerosi Crown (and with the combination of civil war and Winter, they might even need more loans for rebuilding)

Whether Casterly Rock gets its money back is a different kettle of fish, I think that depends much more on who gets the Throne and who gets the Rock, and what the circumstances of their ascention are. Anyone who has to fight a war against the West for the throne will likely demand that the debt be cancelled when the West surrenders

While Robert indeed spent a lot, we shouldn't forget that it was not him who bankrupted Westeros. The throne was already heavily in debt when he revolted, Aegon the Unworthy f.e. blew away half the kingdom...

[Blade of Sunlight]

Well I think it depends heavily on the endstate. The first thing to consider is what's left of the world and in what state to consider weather paying actually matters. Second, consider if Bravos/IB feels indebted to whomever sits the IT, particularly if that person has been responsible for defeating the WW. 

If Dany w/ dragons sits the throne then she will have a significan leverage on the IB, either forgive or lower the Baratheon debt or see Bravos go up in flames.

Anyone else, without dragons or some equivalent sort of magic weapon, they'll pay, slowly maybe but they'll pay, they will probably take advantage of the wealth of whichever houses end up on the losing side. 

[Starfell]

28 minutes ago, DasallmaechtigeJ said:

While Robert indeed spent a lot, we shouldn't forget that it was not him who bankrupted Westeros. The throne was already heavily in debt when he revolted, Aegon the Unworthy f.e. blew away half the kingdom...

That damage has been undone by the time Robert's Rebellion rolls around though; in AGoT, Ned is surprised to find the Realm in debt and recalls that the Realm's finances were in good shape at the end of Aerys' reign

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

The same way Jaqen H'Ghar would (“Speak the name, and death will come. On the morrow, at the turn of the moon, a year from this day, it will come. A man does not fly like a bird, but one foot moves and then another and one day a man is there, and a king dies”). One installment after another...

[CJ McLannister]

3 hours ago, blckp said:

The Iron Bank will have its due,

will the new king pay this debts?

With fire and blood.

[Maester of Valyria]

1. Take King's Landing and declare yourself the rightful Ruler of Westeros.
2. March/fly/sail to Casterly Rock.
3. Take the Rock, either by installing a sympathetic Lannister as its lord, or by using military force and subterfuge.
4. If you can't take the Rock, lay siege to it until it surrenders (as it has to eventually; I don't care how many years' of supplies they have stored away in that mountain, the soldiers will want to see the sky again soon enough).
5. While you're laying siege to the Rock, use gold and silver from the rest of the Westerlands to begin paying off your debts/to provide a strong credit rating for more borrowing if you can't extract enough precious metals quickly enough. Reopen the Castamere and Tarbeck mines as well.
6. Use gold from the Rock in the same way, and get the Lannisters to cancel your debt to them and to take on as much of your other debt as possible.
7. Give yourself the 'Master of Coin of the Year' award.

[The Wolves]

3 hours ago, DasallmaechtigeJ said:

While Robert indeed spent a lot, we shouldn't forget that it was not him who bankrupted Westeros. The throne was already heavily in debt when he revolted, Aegon the Unworthy f.e. blew away half the kingdom...

As far as we know Westeros was not in debt while Aerys was king Tywin made sure of that. Plus Aerys had a lot of money when Robert say his disgusting self on that ugly throne. 

Robert and his dumb band of counsel members are defiantly to blame for Westeros being in debt. 

I think Lannister gold will pay off the Iron Bank debt. As for the Lannister getting paid back nope that ain't happening at all. 

[Jaak]

5 hours ago, Starfell said:

Even leaving aside the Bank's own punitive measures, pissing off a major trading partner like Braavos would be stupid and refusing pay up would put people off dooing further business with the Westerosi Crown (and with the combination of civil war and Winter, they might even need more loans for rebuilding)

What would be the economic consequences, in Essos and Westeros, of Braavos being successfully put to dragonfire?

[aryagonnakill#2]

The debt won't be hard to pay.  It was 6 million dragons and the church forgave almost a million.  3 more belongs to the Lannisters who in all likelihood wont be paid back by whoever takes the throne, that's 4 out of 6 gone.  The remaining balance can be paid off in time without problems.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

As everybody else with a solid income: One coin at a time. Preferentially while not fighting an expensive war and having no access to 70% of its tax base.

2 hours ago, The Wolves said:

As far as we know Westeros was not in debt while Aerys was king Tywin made sure of that. Plus Aerys had a lot of money when Robert say his disgusting self on that ugly throne. 

Robert and his dumb band of counsel members are defiantly to blame for Westeros being in debt. 

Not exactly. Tywin actually ruined the long term income of the IT with his tax policy favoring KL, Oldtown and Lannisport. Duskendale was the most egregious example for the downsides of that policy, but Driftmark and the other parts of the Crownlands are hardly in better shape - and they provided the majority of the IT's income.

[Starfell]

19 minutes ago, Jaak said:

What would be the economic consequences, in Essos and Westeros, of Braavos being successfully put to dragonfire?

Bad, obviously.

But it's not going to happen, Dany is the only one with dragons, she's not going to raze a city (let alone the only actively abolitionist society in Essos) over a legitimate economic dispute. Even if she were inclined to do so, Drogon is no Balerion and Drogon can't protect her from the Faceless men. King's Landing, on the other hand, I'd give 50/50 odds

[Bael's Bastard]

5 hours ago, DasallmaechtigeJ said:

While Robert indeed spent a lot, we shouldn't forget that it was not him who bankrupted Westeros. The throne was already heavily in debt when he revolted, Aegon the Unworthy f.e. blew away half the kingdom...

Ned implies the opposite when he says, "Aerys Targaryen left a treasury flowing with gold."

[BanzaiZ]

Payment plans. A decent chunk of debt was waved thanks to a monumentally stupid decision on Cersei's part, but I'd try my damnedest to make sure that forgiveness was still binding.

If Aegon/Dany takes the throne, I highly doubt the Lannisters will ever see a single copper star of the debt owed to them. They'll be lucky to keep their heads and Casterly Rock with the way things are going for them. 

So with that in mind, I owe 2-3 million dragons to the Iron Bank and associated other debtors. Set up a payment plan as best I can that will take a heavier share from less war torn lands in the beginning, and then drop to a lower percent for them while transitioning the the higher rate for the North, Riverlands, etc. as they rebuild to balance out the taxes and also allow for said lands to recover. Then settle on a centralized method of taxation that doesn't overwhelmingly favor the three largest cities in Westeros and leave many of the minor lands on the borderline. That's going to mean hauling every maester that has a yellow gold or copper link to King's Landing for a council to hammer it out.

[oopeed]

Has anyone thought that apparently the IB wants no Targaryen king with dragons to sit the IT ever. Even if it's an abolitionist girl. Otherwise a certain banker would have traveled to Mereen instead of The Wall... So, eff them in the arse and set fire to their city if they don't present any deal that is not abusive on a Targaryen restorated rule... Dany could bide her time until the dragons become full size and then burn the crap out of Braavos if she ever becomes queen.

12 hours ago, DasallmaechtigeJ said:

While Robert indeed spent a lot, we shouldn't forget that it was not him who bankrupted Westeros. The throne was already heavily in debt when he revolted, Aegon the Unworthy f.e. blew away half the kingdom...

I believe Ned explicitly says that the Targaryen treasury had an amount of golden coins in the seven figures. (I still wonder how anyone could blow away that much money, even taking into account the swindling from LF). I don't think GRRM gave a real thought on how money worked to reflect a real-life example, but yet, that levels of spending are just ridiculous.... Jon Arryn and Littlefinger are to blame for this given how they failed to put in place a monetary policy that balanced the spending (and they had 13 years to think about it.)

3 hours ago, BanzaiZ said:

Payment plans. A decent chunk of debt was waved thanks to a monumentally stupid decision on Cersei's part, but I'd try my damnedest to make sure that forgiveness was still binding.

If Aegon/Dany takes the throne, I highly doubt the Lannisters will ever see a single copper star of the debt owed to them. They'll be lucky to keep their heads and Casterly Rock with the way things are going for them. 

So with that in mind, I owe 2-3 million dragons to the Iron Bank and associated other debtors. Set up a payment plan as best I can that will take a heavier share from less war torn lands in the beginning, and then drop to a lower percent for them while transitioning the the higher rate for the North, Riverlands, etc. as they rebuild to balance out the taxes and also allow for said lands to recover. Then settle on a centralized method of taxation that doesn't overwhelmingly favor the three largest cities in Westeros and leave many of the minor lands on the borderline. That's going to mean hauling every maester that has a yellow gold or copper link to King's Landing for a council to hammer it out.

I don't know, if Tyrion ends up as Lord of the Rock and a friendly king ends up in the IT, let's say a certain northern bastard, I could see him at least receiving a part after negotiations. If he proves useful to the mother of dragons, she may be also inclined to at least honour part of the debt in a very long term.

Again, depending on who's king/queen, the North and Riverlands may be lost to the IT forever, which means no taxes from there. A centralized taxation could work but I don't know to what extent if over half of the realm is gone.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

If I ever learned something in my (very bad) experiences with banks, it's that banks expect at least 1. acknowledgement of the debt and 2. commitment to make payments. So, it's not like the Iron Bank will show up to the King and demand the six millions dragons to be pay at once. They just want to know that the Crown will take the debt seriously. That's why they are backing up Stannis: because he's committed to do so.

15 hours ago, DasallmaechtigeJ said:

While Robert indeed spent a lot, we shouldn't forget that it was not him who bankrupted Westeros. The throne was already heavily in debt when he revolted, Aegon the Unworthy f.e. blew away half the kingdom...

As said above, the realm was fine after Aerys. In any case, the one in fault was the Master of Coin too, because he just kept asking for money, and he probably has hidden the half of it.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

51 minutes ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

As said above, the realm was fine after Aerys. In any case, the one in fault was the Master of Coin too, because he just kept asking for money, and he probably has hidden the half of it.

As I said above (as well), that was most likely just the short term benefit of Tywin's tax policy being a net negative in the long run. The IT got to receive three quarters of its income from the Crownlands - and we know that those suffered heavily from it. It drove the Darklyns to the Defiance after all.

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

11 hours ago, Bright Blue Eyes said:

As everybody else with a solid income: One coin at a time. Preferentially while not fighting an expensive war and having no access to 70% of its tax base.

Not exactly. Tywin actually ruined the long term income of the IT with his tax policy favoring KL, Oldtown and Lannisport. Duskendale was the most egregious example for the downsides of that policy, but Driftmark and the other parts of the Crownlands are hardly in better shape - and they provided the majority of the IT's income.

Duuuuuuuude! Exactly. I think you are the only one I've ever seen point this out besides me. It was short term gain along side long term loss. Look at Greece, Puerto Rico now;  but look at Portugal doing the medieval ages.

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

1 hour ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

If I ever learned something in my (very bad) experiences with banks, it's that banks expect at least 1. acknowledgement of the debt and 2. commitment to make payments. So, it's not like the Iron Bank will show up to the King and demand the six millions dragons to be pay at once. They just want to know that the Crown will take the debt seriously. That's why they are backing up Stannis: because he's committed to do so.

As said above, the realm was fine after Aerys. In any case, the one in fault was the Master of Coin too, because he just kept asking for money, and he probably has hidden the half of it.

I agree with this. Ever see that new show called The Catch? One character steals from a royal Middle eastern family by skimming. "Oh it cost 10 Million for a down payment." But in reality it only cost 6 or 5 million.

That on top of short term gain and long term loss like Detroit selling off its tolls(Chicago did the same thing) and parking meters. Yeah they got a quick buck but lost millions in the long run. 

So long term loss meets hardcore skimming meets Reaganomics = westeros debt crisis.