Danaerys's Heir

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Regardless of the success of Stannis or Robb, they at least acknowledged the problem and tried to deal with it.

 

No, it's an really important question for Dany. Invading Westeros to regain the IT for her family (and the good of the Westerosi demaning a Targ royal line), killing tens or hundreds of thousands in the process and resulting in at least three generations of strive, when it is absolutely certain that two or three generations later the same slaughter will repeat itself, instead of just staying out altogether... kinda sociopathic. Or at least extremely dumb.

[Ser Leftwich]

7 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said:

Is it not prophecised that dany will die in childbirth?

 

Where is this prophecy from?

[norwaywolf123]

6 minutes ago, Ser Leftwich said:

Where is this prophecy from?

Mirri maz dur

[Ser Leftwich]

1 minute ago, norwaywolf123 said:

Mirri maz dur

Nothing about MMD's prophecy implies that Dany will die in childbirth.

[norwaywolf123]

7 minutes ago, Ser Leftwich said:

Nothing about MMD's prophecy implies that Dany will die in childbirth.

When you bear a living child, you will return to him(Drogo)

[Bright Blue Eyes]

The other way round. Drogo will return to her/the living. As in "no chance in hell that that actually happens."

[Ser Leftwich]

15 minutes ago, norwaywolf123 said:

When you bear a living child, you will return to him(Drogo)

"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east," said Mirri Maz Duur. "When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before."  - AGOT p. 635

 

[Skahaz mo Kandaq]

9 hours ago, Mason2 said:

Hey long time viewer just felt this needed to be posted because I never see this topic discussed.  Danaerys knows that she cannot have a child, do you think she has thought about if or when she tries to be Queen of Westeros, who would rule after her death?

Queen Daenerys is 17 years old.  She has a very, very long life ahead of her.  It looks like her womb became active again during the last chapter of ADWD.  It is more likely than not, that she can bear children.  I would love for her to rule Essos, Westeros, and the Summer Isles.

[Arya_Stormborn]

Lol, I just want to say that at first I misread the title of this thread as "Daenerys's Hair."

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Dany hasn't thought about it because she doesn't have immediate plans to return to Westeros. And it's not a subject she has given too much thought about either, even when she does acknowledges the chance of her being barren. As far as I understand, she does have a period, she is just not careful about it and doesn't really mind. She keeps having sex with Daario and didn't even realise she had skipped a couple of months. There might be a chance in which she realises she had been pregnant and miscarried.

2 hours ago, Arya_Stormborn said:

Lol, I just want to say that at first I misread the title of this thread as "Daenerys's Hair."

Two of us

 

[Lord Varys]

On 29.4.2016 at 1:03 AM, Bright Blue Eyes said:

Regardless of the success of Stannis or Robb, they at least acknowledged the problem and tried to deal with it.

 

No, it's an really important question for Dany. Invading Westeros to regain the IT for her family (and the good of the Westerosi demaning a Targ royal line), killing tens or hundreds of thousands in the process and resulting in at least three generations of strive, when it is absolutely certain that two or three generations later the same slaughter will repeat itself, instead of just staying out altogether... kinda sociopathic. Or at least extremely dumb.

For Dany, it will only become a problem after the series is over. Assuming she survives. You cannot prove a negative. If there is not much time for a lot of fucking in Dany's future chapters then the fertility question might remain unsolved. And historically there are monarchs who ruled without a clear successfully for decades.

And if she has absolute power she could even anoint an heir she is not related with at all simply by enforcing her will. But that most likely wouldn't be necessary. There are a lot of distant Targaryen cousins left. If she fails to produce a child for decades or fears that would be the case she could always name an heir presumptive early on in her reign.

But the idea that conquerors and warlords have to have clear heirs in case they die is just not true. Aegon and his sister-wives apparently didn't, and neither does Aegon right now. Not to mention that Shireen is a joke as an heir just as any young child is. If there is a war you either win it or you die. The chances that some war of conquest will be continued in the name of your infant child is very unlikely (unless said child is seen as the legitimate monarch).

And whatever we think we know about Dany's health - having a period does not equal being fertile. But if assume she was pregnant in the Dothraki Sea and lost that child then she could easily get pregnant again. And if she does that then she might not think she is barren regardless whether she'll ever give birth to a legitimate child - or a child from a consort who would be likely to inherit Westeros from her.

[Dorian Martell]

On 4/29/2016 at 10:08 AM, Princess of Dragonflies said:

Although I hadn't put all that together, which is awesome BTW, I did always think that the bleeding was a miscarriage and assumed it was Dario's

It could be Dario's or Hidzar's. Da-Dum 

On 4/29/2016 at 10:58 AM, Raisin(g) Bran 2 Greenseer said:

Thanks for that. To add to the Gregor part, the spear head was leaf shaped, was it not?

It was 

[Endymion I Targaryen]

Dany has thought so much of that prophecy that I think it will be proven false,like the Stallion one.What if she pays again with death to have life?

[oopeed]

On 29/4/2016 at 11:44 AM, Lord Varys said:

Dany doesn't have to have an heir of her own body. She could just name an heir. Either a Jon Snow who has been recognized and acknowledged by her as Rhaegar's son (and legitimized should that be necessary), a legitimized Tyrion Targaryen, an infant child fathered by Aegon on Arianne Martell (or whoever else Aegon is going to marry), a child of either Jon Snow's or a legitimized Tyrion, or just some random Targaryen cousin through the female line whose face and manners she likes - if such a person ends up claiming one of her dragons it should work. Hell, she could perhaps even anoint some random dude her depending on the amount of power she'll have.

 

A legitimized Jon Snow is up in succession line over Dany, so Dany would be his heir, not the other way around since he'd be son of the eldest child of Aerys II, and the same goes for a secret-targ Tyrion who would be the older than Viserys and Dany thus the next in line after the line of Rhaegar ends.... So none is really an option.

Under the current circumstances, Stannis would actually be the closest trueborn relative of Dany if I recall correctly, and thus the heir.

I like to think that this points out to a division of Westeros, which is likely unless Sansa or Jon end up marrying whoever sits the Iron Throne given how they are both potential heirs to over half of Westeros. Maybe Dany was never intended to give birth to any child and her role is just to be the mother of dragons... Same goes for Jon, would he be even able to father a child? and Tyrion as king would result in a messy succession since he is known for frequent whoring and both of his wives are missing.

[the conquering bastard 25]

On 4/29/2016 at 1:08 PM, Princess of Dragonflies said:

Although I hadn't put all that together, which is awesome BTW, I did always think that the bleeding was a miscarriage and assumed it was Dario's

Thank you for this I thought i was the only one that saw that. 

 

Yet there is no way in hell that Dany holds the crown at the end of this.

If i'm right shes Mary Queen of Scots. Eventually shit going to catch up to her and its the end.of Danys regime.

Dany=Rheanyra. A lot of Danys past and the way her followers view her is similar to the 'realms delight.'

I think one Maester said that after the two betrayers the queen had forgottwn how to trust and that was in part how she lost the love of the peopke but also why most of her lords abandoned her.

 

Westeros will want nothing to do with Dany.  Who will sit at the head of a Dothroki cavalry , Iron born navy and unsullied slave infantry army along with tens of thousands of useles mouths would have survived with Dany from the beginning. I say this now and i say this will a keen sense of history. That nothing knits a broken and fractured realms together quicker than anything is an invading army. Look at history the kings of the rock and reach banned together to fight Aegon. Which in turned gave Torrehen Stark the wisdom to bend the knee. 

Dany will be viewed with hatred not to mention depending on what the know about her will.work against her as well.

People will have heard some rumor of her brothers death. Its reached Dornish ears that she stood by while her husband killed her brother. Depending upon which of Quentyn Martells shields reach home will depend upon what story is told to Doran martell and Yronwood whos not going to be happy that his heir is dead! If its drinkwater well.... He already told Selmy the type of truth he plans on telling Doran and Yronwood.  None of which will flatter Dany or cast her in a very good light. Thats just the Dornish the very support that she was depending on. Oldtown might end up closing her gates because Vic is by her side and... Well theyve sworn their allegiance elsewhere (Euron). Then given the high septons prophecy that if Oldtown stood against the Dragon it would burn. Not to mention i get the feeling they will have always sworn themselves.to a different dragon. The same could be said of the Redwyns. The Tyrells well you know where I am leaning. The North might hold aloof for the time being which in turn might hold the Trident and Vale aloof as well. The wild card in this case is the West. But which ever side gets the N,V,T block. Danny has nothing to offer them nothing but more War. Durnobg winter after a different war over a different dynastic crisis. Putting Dany in Westeros politics after all of this only cause.for more war and if she cant produce an heir then its all for naught. Better for her to rebuild the Valyrian Freehold with Dragonstone being her border.

 

 

 

[Lord Varys]

8 hours ago, Merengues said:

A legitimized Jon Snow is up in succession line over Dany, so Dany would be his heir, not the other way around since he'd be son of the eldest child of Aerys II, and the same goes for a secret-targ Tyrion who would be the older than Viserys and Dany thus the next in line after the line of Rhaegar ends.... So none is really an option.

Under the current circumstances, Stannis would actually be the closest trueborn relative of Dany if I recall correctly, and thus the heir.

I like to think that this points out to a division of Westeros, which is likely unless Sansa or Jon end up marrying whoever sits the Iron Throne given how they are both potential heirs to over half of Westeros. Maybe Dany was never intended to give birth to any child and her role is just to be the mother of dragons... Same goes for Jon, would he be even able to father a child? and Tyrion as king would result in a messy succession since he is known for frequent whoring and both of his wives are missing.

You are only mentioning technicalities that do not matter. If Daenerys I Targaryen rules from the Iron Throne as Queen Regnant over the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men then this will by the right of conquest as much as by the right of her Targaryen blood. She may pass over or remove some obstacles in her path, but other kings did the same.

Princess Rhaenys and Laenor Velaryon were seen as the true heirs of Jaehaerys I but nothing came of that, just as later Princess Vaella and Prince Maegor seemed to have as good or even better legal claims as Aegon V. Nothing came of that, either.

But Daenerys might not even have bad intentions by passing over Jon Snow - his Targaryen ancestry might only be revealed after she has ascended the throne, and Jon Snow might actually be dependent on a Targaryen monarch to accept the story of his heritage and thus acknowledge him as a Targaryen prince or heir (just some guy telling such a story shouldn't convince anyone).

Tyrion's case is similar, too. If he is Aerys' bastard and eventually legitimized it will be Queen Daenerys I Targaryen who is going to legitimize him, no one else. And there might easily be strings to such a legal act attached - for one, that he is only getting the throne after her, not before her.

But technically the Targaryen succession is very muddled right now due to Robert's usurpation. Aerys II's chosen heir was Prince Viserys, not Prince Aegon or Princess Rhaenys, and Viserys III was crowned the last Targaryen king on Dragonstone after his father's death. Viserys III named his sister Daenerys Stormborn his heir who is styled 'Princess of Dragonstone' in AGoT.

In the eyes of the world Daenerys is the last scion of House Targaryen right now and anyone championing her cause should have no trouble to dismiss any rival claims like those of Aegon, Jon Snow, or Stannis because they can claim Viserys III was the last crowned Targaryen king by the choice of Aerys II, just as Daenerys I is the chosen heir of Viserys III.

Prince Aegon was never anointed as the Targaryen heir nor was the court/king ever aware (as far as we know) that Rhaegar had a son by Lyanna Stark. Princes who are born in obscurity and never recognized or acknowledged by the king are seldom seen as the king's heirs or acknowledged as royal children at all.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

You are only mentioning technicalities that do not matter. If Daenerys I Targaryen rules from the Iron Throne as Queen Regnant over the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men then this will by the right of conquest as much as by the right of her Targaryen blood. She may pass over or remove some obstacles in her path, but other kings did the same.

Princess Rhaenys and Laenor Velaryon were seen as the true heirs of Jaehaerys I but nothing came of that, just as later Princess Vaella and Prince Maegor seemed to have as good or even better legal claims as Aegon V. Nothing came of that, either.

But Daenerys might not even have bad intentions by passing over Jon Snow - his Targaryen ancestry might only be revealed after she has ascended the throne, and Jon Snow might actually be dependent on a Targaryen monarch to accept the story of his heritage and thus acknowledge him as a Targaryen prince or heir (just some guy telling such a story shouldn't convince anyone).

Tyrion's case is similar, too. If he is Aerys' bastard and eventually legitimized it will be Queen Daenerys I Targaryen who is going to legitimize him, no one else. And there might easily be strings to such a legal act attached - for one, that he is only getting the throne after her, not before her.

But technically the Targaryen succession is very muddled right now due to Robert's usurpation. Aerys II's chosen heir was Prince Viserys, not Prince Aegon or Princess Rhaenys, and Viserys III was crowned the last Targaryen king on Dragonstone after his father's death. Viserys III named his sister Daenerys Stormborn his heir who is styled 'Princess of Dragonstone' in AGoT.

In the eyes of the world Daenerys is the last scion of House Targaryen right now and anyone championing her cause should have no trouble to dismiss any rival claims like those of Aegon, Jon Snow, or Stannis because they can claim Viserys III was the last crowned Targaryen king by the choice of Aerys II, just as Daenerys I is the chosen heir of Viserys III.

Prince Aegon was never anointed as the Targaryen heir nor was the court/king ever aware (as far as we know) that Rhaegar had a son by Lyanna Stark. Princes who are born in obscurity and never recognized or acknowledged by the king are seldom seen as the king's heirs or acknowledged as royal children at all.

There were about 15 men and women who had a better claim to the English Throne than Henry Tudor did.  But, his victories at Bosworth and Stoke settled the issue.

As you say, if Dany conquers Westeros then she's Queen.  That's the end of the story.  And, if she were to issue a decree of legitimacy in favour of Jon (and/or Tyrion) it would be on the basis that they came behind her in the line of succession.  All that Dany needs is a sufficiently good claim to the Iron Throne (and she surely does, as the surviving legitimate child of Aerys II, and legal heir of Viserys III) to back her claim by right of conquest.

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

There were about 15 men and women who had a better claim to the English Throne than Henry Tudor did.  But, his victories at Bosworth and Stoke settled the issue.

As you say, if Dany conquers Westeros then she's Queen.  That's the end of the story.  And, if she were to issue a decree of legitimacy in favour of Jon (and/or Tyrion) it would be on the basis that they came behind her in the line of succession.  All that Dany needs is a sufficiently good claim to the Iron Throne (and she surely does, as the surviving legitimate child of Aerys II, and legal heir of Viserys III) to back her claim by right of conquest.

And unlike all those descendants of Richard of York Henry Tudor had to ignore it is very unlikely that anyone aside from Aegon is actually going to counter Daenerys' claim when she finally arrives.

[If I remember stuff right then the original plan was to make Henry king by right of his wife when the first talk about a marriage between Elizabeth of York came up shortly after Richard's usurpation - but when Henry then actually toppled Richard III and won the battles he actually invoked 'right of conquest' and considered himself the rightful king, pretty much ignoring the legal claim of his later wife and effectively sidelining her during his reign.]

It is not that Jon Snow or Tyrion would be recognized and well-known members/descendants of the royal family - one is a guy (previously?) serving as the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch who was brought up as a bastard son of the Lord of Winterfell, and the other has been condemned as a kinslayer and kingslayer in Westeros, making it very unlikely he will be able to make any legal claims.

I could see Tyrion Targaryen taking the Iron Throne by force, too, if becomes a dragonrider and the leader/figurehead of Dany's people should she die before she ever arrives in Westeros. But presumably very few people - if any at all - would actually welcome Tyrion I Targaryen in Westeros or care about any legal claims he puts forth. He would have to defeat his enemies in the field, most likely repeatedly and very decisively.

@the conquering bastard 25

Your scenario could make some sense if - and only if - the Others weren't playing a big role in all that, and there wasn't that dream Dany had in AGoT suggesting that she will either defeat them or at least die fighting against them.

But the idea that Dany leading an army of Dothraki or other foreign invaders which results in her not being welcomed in Westeros doesn't mean she'll not crush all her enemies and end up as the unquestioned Queen on the Iron Throne in the end. The story could easily be about Dany cleansing Westeros with fire and blood and being successful at that. That wouldn't be surprising at all.

There most likely will be war between Aegon and Dany, and Dany will most certainly win that war - possibly because she no longer needs and Westerosi support because she has a huge army and navy and is smart enough to land at KL and secure the Iron Throne first before dispatching her generals and dragonriders to put down any resistance that is left in the field.

It is going to take quite some time until Dany arrives in Westeros and every region in Westeros - perhaps even the Vale - is going to bleed out even further in the meantime. Winter has come, too, which means that even without the Others people will die like flies even without famine and plagues. Even a united Westeros under Aegon VI might not have the strength to defeat Daenerys I in open battle (that would depend for whom the Vale is eventually declaring, how much the Reach and Dorne will be weakened during Aegon's campaign to take the throne, and where the Riverlands and the Westerlands stand when Dany comes - there might be a paradoxical situation in which the Lannisters actually end up siding with Dany to avenge Tommen/Myrcella/Cersei who were killed/humiliated by Aegon).

But basically the idea of a Westeros uniting against Dany makes no sense in any scenario keeping in mind that the Others are coming. Perhaps Dany does not survive the final battle against the Others, but she most certainly will conquer and sit the Iron Throne.

[Jerry Drake]

On 4/29/2016 at 7:08 PM, Princess of Dragonflies said:

Although I hadn't put all that together, which is awesome BTW, I did always think that the bleeding was a miscarriage and assumed it was Dario's

Reading the 'Meereeneese Blot' essays, I'm more willing to believe that the potential baby was Hidahr's [or whatever his name was]. If it really is written as the essays suggest - that marrying into Meereeneese aristocracy is a path of peace while Daario represents the path of war - I am more inclined to trust the version in which Danaerys finally decides to follow the warpath, perhaps even inducing the miscarriage herself, making a 'clean' (well extremely messy in fact) break with her attempts be the peaceful ruler of Slavers' Bay.

[SeanF]

27 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And unlike all those descendants of Richard of York Henry Tudor had to ignore it is very unlikely that anyone aside from Aegon is actually going to counter Daenerys' claim when she finally arrives.

[If I remember stuff right then the original plan was to make Henry king by right of his wife when the first talk about a marriage between Elizabeth of York came up shortly after Richard's usurpation - but when Henry then actually toppled Richard III and won the battles he actually invoked 'right of conquest' and considered himself the rightful king, pretty much ignoring the legal claim of his later wife and effectively sidelining her during his reign.]

It is not that Jon Snow or Tyrion would be recognized and well-known members/descendants of the royal family - one is a guy (previously?) serving as the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch who was brought up as a bastard son of the Lord of Winterfell, and the other has been condemned as a kinslayer and kingslayer in Westeros, making it very unlikely he will be able to make any legal claims.

I could see Tyrion Targaryen taking the Iron Throne by force, too, if becomes a dragonrider and the leader/figurehead of Dany's people should she die before she ever arrives in Westeros. But presumably very few people - if any at all - would actually welcome Tyrion I Targaryen in Westeros or care about any legal claims he puts forth. He would have to defeat his enemies in the field, most likely repeatedly and very decisively.

@the conquering bastard 25

Your scenario could make some sense if - and only if - the Others weren't playing a big role in all that, and there wasn't that dream Dany had in AGoT suggesting that she will either defeat them or at least die fighting against them.

But the idea that Dany leading an army of Dothraki or other foreign invaders which results in her not being welcomed in Westeros doesn't mean she'll not crush all her enemies and end up as the unquestioned Queen on the Iron Throne in the end. The story could easily be about Dany cleansing Westeros with fire and blood and being successful at that. That wouldn't be surprising at all.

There most likely will be war between Aegon and Dany, and Dany will most certainly win that war - possibly because she no longer needs and Westerosi support because she has a huge army and navy and is smart enough to land at KL and secure the Iron Throne first before dispatching her generals and dragonriders to put down any resistance that is left in the field.

It is going to take quite some time until Dany arrives in Westeros and every region in Westeros - perhaps even the Vale - is going to bleed out even further in the meantime. Winter has come, too, which means that even without the Others people will die like flies even without famine and plagues. Even a united Westeros under Aegon VI might not have the strength to defeat Daenerys I in open battle (that would depend for whom the Vale is eventually declaring, how much the Reach and Dorne will be weakened during Aegon's campaign to take the throne, and where the Riverlands and the Westerlands stand when Dany comes - there might be a paradoxical situation in which the Lannisters actually end up siding with Dany to avenge Tommen/Myrcella/Cersei who were killed/humiliated by Aegon).

But basically the idea of a Westeros uniting against Dany makes no sense in any scenario keeping in mind that the Others are coming. Perhaps Dany does not survive the final battle against the Others, but she most certainly will conquer and sit the Iron Throne.

And suppose for the sake of argument that Dany cannot bear another child, then it would be very much in her interest, and the interests of Jon or Tyrion (if legitimised) to strike an agreement whereby they, or their own heirs, then become her heirs.