Are there any Targaryen Bastards?

[Lord Wraith]

I do have a crackpot idea that Darkstar is actually the non poisoned Jaehaerys, son of Aerys and Rhaelle. Pure speculation but some hints are there in the books.

 

[Princess of Dragonflies]

20 hours ago, Lord Asher Forrester said:

About Darkstar i doubt it. The Mad king hated the dornish a lot soi don't think even rape would be in the list of things he would do with a dornish girl, but who knows, he could be a total hypocrite just like Tywin Lannister.

 

Even if it is higly improbable I like to think that maybe other secret Targ bastard lines as the Blackfyre, maybe Aemond the one eyed dragon bastard descendents or other Viserys, Aegon II or Aegon IV descendents, imagine how cool would be if BloodRaven and Shiera Seastar had a son that carried their blood somewhere or to see a dark skinned dragonseed line from Nettles or Black Pearl. Maybe it would even be possible that Moqorro could have some dragon blood on him. Just crackpot thinking...

I'd definitely be on board with this.

3 hours ago, Brian Rioghbhardan said:

I've actually got a good theory on this. ifAerys did have a bastard then they'd have the last name Waters since they would have been born in the Crownlands. So as far as people we know this mostly leaves Aurane as our only option. BUT what if its someone we know who doesn't have the last name Waters? Someone who got to choose his own name because he'd been granted land and a title. I'm talking about Davos Seaworth, born in kingslanding, raised in fleabottom and parents unknown. And the only POV character with out any noble lineage. 

 

BTW this Plays into my own theory of Aery's being Azor Ahai and that the legend of the lightbringer he forged is actually a metaphor for getting a woman pregnant with a child that will eventually grow up to defeat the others. In which case just as AA failed to forge the lightbringer 2 times when sticking his sword water and a lion, then Aerys also sired 2 failed/broken lightbringers by sticking his dick into "water" and a "lion". Davos being from a low born mother in crownlands would thus represent "water" and like the 1st lightbringer is also broken (missing fingers). This websites Wiki also lists him as the only possible Human lightbringer for other reasons on their Lightbringer theories page.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Lightbringer/Theories

I had never read that before...is your theory posted somewhere?

54 minutes ago, the conquering bastard 25 said:

the time line for Cersei and Jamie being the mad kings doesnt fit.

Yet Tyrion is most definitely Aerys bastard. I will go to my grave with this belief. Until George disputs it himself as iirc he did about the incest twins.

When the question was asked Darkstar did cross my mind.

Yet Waters is a possibility if Aerys was worried about his kids he coukd have sent his bastard to his cousins to be raised. To keep him safe but close enough that he could keep an eye on him.

Was it ever stated who Aurane's mother was? I have a roll of tinfoil ready for this one lol

48 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said:

I do have a crackpot idea that Darkstar is actually the non poisoned Jaehaerys, son of Aerys and Rhaelle. Pure speculation but some hints are there in the books.

 

I'd be interested in hearing this idea!

[Brian Rioghbhardan]

4 hours ago, Princess of Dragonflies said:

I had never read that before...is your theory posted somewhere?

 

Yeah I wrote a post on it here

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/133624-spoilers-all-the-mad-king-aerys-azor-ahai/

it was mostly dismissed but I think it has more merit then a lot of other crackpot idea with strong followers. At it's core the theory is that Prophesy's and story's are rarely meant to be taken as literal. In the story of Azor Ahai, it's not actually him that's needed to defeat the darkness it's lightbringer the sword he forges. A "Sword" is often used as metaphor in ASOIAF for one's dick. And Azor Azai tempers his sword by sticking it into water, a lion and his wife, killing all three  as a result . Davos, Tyrion and Dany's mother's match those symbols and all died in child birth (technically we just know davos was an orphan). And Davos and Tyrion are both physically broken in some way like the first 2 attempts. Finally it's nice because you can draw connections between their being 3 dragons and 3 light bringers. You can even bestow the title of Prince that was promised onto Jon Snow and now everyones got themselves a cool prophesy title. 

So that's the heart of it, but as I was hoping to get others to build upon this idea and drum up discussion I also offered up one potential crackpot explanation for all this that would lend itself to a deeper understanding of Aerys Madness as being caused by unnatural forces and potential explanation behind the fire at summer hall. Basically it's that idea of "Targaryian Madness" is mostly slander against unpopular kings and much like the Rhaegar raping Lyanna is an intentional misdirect by GRRM. unlike other supposed mad kings Aery's was in fact mad, but for most of his life Aery's was described as very social and well loved person until he had a slow personality shift to madness. The seeds of his madness were sewn into him through magical forces as an unintended consequence of the Mysterious Magical fire ritual that was likely performed by the Ghost of High Heart and led to the tragedy at Summerhall. To be clear we do know the Ghost of the High Heart is one of the children of the forest and is the person who told Aery's father that he must marry him to his sister in order to bring about the prince that was promised and was at summerhall. We also know some sort dark magic ritual occured involving dragon eggs and that it was likely linked to the mysterious Valeryian prophesy that's alluded to. Aerys survived the fire but perhaps some sort of magic ensnared his mind that drove him subconsciously to fufill the prophesy by "forging the lightbringers" and that this influence on his mind resulted in his madness. It's also possible that his wildfire plan to burn all of Kingslanding to the ground was actually an attempt to succeed where Summerhall ritual failed by repeating the same ritual but on a much larger scale in hopes that would make it work.  Anyways a lot of this is just me spit balling, at it currently stands I don't expect all or maybe even most of it to be true but I think it does touch on many things that could turn out to be true. 

 

Rioghbhardan

[Lord Wraith]

21 hours ago, Princess of Dragonflies said:

I'd definitely be on board with this.

I had never read that before...is your theory posted somewhere?

Was it ever stated who Aurane's mother was? I have a roll of tinfoil ready for this one lol

I'd be interested in hearing this idea!

We have no idea who Aurane's mother is. Plenty of Valyrian looking people on Driftmark I'd wager.

As far as the Darkstar is a secret Targ is a work in progress along with several other ideas I have floating around in my head. I'll post it here when its done.

[Brian Rioghbhardan]

29 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said:

We have no idea who Aurane's mother is. Plenty of Valyrian looking people on Driftmark I'd wager.

I should probably mention that there 2 fairly strong reasons, based on ASOIAF texts as to why it's unlikely that Aurane Waters is the bastard son of Aerys. The first is that the World of Ice and Fire makes a point of mentioning that while Aerys II reputation for mistresses and sleeping around was only rivaled by Aegon the Unworthy (father of all the great bastards like bloodraven along with a shit ton of not so great bastard). It also explicitly states that after the death of his second born son in 274, who's death  he ultimately blamed on one of his mistresses, he officially swore off all mistresses and affairs and never slept with another woman besides his wife Rhaella and  Aurane Waters is listed as being born in 277-278. The second thing to note is that not only was Aery's more on the "mad king" side of things by this time, but it just so happens that 277 was when Aerys ended up being held captive in Duskendale for half a year. So it creates some serious doubts as to him siring Aurane. 

On the bright side Darkstar is still a possibility as he was born sometime between 270-273. Also Tyrion Lannister just so happened to be born in 273. Coincidentaly Joanna Lannister who had been residing in Castley Rock and had neither seen Aerys nor visited Kingslanding in countless years just so happened to stop by in Kingslanding in 272 to pay her respects to Aerys during a Great tourney being thrown to celebrate Aerys 10th year as King.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Probably,  but after the fate of Aegon and Rhaenys , and the madness of Aerys I don't think there will be a lot of people willing to step up and claim to be one .

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Darkstar is a legitimate Dayne, according to Ran/Elio who has seen the Dayne family tree. So... nope.

 

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

If we go simply by age and appearance, Aerys' possible bastards might be:

Tyrion

Jaime

Cersei

Dany (with Ashara Dayne?)

Darkstar 

Aurane

Davos

 

Dany is the only one who's too young to fit with the accepted timeframe of Aerys infidelities, but we know Ashara was carrying a bastard at that point and Aerys had been around her at Harrenhal and King's Landing, so the possibility exists. I'd say Davos is a bigger stretch, as he has no Targaryen features. Davos being Aerys' bastard is about as likely as Hot Pie being Robert's.

2 hours ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

Darkstar is a legitimate Dayne, according to Ran/Elio who has seen the Dayne family tree. So... nope.

Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella are legitimate Baratheons according to the family tree in TWoIaF.

https://31.media.tumblr.com/c4616f2d28135fb337eee88009e6bd74/tumblr_inline_nhoc01cSez1r6udoq.jpg

[the conquering bastard 25]

On 5/3/2016 at 1:29 AM, Princess of Dragonflies said:

I'd definitely be on board with this.

I had never read that before...is your theory posted somewhere?

Was it ever stated who Aurane's mother was? I have a roll of tinfoil ready for this one lol

I'd be interested in hearing this idea!

Its speculation based on the question. Aerys gave up whorig around the time of Viserys birth. Viserys and Waters would be around the same age. Given his paranoia that his kids were being killed he could have sent his bastard to Drifmark for safe keeping.

He does have an obsession with dragonstone. If Aerys bastard i could then see why he would want his family's ancestral seat.Ro

Do i truly believe waters is his bastard no. But its possible. Cersei does mention he looks like Rheagar. If Aerys bastard the similarly looks make sense

[Brian Rioghbhardan]

22 hours ago, Victarion Chainbreaker said:

Dany is the only one who's too young to fit with the accepted timeframe of Aerys infidelities,

Aurane is also too young to fit with the timeframe of Aerys infidelities assuming his suggested birth year given by wikis is accurate. It states 277 or 278 which is well after when aerys forswore sleeping around in 275. And as I mentioned earlier it's made less likely by the fact that Aerys was held captive for most of 277 in Duskendale. Yeah Davos is a real long shot. But the fact that he doesn't share any of the features of the Targs doesn't really mean anything. I'll remind you of Baelor Breakspear who Dunk was shocked to find out was a Targ in the first Dunk and Egg because he shared absolutely none of the Targ features. Jon Snow also doesn't share any of these features. And all the children Princess Rhaenyra had with Ser Strong had zero Targ features which is why everyone knew she didn't have them with her actual husband(who was likely gay). But yeah I don't recall Davos exhibiting any dragon dreams either. Granted that too isn't something all Targs do but it's telling that there really isn't a single hint of him being targ. I myself only suggested the idea because of my theory that TPTWP is the lightbringer and that aerys birthed 2 other broken lightbringers and I needed someone to represent "Water" since Tyrion is clearly "Lion".

 

16 hours ago, the conquering bastard 25 said:

Its speculation based on the question. Aerys gave up whorig around the time of Viserys birth.

Like I said above he gave up his whoring long before Aurane or Visery's birth. I think you're confusing Viserys birth with his short lived son Prince Jaehaery's. Here's the quote "The March of the kings madness seemed to apate for a time in 274 AC, when queen Rhaella gave birth to a son...But prince Jaehaerys died later that same year ....Afterwards, King Aerys fasted for a fortnight and made awalk of repentance across the city to the Great Sept, to pray with the High septon. on his return, his grace announced that henceforth he would sleep only with his lawful wife, Queen Rhaella. If the chronicles can be beleived, Aerys remained true to this vow, losing all interest in the charms of women from that day in 275 AC.

[Lord Asher Forrester]

6 hours ago, Brian Rioghbhardan said:

Aurane is also too young to fit with the timeframe of Aerys infidelities assuming his suggested birth year given by wikis is accurate. It states 277 or 278 which is well after when aerys forswore sleeping around in 275. And as I mentioned earlier it's made less likely by the fact that Aerys was held captive for most of 277 in Duskendale. Yeah Davos is a real long shot. But the fact that he doesn't share any of the features of the Targs doesn't really mean anything. I'll remind you of Baelor Breakspear who Dunk was shocked to find out was a Targ in the first Dunk and Egg because he shared absolutely none of the Targ features. Jon Snow also doesn't share any of these features. And all the children Princess Rhaenyra had with Ser Strong had zero Targ features which is why everyone knew she didn't have them with her actual husband(who was likely gay). But yeah I don't recall Davos exhibiting any dragon dreams either. Granted that too isn't something all Targs do but it's telling that there really isn't a single hint of him being targ. I myself only suggested the idea because of my theory that TPTWP is the lightbringer and that aerys birthed 2 other broken lightbringers and I needed someone to represent "Water" since Tyrion is clearly "Lion".

 

Like I said above he gave up his whoring long before Aurane or Visery's birth. I think you're confusing Viserys birth with his short lived son Prince Jaehaery's. Here's the quote "The March of the kings madness seemed to apate for a time in 274 AC, when queen Rhaella gave birth to a son...But prince Jaehaerys died later that same year ....Afterwards, King Aerys fasted for a fortnight and made awalk of repentance across the city to the Great Sept, to pray with the High septon. on his return, his grace announced that henceforth he would sleep only with his lawful wife, Queen Rhaella. If the chronicles can be beleived, Aerys remained true to this vow, losing all interest in the charms of women from that day in 275 AC.

Well we do know that AWOIAF is narrated by a maester who have multiple sources and not everything he states is actually absolute truth, as even he says a lot of times things like "...if Musshroom is to be trusted..." or "...on Septan Barth's account...". And for sure he got this information from Pycelle who is not a very trustable source in my view, and even if that was of common knowing don't mean Aerys could not had broken his promise in secret, so even if that that would be an impeachment in theory don't meant it would have to be in pratice.

[Brian Rioghbhardan]

True, GRRM does thrive as an unreliable narrator. 

[the conquering bastard 25]

history is an unreliable source

[Dorian Martell]

Jon Snow is very likely to be half Targ. A bastard? Maybe.....

[Jaehaerys Targaryen]

Why are you people seeing Targaryen bastards everywhere ????? It is insane!!!! The last Targaryen king died many years before the history in asoiaf and his son Rhaegar had only 2 children acknowledged  and there is no mention about Rhaegar's bastards anywhere. As for the R&L=J there is no proof. So stop looking for shadows and focus on the facts that we have!!

[Jaehaerys Targaryen]

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell said:

Jon Snow is very likely to be half Targ. A bastard? Maybe.....

It is not officially confirmed that Rhaegar and Lyanna had a child and that child is Jon Snow. Even if that is true, do we know that there was a wedding?? (i do not remember) Had Aerys II Targaryen acknowledged the wedding (HE WAS THE KING)?? Who can verify Jon's claim ?? and even if somebody does has he/she the power to formally acknowledge him if so with what authority??  The people also will not support as a king the formerly bastard of Ned. So do not think hard about Jon's ancestry because there is no legal way to confirm it in the eyes of the Westerosi except for Daenerys of course. He is a bastard and will remain so unless we have more concrete info. 

[Dorian Martell]

2 hours ago, Jaehaerys Targaryen said:

It is not officially confirmed that Rhaegar and Lyanna had a child and that child is Jon Snow. Even if that is true, do we know that there was a wedding?? (i do not remember) Had Aerys II Targaryen acknowledged the wedding (HE WAS THE KING)?? Who can verify Jon's claim ?? and even if somebody does has he/she the power to formally acknowledge him if so with what authority??  The people also will not support as a king the formerly bastard of Ned. So do not think hard about Jon's ancestry because there is no legal way to confirm it in the eyes of the Westerosi except for Daenerys of course. He is a bastard and will remain so unless we have more concrete info. 

Jon being part targ is far more likely than anyone else in the books, Tyrion, Jaime, Cersei, Davos or Hot pie. Also, legal confirmation means nothing. This is a fantasy series and the readers knowing is all that matters. Besides, if he was only a bastard, why were there 3 kingsguard members at the tower of Joy? How his lineage plays out in the story doesn't matter. His character will probably stay at the wall and fight the others, but the readers will know the song of ice and fire  

[JonCon's Red Beard]

11 hours ago, Jaehaerys Targaryen said:

It is not officially confirmed that Rhaegar and Lyanna had a child and that child is Jon Snow. Even if that is true, do we know that there was a wedding?? (i do not remember) Had Aerys II Targaryen acknowledged the wedding (HE WAS THE KING)?? Who can verify Jon's claim ?? and even if somebody does has he/she the power to formally acknowledge him if so with what authority??  The people also will not support as a king the formerly bastard of Ned. So do not think hard about Jon's ancestry because there is no legal way to confirm it in the eyes of the Westerosi except for Daenerys of course. He is a bastard and will remain so unless we have more concrete info. 

You don't need a King's confirmation to have a wedding: only one person performing it and a consummation. Otherwise, Egg's children getting married without his permission wouldn't be valid. If Rhaegar indeed married Lyanna, then their marriage is as valid as any other.

Now, I agree that what they lack is witness. If they married somehow in the Riverlands, then the possible witness were people who are now dead: the men who went with Rhaegar. Now, I have the theory that Rhaegar and his friends were hosted at Darry's for a while, and also was Lyanna, on her way to Brandon's wedding. So, it's possible they met there. According to the book, the Darrys are extinct, but some might have escaped to give us such info.

I think that, in the books, Jon's legitimacy won't matter as much as people believe. It will matter to certain relevant people like Jon (duh), Dany, Aegon and some of Jon's friends or allies. But don't forget that Rhaegar's image is still very present all over Westeros, and many people would rather follow a bastard of him than any of the people who were involved in the Wot5K.

[Wall Flower]

1 hour ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

You don't need a King's confirmation to have a wedding: only one person performing it and a consummation. Otherwise, Egg's children getting married without his permission wouldn't be valid. If Rhaegar indeed married Lyanna, then their marriage is as valid as any other.

Now, I agree that what they lack is witness. If they married somehow in the Riverlands, then the possible witness were people who are now dead: the men who went with Rhaegar. Now, I have the theory that Rhaegar and his friends were hosted at Darry's for a while, and also was Lyanna, on her way to Brandon's wedding. So, it's possible they met there. According to the book, the Darrys are extinct, but some might have escaped to give us such info.

I think that, in the books, Jon's legitimacy won't matter as much as people believe. It will matter to certain relevant people like Jon (duh), Dany, Aegon and some of Jon's friends or allies. But don't forget that Rhaegar's image is still very present all over Westeros, and many people would rather follow a bastard of him than any of the people who were involved in the Wot5K.

I think that some people will see Jon as legitimate and some people will see him as a bastard (and likely, others won't accept a relationship to Rhaegar at all). Most likely people will believe what they want to believe or what it suits their interests to believe. There may never be a definitive Westerosi ruling on Jon's legitimacy or paternity.

Let's face it, though, a realm that's had two of Jaime Lannister's bastards sitting on the Iron Throne is probably going to be a bit less fussy about things like legitimacy in the future.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Just now, Wall Flower said:

I think that some people will see Jon as legitimate and some people will see him as a bastard (and likely, others won't accept a relationship to Rhaegar at all). Most likely people will believe what they want to believe or what it suits their interests to believe. There may never be a definitive Westerosi ruling on Jon's legitimacy or paternity.

Let's face it, though, a realm that's had two of Jaime Lannister's bastards sitting on the Iron Throne is probably going to be a bit less fussy about things like legitimacy in the future.

Agree, they will likely accept anything. I'm sure that, even if Jon somehow ends up being King, he will be known as the Bastard King, even if he's not a bastard at all. We could have Rhaegar being brought back and saying "he's my legitimate son!!", and some would still doubt it.