Why and Where does the Dany/Jon love theory com from?

[TMIFairy]

2 hours ago, Yada-yada said:

Dany and Jon as a love story would put romance as a central theme in ASOIAF. There's is already a romance gone wrong that's the underlying theme in the series (R L).

I'd had thought that it would Cersei + Jaime ... a pure love which backfired somewhat ...

[Robert Baratheon's hammer]

I thought Dany was in love with Tyrion though? 

 

[John Doe]

It's basically fan fiction. People like Jon, people like Dany, so they have to come together and make babies. Of course there's nothing pointing to them ending up together in the books at all. 

[Yada-yada]

23 minutes ago, John Doe said:

It's basically fan fiction. People like Jon, people like Dany, so they have to come together and make babies. Of course there's nothing pointing to them ending up together in the books at all. 

Cool. I got the impression that a great part of the fandom considered Jon/Dany as a strong possibility, and that's what I don't like. Imagining pretty Jon/Dany babies is fine, though. 

As to the show, I will comment in spoiler tags i because apparently we're not supposed to comment the show in this area.

Spoiler

If show Jon and Dany bang mid-season, it only means that they are NOT endgame, or at least not destined for a great love story, otherwise they would wait until at least the last season for them to get together. Banging too soon means no love story I think.

 

[Lord Varys]

You don't have to like any character to realize that two heirs from an incestuous royal dynasty could make things a lot easier if they just married each other. Love does not have to figure into that at all, although it most likely will considering that Daenerys is go ride some sort of mount to love. And the guy she is going to love is not going to be some secondary character.

We get a pretty good picture about Dany's various consorts:

Quote

Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars. A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. . . . mother of dragons, bride of fire . . .

The first vision clearly depicts Dany's wedding night with Khal Drogo. The second vision seems to allude some obscure thing I can't decipher - a Greyjoy, perhaps a depressed Tyrion, perhaps someone else Dany is going to marry. But the third vision - the blue flower frowing from a chink in a wall of ice that fills the air with sweetness - is clearly Jon Snow.

Since the context here is clearly Daenerys as a bride of fire it seems quite clear that she is going to marry the people symbolized by those visions - Drogo, the unknown guy, Jon Snow.

[Yada-yada]

I don't think she'll marry a corpse on the prow of a ship. And I thought that related perhaps to Jorah and his greyscale... If she's not marrying unknown guy, there's no reason to assume she'll marry Jon Snow. 

[The Fattest Leech]

30 minutes ago, Robert Baratheon's hammer said:

I thought Dany was in love with Tyrion though? 

 

 

9 minutes ago, Yada-yada said:

Cool. I got the impression that a great part of the fandom considered Jon/Dany as a strong possibility, and that's what I don't like. Imagining pretty Jon/Dany babies is fine, though. 

As to the show, I would comment in spoiler tags if I knew how to because apparently we're not supposed to comment the show in this area.

If show Jon and Dany bang mid-season, it only means that they are NOT endgame, or at least not destined for a great love story, which of course doesn't necessarily mean anything for the books. 

 

3 minutes ago, Yada-yada said:

  Hide contents

I thought the second image was Jorah and his greyscale. And I don't think she's going to marry all 3 people in her vision. I think it relates to important events in her life. 

 

Guys, this is not the show thread and any show talk in the book forums #1 doesn't make sense, and #2 is against forum rules that are pinned on the main 'general' book forum page. 

Here is the post in case you have missed it before 

 

[Lord Varys]

The prophecy putting the visions in context is 'mother of dragons, bride of fire'. It means she is going to marry people. Perhaps there might also be a symbolic marriage involved (perhaps for the second guy) but Drogo and Jon Snow are real people and she will marry them.

Another comment of this sort happens also with 'mother of dragons, slayer of lies', and the visions show a king who seems to be Stannis, a cloth dragon on a pole in front of a cheering crown (most likely Aegon), and a stone beast breathing shadow fire that takes wing atop some tower (unclear who that's supposed to be). It seems quite clear that those people are supposed to be opposed to Daenerys in some fashion, claiming to be something they are not, and she will therefore slay them, either literally or figuratively and reveal that they are lies of some sort.

The basic fact remains that there are certain prophetic hints pointing in that direction even if we ignore the whole boy-girl thing there. Basically, Jon and Dany are the only young main characters who could really have some sort of romance in the novels. All the other children are far too young. And the main characters must have some sort of deep and meaningful connection in the end. This is the story of Daenerys Targaryen and Jon Snow to a pretty strong degree. It makes little sense to assume they are not going to hook up in a very real and meaningful sense.

[Yada-yada]

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

 

 

Guys, this is not the show thread and any show talk in the book forums #1 doesn't make sense, and #2 is against forum rules that are pinned on the main 'general' book forum page. 

Here is the post in case you have missed it before 

 

I'm sorry. I wasn't the one who mentioned the show, I just added a comment related to that, in spoiler tags, but my main point is really related to the books. I'll make sure not to mention the show anymore. thanks for the heads up.

[The Fattest Leech]

31 minutes ago, Yada-yada said:

I'm sorry. I wasn't the one who mentioned the show, I just added a comment related to that, in spoiler tags, but my main point is really related to the books. I'll make sure not to mention the show anymore. thanks for the heads up.

[The Bard of Banefort]

I interpreted the line "bride of fire" not as a literal reference to marriage, but rather as an act of binding or embracing fire. We see Dany embrace her family words, "Fire and Blood," at the end of ADWD, and her identity has been intertwined with her dragons since the end of AGOT ("if they are monsters, so am I"). By becoming the "bride of fire," Dany will fully embrace the philosophy of blood and fire, unleashing her dragons on the world and echoing the actions of the first Aegon. Beforehand, Dany has restrained herself, trying to be a peaceful ruler and finding herself miserable instead. Now she has put those efforts behind her, and has wed herself to her true desires.

[velo-knight]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I interpreted the line "bride of fire" not as a literal reference to marriage, but rather as an act of binding or embracing fire. We see Dany embrace her family words, "Fire and Blood," at the end of ADWD, and her identity has been intertwined with her dragons since the end of AGOT ("if they are monsters, so am I"). By becoming the "bride of fire," Dany will fully embrace the philosophy of blood and fire, unleashing her dragons on the world and echoing the actions of the first Aegon. Beforehand, Dany has restrained herself, trying to be a peaceful ruler and finding herself miserable instead. Now she has put those efforts behind her, and has wed herself to her true desires.

The problem with that is the darkling stream from the "bride of fire" set nearly perfectly matches her wedding to Drogo; and the blue flower in the wall of ice indicates at least some significance Jon will have to her / she to him, otherwise why the imagery?

[Graydon Hicks]

On 5/4/2016 at 1:39 AM, blckp said:

i dont get it, daenery is kings daughter, why some bastard whose father wasnt king would have better claim than last remaining kid of king ? because she is woman? i doubt daenerys would accept this as legit reason

its a primogeniture thing, which is applicable if jon is legit. the throne would have passed to rhaegar, then to rhaegar's eldest surviving son. it would only pass to viserys if rhaegar had not surviving children, then to daenerys, if viserys had no surviving children. do bastards inherent before aunts and uncles?

[Graydon Hicks]

On 5/4/2016 at 1:21 PM, Hos the Hostage said:

Speaking of 'natural' main guy - main girl match up, why no one ever ships Dany with Tyrion

because tyrion is like the ultimate bachelor, and we love him as such.

[Lord Varys]

8 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I interpreted the line "bride of fire" not as a literal reference to marriage, but rather as an act of binding or embracing fire. We see Dany embrace her family words, "Fire and Blood," at the end of ADWD, and her identity has been intertwined with her dragons since the end of AGOT ("if they are monsters, so am I"). By becoming the "bride of fire," Dany will fully embrace the philosophy of blood and fire, unleashing her dragons on the world and echoing the actions of the first Aegon. Beforehand, Dany has restrained herself, trying to be a peaceful ruler and finding herself miserable instead. Now she has put those efforts behind her, and has wed herself to her true desires.

Daenerys is a Targaryen. She is fire in the sense, marrying others. She does not have to marry fire, she is fire. At least symbolically. And as @velo-knight has said - the first vision of the darkling stream is her wedding night to Drogo. That makes it very likely the other visions in that set also refer to marriages, just as the three visions in the 'slayer of lies' set refer to lies she has to slay.

And then there is the part about the three mounts she has ride - one to bed (her Silver), one to dread (Drogon), and one to love (unknown). The third mount is very likely going to be connected to Jon somehow, suggesting that the true love of her life is only going to come later.

The blue flower filling the air with sweetness is also a very strong sign. Those visions are about Daenerys, and it smelling sweet indicates that she is going to like that flower very much. Which means she is likely going to be very much in love with Jon and going to quite a few very pleasant 'lord's kisses' from him...

[Lollygag]

6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The blue flower filling the air with sweetness is also a very strong sign. Those visions are about Daenerys, and it smelling sweet indicates that she is going to like that flower very much.

One should be careful about the use of "sweet" in this series.

Sweet—Lannisters & Viserys use “sweet sister”

AGOT Daenerys I He (Willem Darry) never left his bed, though, and the smell of sickness clung to him day and night, a hot, moist, sickly sweet odor.

Dany had no agents, no way of knowing what anyone was doing or thinking across the narrow sea, but she mistrusted Illyrio's sweet words as she mistrusted everything about Illyrio.

AGOT Tyrion I

His brother's smile curdled like sour milk. "Tyrion, my sweet brother," he said darkly, "there are times when you give me cause to wonder whose side you are on."

Tyrion's mouth was full of bread and fish. He took a swallow of strong black beer to wash it all down, and grinned up wolfishly at Jaime. "Why, Jaime, my sweet brother," he said, "you wound me. You know how much I love my family."

AGOT Eddard IV about Varys

His hand left powder stains on Ned's sleeve, and he smelled as foul and sweet as flowers on a grave.

AGOT Eddard V

Ned took another swallow of milk, trying not to gag on the sweetness of it.

AGOT Catelyn VI

"My brother is undoubtedly arrogant," Tyrion Lannister replied. "My father is the soul of avarice, and my sweet sister Cersei lusts for power with every waking breath. I, however, am innocent as a little lamb. Shall I bleat for you?" He grinned.

AGOT Daenerys VIII

A foul, sweet smell rose from the wound, so thick it almost choked her. The leaves were crusted with blood and pus, Drogo's breast black and glistening with corruption.

ACOK Prologue

Stannis nodded. "The Starks seek to steal half my kingdom, even as the Lannisters have stolen my throne and my own sweet brother the swords and service and strongholds that are mine by rights. They are all usurpers, and they are all my enemies."

ACOK Tyrion IV

"So. Blood for his pride, a chair for his ambition. Gold and land, that goes without saying. A sweet offer . . . yet sweets can be poisoned. 

ACOK Daenerys II

"Sweet smells are sometimes used to cover foul ones."

ACOK Sansa IV

"I see flowering hasn't made you any brighter," said Cersei. "Sansa, permit me to share a bit of womanly wisdom with you on this very special day. Love is poison. A sweet poison, yes, but it will kill you all the same."

ACOK Sansa VI

Sansa lifted the cup to her lips and took a sip. The wine was cloyingly sweet, but very strong.

"You can do better than that," Cersei said. "Drain the cup, Sansa. Your queen commands you."

It almost gagged her, but Sansa emptied the cup, gulping down the thick sweet wine until her head was swimming.

ACOK Daenerys V

"From Meereen I am sold to Qohor, and then to Pentos and the fat man with sweet stink in his hair.

ASOS Catelyn I

There was a smell of death about that room; a heavy smell, sweet and foul, clinging.

ASOS Arya XII

She paddled after the sharp red whisper of cold blood, the sweet cloying stench of death.

 

[Lord Varys]

@Lollygag

Are you trying to tell me that Jon Snow is going to be poisonous, suffering from some disease, or rotting alive (the latter could be true, considering that he is going to return from death). Sweetness isn't bad in principle, and certainly not in the context of the flower. I mean, come on, Ned not liking sweet milk is just his preference. It doesn't mean sweets are bad in principle, just as Stannis actually drinking salt water is no hint that all good people/manly man should follow his ridiculous example.

[Lollygag]

Just now, Lord Varys said:

@Lollygag

Are you trying to tell me that Jon Snow is going to be poisonous, suffering from some disease, or rotting alive (the latter could be true, considering that he is going to return from death). Sweetness isn't bad in principle, and certainly not in the context of the flower. I mean, come on, Ned not liking sweet milk is just his preference. It doesn't mean sweets are bad in principle, just as Stannis actually drinking salt water is no hint that all good people/manly man should follow his ridiculous example.

I'm not telling you anything. These are all GRRM's words.

I haven't decided personally but I'm most definitely not assuming the obvious given the long list above. Take it as you will.

[Lord Varys]

Well, to summarize the whole thing we have prophecy pointing towards a Dany-Jon marriage/romantic relationship as well as the structure of the entire series indicating that they will hook up in a more intimate/closer way than many other characters. They are the last scions of the former royal dynasty which used to marry close kin to each other, and their destinies seem to be very connected to the eventual fight against and victory over the Others. In addition, Daenerys hatched three dragons, not just one, one of which might eventually be claimed by Jon Snow.

And love can be a very quick thing in this series, just look at Robb and Jeyne, Tyrion and Shae, or Dany and Daario.

One can, of course, try to ignore or explain away all those hints. But one cannot deny that such hints are there.

If George did not want to overcome the rift between the Targaryens and the Starks he could just as well have made Daenerys another Daeron, the younger brother of Viserys III. Then there wouldn't be even the possibility of such a marriage. But now there is.

[Yada-yada]

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And love can be a very quick thing in this series, just look at Robb and Jeyne, Tyrion and Shae, or Dany and Daario.

 

You just gave 3 examples of lust. None of these were great love stories, and none of these were endgame for the characters involved. (Except maybe for Robb , it definitely ended his game). Even in the case of Robb, I think the point was not this great tragic love, but that he was just stupid. 

So quick love in this series is not usually something deep. 

Of course the vision means that Jon will be important for Dany, and I don't think anyone disputes that, regardless of any prophecy. 

I'm not against the Jon / Dany theory, I just  don't think it's as much a given as some people believe. While I don't discard these characters having a fling, I can't seen their trajectories as going in each other directions' or I believe there would be more foreshadowing. Still, of course it's not impossible, but I don't think there's deep foundation to support the theory.