Why and Where does the Dany/Jon love theory com from?

[Lord Varys]

There is no love story in those books that cannot be broken down to lust, if you want to call it that. At least not those that developed within the time frame of the books. But look at Rhaegar-Lyanna for comparison - a few days/weeks at Harrenhal, and then half a year or more. That is not great love story, that's hormones and adolescence (especially with Lyanna, who was 13-14 at Harrenhal).

Nobody ever said that Dany and Jon will be happy as long as Jaehaerys I and Alysanne. But if they both survive they are the people who most likely will rebuild Westeros together.

And those books do not really give us a lot of foreshadowing for people ending in bed together, do they? A lot of people fantasize about things but that's just fan shipping. Jeyne and Shae came out of nowhere, just as Daario, Hizdahr, Taena, Harry, etc. did. With Dany-Jon the romance part is not all that relevant. It is the symmetry of the incest and the reunion of legal claims.

There is no other potential match that has that. And quite honestly, most of the other main characters would essentially have pedo sex if they ended up in a sexual relationship. And that would be very sick if he had, say, Arya entering into a genuine romance where she has sex of her own free will. Girls being sold to their 'husbands' like Dany are sort of acceptable as child brides and the like but George writing a genuine romance with sex included for Arya and Bran would be too much and very odd.

It could work with Sansa but even there we are talking about 13-14-year-old.

[kissdbyfire]

@Lord Varys, what do you mean by "symmetry of the incest"?

[Lord Varys]

Just now, kissdbyfire said:

@Lord Varys, what do you mean by "symmetry of the incest"?

Well, that things go back to what they once were when the dragons ruled the kingdom, of course. And that, in a different sense, the sister of Rhaegar marry the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna to literally close the rift that was created between these two houses with the Harrenhal affair and its aftermath (the abduction/running away thing, whatever).

The Starks and Targaryens have to come together to resolve this crisis. This is a crucial element in this story. And if both sides would, for some strange reason, still have a lot of grievances at the time Dany arrives (no sure how the Stark gang will react to Aegon, but most likely not all that negatively, but still...) then such a marriage could heal those wounds and help to unite the Realm against the Others.

I hold the position that Dany is going to marry the two other dragon heads - Jon Snow, and Tyrion (Lannister, Hill, Targaryen, whatever), the bastard of Aerys II and Joanna - and together they will unite the Realm against the Others. Such a trinity could also help heal the wounds between the Lannisters on the one side and the Targaryens and Starks on the other. People eventually have to come to terms with the past and move on. Else this series is not going to get a proper ending.

[crowcrow]

On 7/23/2017 at 3:42 AM, kissdbyfire said:

And the only thing worse and more unlikely than Jon and Dany is Jon and Arya. 

Nobody gives a damn about your personal opinion regarding jonrya. nobody asked for it anyway, and you know it

[crowcrow]

On 7/16/2017 at 10:09 PM, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Seeing as how Jon was 14 and Arya was 9 the last time they saw each other it would indeed be "NOT normal" if Jon had anything beyond platonic love for her. Jon at 14 is basically a man grown and at 9 Arya is still a young girl.

Now if Arya and Jon reunite and Arya is a grown women at that time then that would be completely different.

Ehhh i also have a brother but never in my right mind would i think about him during an entire road trip, I would never think of him as my home, I would never compare him to my heart, I would never compare his body to my love interests when we're about to have sex and etc. (UGH damn it. I promised myself I won't start on debating about Jonrya again. anyway,that's all im gonna say.)

[Ralphis Baratheon]

1 hour ago, Reva said:

Ehhh i also have a brother but never in my right mind would i think about him during an entire road trip, I would never think of him as my home, I would never compare him to my heart, I would never compare his body to my love interests when we're about to have sex and etc. (UGH damn it. I promised myself I won't start on debating about Jonrya again. anyway,that's all im gonna say.)

That still doesn't change the fact that a 14 year old Jon Snow being sexually attracted to a 9 year old Arya would be creepy. 

[crowcrow]

Just now, Ralphis Baratheon said:

That still doesn't change the fact that a 14 year old Jon Snow being sexually attracted to a 9 year old Arya would be creepy. 

2

 of course, it doesn't. not yet. can't argue with that, it'd be creepy if Jon viewed her as a sexual object when he was 14. I'm just pointing out that the nature of their relationship isn't what you'd call normal or a standard sibling relationship (e.g: Robb/Jon, Tyrion/Jaimie, Arya/Bran). Their relationship is gray and a bit odd, and we even have Jon wondering if she ever was his sister.

 

But by the time they will reunite, both of them will be different, older and more mature.  And Jon will be completely different once he gets resurrected, and since Arya was the last thing in his head before his death, we can already imagine the possibilities. he will be so obsessed with getting Arya back, and when they reunite, they will barely recognize each other since they are so different now. and Arya and Jon are each other’s cure. Jon is exactly what Arya needs and Arya is exactly what Jon needs to be cured. (okay so the last paragraph was out of line lol so sorry about that, had to get it out of my system)

[Lord Lannister]

How Dany treats (f)Aegon will be revealing. Having been told to beware the mummer's dragon though, I don't expect for a moment she'll embrace him, given he threatens her claim to the Iron Throne. The same will go for Jon. If she finds out about his lineage, his claim threatens hers. If she doesn't, he's just the bastard of one of the "Usurper's dogs." In her head there's no difference between Tywin Lannister and Ned Stark. Hardly the foundation of a great romance. I don't see Dany entering a marriage where she's not the dominant figure in it at this point.

[Lord Varys]

31 minutes ago, Reva said:

But by the time they will reunite, both of them will be different, older and more mature.  And Jon will be completely different once he gets resurrected, and since Arya was the last thing in his head before his death, we can already imagine the possibilities. he will be so obsessed with getting Arya back, and when they reunite, they will barely recognize each other since they are so different now. and Arya and Jon are each other’s cure. Jon is exactly what Arya needs and Arya is exactly what Jon needs to be cured. (okay so the last paragraph was out of line lol so sorry about that, had to get it out of my system)

Arya has nothing to offer to anyone, nor is there anything other people can do to heal hear. She is a traumatized war orphan who developed into a psychopathic serial killer. Jon would be horrified if he learned what she did. And there is no reason to expect that Jon would be sexually or romantically attracted to this person. Vice versa, Jon himself should be far too soft of Arya's tastes. She has very little empathy left and uses mortal violence as a casual means to resolve problems.

27 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

How Dany treats (f)Aegon will be revealing. Having been told to beware the mummer's dragon though, I don't expect for a moment she'll embrace him, given he threatens her claim to the Iron Throne. The same will go for Jon. If she finds out about his lineage, his claim threatens hers. If she doesn't, he's just the bastard of one of the "Usurper's dogs." In her head there's no difference between Tywin Lannister and Ned Stark. Hardly the foundation of a great romance. I don't see Dany entering a marriage where she's not the dominant figure in it at this point.

Aegon and Jon have nothing in common. Aegon will be supported by Targaryen loyalists in his bid for the Iron Throne. But no Targaryen loyalist is ever going to support a Stark bastard telling a ridiculous tale about his true parentage. Jon could only become a Targaryen with Dany's (or Aegon's) support. If they denounce him as a fraud nobody is going to believe his story.

Chances are not so bad, though, that they hook before either of them knows that Jon is Rhaegar's son. Jon has already realized that dragons would make fine allies against the Others. He will contact Daenerys and try to gain her support in the fight against the Others when she comes to Westeros. He might even sent envoys to her in Essos should he finally learn that there is a Targaryen with dragons out there.

As to a marriage - Jon is not likely going to be able to boss Dany around all that much. But she actually likes her men strong and manly. Drogo and Daario are both ample proof of that. And Hizdahr shows that she is even willing to go along with weaker and less impressive men. But the chances that Jon could ever wear the pants in a marriage or alliance with the Mother of Dragons just isn't very likely. He was raised as a Stark bastard and may even be nothing but a Targaryen bastard or at least a child of controversial origins. He was never a royal prince nor a member of the royal family.

[kissdbyfire]

4 hours ago, Reva said:

Nobody gives a damn about your personal opinion regarding jonrya. nobody asked for it anyway, and you know it

Well, in case you haven't noticed (or understood), this is an open forum where anyone can post and voice their opinions on the subjects being discussed. Provded, of course, that they respect the rules, something I did. You? Not so much. 

[Winter's Cold]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Arya has nothing to offer to anyone, nor is there anything other people can do to heal hear. She is a traumatized war orphan who developed into a psychopathic serial killer. Jon would be horrified if he learned what she did. And there is no reason to expect that Jon would be sexually or romantically attracted to this person. Vice versa, Jon himself should be far too soft of Arya's tastes. She has very little empathy left and uses mortal violence as a casual means to resolve problems

Jon doesn't mind Arya using mortal violence to solve problems. He is the one who taught her to "stick them with the pointy end after all" and that phrase was the last thing on Jon's mind when he died. She's not a psychopath but she is a killer as are most characters in the series. Unless you believe that brutality is what makes someone psychopathic, in which case Dany would qualify as psychopathic as well. Besides no matter what she's done or who's she killed, Arya believes that Jon would accept her for it. I trust that she's a better judge of Jon's character than yourself. It's not like he is repulsed by violent and ruthless women as evidenced by his attraction to Ygritte and Val.

There are good reasons that Arya and Jon would be attracted to each other romantically and sexually assuming of course that Arya is at least not a pre-teen anymore. Their intense feelings for each other are undeniable and they have strongest sibling bond in the series. Also all of the incest couples in the story and the series' history have been between family members who look alike. Jaime and Cersei, the Targaryens, perhaps Tywin and Joanna as well if you count first cousins as incest. It makes sense after all. Incest is attraction to people with very similar genetic material. It would therefore be strongest between family members who look alike. 

As such, I don't see any potential bond between Dany and Jon as one that is based on romance. Rather it's far more likely that the match would occur for political reasons. Jon needs Dany and her dragons to fight the white walkers. If Jon's Targaryen heritage is revealed, Jon's and Dany's marriage would resolve any succession disputes. Assuming that Aegon is dead. Perhaps their match would become romantic later like Ned and Catelyn.

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, Winter's Cold said:

Jon doesn't mind Arya using mortal violence to solve problems. He is the one who taught her to "stick them with the pointy end after all" and that phrase was the last thing on Jon's mind when he died. She's not a psychopath but she is a killer as are most characters in the series. Unless you believe that brutality is what makes someone psychopathic, in which case Dany would qualify as psychopathic as well. Besides no matter what she's done or who's she killed, Arya believes that Jon would accept her for it. I trust that she's a better judge of Jon's character than yourself. It's not like he is repulsed by violent and ruthless women as evidenced by his attraction to Ygritte and Val.

This isn't an Arya thread but I really urge you to inform yourself what being a psychopathic killer means and how this relates to Arya, especially when she kills. Arya has her fits of mad rage when killing (the Tickler, for instance) and she is capable of extreme cruelty (as she shows when she spares Sandor's life, meaning it as a punishment, not mercy) but her most recent killings - Dareon, the insurance guy, and Raff (as well as the murder of the Bolton guard) - were done so meticulously and cold-blooded that you cannot describe her in other terms. She can kill people without feeling any remorse or considering the deed as such problematic. That is the kind of low empathy you find in genuine psychopaths, and such people usually are made by suffering traumas of the sort Arya went through.

The Harrenhal episode is very telling in this regard. Arya is an impotent little mouse there but becomes delusions of grandeur when she becomes this powerful ghost of Harrenhal with the power over life and death. That kind of thing is usually what drives psychopathic serial killers to continue to kill - the feeling of power you have when you have complete control over the life and death of another human being.

And the question whether scum like Raff deserves to die by the rules of this society (Dareon, the insurance guy, and the Bolton guard did not) is completely different from the question whether a 11-year-old girl should become a serial killer while being on some sort of quest for vengeance. I'd say her doing something like that cannot have a good ending. It will destroy her. The person Arya becomes is not somebody anyone would like to hang out with, especially not the people who last saw her in AGoT or ACoK.

4 hours ago, Winter's Cold said:

There are good reasons that Arya and Jon would be attracted to each other romantically and sexually assuming of course that Arya is at least not a pre-teen anymore. Their intense feelings for each other are undeniable and they have strongest sibling bond in the series. Also all of the incest couples in the story and the series' history have been between family members who look alike. Jaime and Cersei, the Targaryens, perhaps Tywin and Joanna as well if you count first cousins as incest. It makes sense after all. Incest is attraction to people with very similar genetic material. It would therefore be strongest between family members who look alike. 

There is a very strong incest taboo in this world, you know. Only the Targaryens are exempt from that and even there this whole thing usually results in incestuous marriages, not so much incestuous love. We have Aegon-Rhaenys, Jaehaerys-Alysanne, and Jaehaerys II-Shaera. All the other Targaryen marrying their close kin are not very likely to have loved them in a romantic or sexual way. Some of them even grew to despise each other (Aegon-Visenya, Aegon-Naerys, Aerys-Rhaella).

But nobody would expect Jon and Arya to marry each other. And they have no reason to feel any attraction for each other in a romantic or sexual way because they no longer relate to each other. They have lived through so much things that completely changed their personalities (especially in Arya's case) that they might not even be able to reconnect in any meaningful way.

Chances are that Arya is not even capable to ever enter into a romantic relationship where she has to trust somebody. She may use sex as means to an end, of course, but she is not likely to ever love or trust somebody. How could she after what she's been through?

4 hours ago, Winter's Cold said:

As such, I don't see any potential bond between Dany and Jon as one that is based on romance. Rather it's far more likely that the match would occur for political reasons. Jon needs Dany and her dragons to fight the white walkers. If Jon's Targaryen heritage is revealed, Jon's and Dany's marriage would resolve any succession disputes. Assuming that Aegon is dead. Perhaps their match would become romantic later like Ned and Catelyn.

Dany and Jon just might get the hots for each other. Just as Rhaegar and Lyanna did. Or Brandon and Barbrey, or Jeyne and Robb, etc. Why shouldn't they? Jon is a young and handsome man, looking dangerous with that scar of his and the wolf by his side. And Daenerys is the fairest woman in the world, whatever that's worth. If Dany comes to Westeros and is need of a consort such a man is likely to trigger her interest, assuming he has something to offer to her. And perhaps even more if he needs her help. Dany wants to help people, after all. And Jon would be an utter moron if he did not everything in his power to get Daenerys Targaryen and her dragons and other forces on his side. What else should he do? Hope to stop the Others with a bunch of starving wildlings and freezing Northmen without food?

The idea that the two people who are most likely to represent 'ice' and 'fire' on the human level are not going to get the hots for each other in a series named 'A Song of Ice and Fire' is just not very likely. They can reenact the love affair of Rhaegar and Lyanna leading it to a good end this time.

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

Why and Where does the Dany/Jon love theory com from?

From the overactive imaginations of Jon's fans. 

[kissdbyfire]

33 minutes ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Why and Where does the Dany/Jon love theory com from?

From the overactive imaginations of Jon's fans. 

I don't know a single Jon fan who wants to see him w/ Dany. Not saying they don't exist but they're not very numerous. 

And I don't know many, if any at all, Dany fans who want to see her w/ Jon either. 

[Castellan]

I don't know about love story but as Targs tend to marry each other marriage is an obvious possibility.

Personally I think Jon will remain true to his vows, if he survives, and if the NW survives.

[Nowy Tends]

1 hour ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Why and Where does the Dany/Jon love theory com from?

From the overactive imaginations of Jon's fans. 

[Hodor the Articulate]

5 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Why and Where does the Dany/Jon love theory com from?

From the overactive imaginations of Jon's fans. 

Err...you must be new to these parts. Jon superfans are generally aggressively opposed to this ship. They're more for traditional love interests, like Val. Can't have some chick overshadowing their boy, you see...

[crowcrow]

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Arya has nothing to offer to anyone, nor is there anything other people can do to heal hear. She is a traumatized war orphan who developed into a psychopathic serial killer. Jon would be horrified if he learned what she did. And there is no reason to expect that Jon would be sexually or romantically attracted to this person. Vice versa, Jon himself should be far too soft of Arya's tastes. She has very little empathy left and uses mortal violence as a casual means to resolve problems.

OKEY, you people are obviously good at provoking me. So for you, Arya is nothing but a traumatized war child/psychopath/assassin? Are you serious? Jon would love her even if no one else did. THIS IS ARYA, the girl Jon died for FFS. And the reason why there WILL or MIGHT be a romance coming up is that of the foreshadowings the books already have. And Arya is a girl with a golden heart, im guessing we haven't read the same books or you haven't paid much attention to her chapters but Arya has done a lot of niceness and she is very humane. if she is what you suppose she is, then she would have lacked any communication skills at all. stop downgrading her, there is a reason why her connection with Jon (and her home, nymeria and etc.) is still there. And LOL if u think that Jon would be attracted to Dany (who by the way crucified the lords of mereen, and has the same idea of justice like Arya). Jon literally was in awe when Ygritte slit the throat of some guy, and then he fantasized of Val doing the same thing. He said to Alys that he will give her uncle's head to her as a gift or something along the lines. He will resurrect, meaning, he will be more troubled. 

[kissdbyfire]

3 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Err...you must be new to these parts. Jon superfans are generally aggressively opposed to this ship. They're more for traditional love interests, like Val. Can't have some chick overshadowing their boy, you see...

Sure. Because the two main-ish characters getting together and living happily ever after is not the most traditional and boooooooring ending possible.

 

[lojzelote]

9 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I don't know a single Jon fan who wants to see him w/ Dany. Not saying they don't exist but they're not very numerous. 

And I don't know many, if any at all, Dany fans who want to see her w/ Jon either. 

I know plenty of fans of both Jon and Dany who like or don't mind the idea. But, of course, if they are purely a Jon fan or purely a Dany fan (who are much less common), then it means you don't like the other and want your favorite not to care for them either. That said, going by my anecdotal experience, Dany fans tend to be much more open to the possibility of multiple AAs etc. It's Jon fans that get upset if the whole answer to everything is not the secret prince. Hence all the theories about how Dany is a villain in making or a red herring whose only purpose is to deliver her dragons to Jon.

I am personally very fond of both characters, but I spend most of my time in the fandom defending Dany from the accusations of being an Evil Queen (a mantle obviously taken by Cersei) and explaining why the sun does not shine from Jon's ass.