Why and Where does the Dany/Jon love theory com from?

[lojzelote]

13 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Sure. Because the two main-ish characters getting together and living happily ever after is not the most traditional and boooooooring ending possible.

 

Correction; A male hero of a humble background and noble bloodline who owns a shiny sword usually saves the world and gets it all. Leading women get usually redelegated into the role of a love interest, a sidekick, or an antagonist. But the male and female hero on the same footing? Not that common at all.

With Jon and Dany people tend to bring up Aragorn and Arwen, but the truth is, Dany is herself much more an Aragorn than an Arwen. Arwen became a more prominent character in the movies, but in the books she's pretty one-note.

 

[kissdbyfire]

11 minutes ago, lojzelote said:

Correction; A male hero of a humble background and noble bloodline who owns a shiny sword usually saves the world and gets it all. Leading women get usually redelegated into the role of a love interest, a sidekick, or an antagonist. But the male and female hero on the same footing? Not that common at all.

With Jon and Dany people tend to bring up Aragorn and Arwen, but the truth is, Dany is herself much more an Aragorn than an Arwen. Arwen became a more prominent character in the movies, but in the books she's pretty one-note.

 

And a female hero with magical dragons etc etc. To each their own, of course. But I find the pairing boring. Not only that, but from what we've seen so far, neither is the other's type, so for these two characters to develop this awesome love story in the last two books would feel a bit silly and forced. 

I don't think Jon will survive the series and I don't see much of a love story happening for him. And for Dany, I'd like her to find someone she really cares for, someone who can make her happy. 

[lojzelote]

2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

And a female hero with magical dragons etc etc. To each their own, of course. But I find the pairing boring. Not only that, but from what we've seen so far, neither is the other's type, so for these two characters to develop this awesome love story in the last two books would feel a bit silly and forced. 

I don't think Jon will survive the series and I don't see much of a love story happening for him. And for Dany, I'd like her to find someone she really cares for, someone who can make her happy. 

You can find it boring, but I'd consider that a breath of fresh air. Despite the claims to the contrary, finding such an equal pair of protagonist in high fantasy would not be an easy task.

This idea that they are not each other's "types" is built upon the false premises of what the two character are about. How do we know what are their "types"? Dany had exactly two love interests, one of which was forced upon her and she had to learn to love (or 'love') him or perish. She loved Drogo for giving her at least the illusion of agency after the lifetime of abuse at Viserys' hands. Daario, she has been attracted to, but that was again because he supported her in and represented what she wanted to do: not to be the demure queen in silks that pops out sons, but someone who follows her goals even if it means blood and the disruption of (false) peace. Jon had exactly one love interest (he may or may not get there with Val, but so far they only flirted), and going by Ygritte, I have a reason to believe that he will appreciate a fiery woman that always speaks her mind and fights for what she wants and who will be there to join him in the fight against the Others. So, frankly, I think they are already fairly well-matched and may become even more so in TWoW.

For that matter, I don't expect GRRM write a great epic romance ala Romeo and Juliet that overshadows everything else that is happening. I expect him to write two lonely, over-worked teenagers with a common goal who manage to achieve some kind of emotional intimacy and come to care for each other a great deal. 

[Lord Varys]

I guess since I'm branded as some sort of evil Dany fanatic by a considerable part of those boards I can prove that this isn't the case by pointing out that I always believed and was in favor of the idea that Dany and Jon will end up falling in love and marrying each other.

I don't know whether that also means they will live happily ever after (I don't think Westeros will get a zombie-king) but that's a separate question.

I see no reason why being 'a fan' of a character should disable you to consider this or that possible ending/outcome more or less likely. That makes no sense.

@Reva

This isn't the place to discuss this. But I urge you to sit down and consider the question how you would judge a person doing what Arya does in real life. What you would think of her if the insurance guy, the Bolton soldier, or Weese were a member of your family? What you would think if you saw an 11-year-old girl do what Arya does to Raff?

There is simply no excuse for this kind of behavior, not even by the standards of the world of Westeros. What Arya does is murder, plain and simple. There is a place for blood vengeance in this world, sure, but doing it in a cold-blooded and insidious manner as Arya does it is still punishable by death in this world.

[Winter's Cold]

26 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I guess since I'm branded as some sort of evil Dany fanatic by a considerable part of those boards I can prove that this isn't the case by pointing out that I always believed and was in favor of the idea that Dany and Jon will end up falling in love and marrying each other.

I don't know whether that also means they will live happily ever after (I don't think Westeros will get a zombie-king) but that's a separate question.

I see no reason why being 'a fan' of a character should disable you to consider this or that possible ending/outcome more or less likely. That makes no sense.

@Reva

This isn't the place to discuss this. But I urge you to sit down and consider the question how you would judge a person doing what Arya does in real life. What you would think of her if the insurance guy, the Bolton soldier, or Weese were a member of your family? What you would think if you saw an 11-year-old girl do what Arya does to Raff?

There is simply no excuse for this kind of behavior, not even by the standards of the world of Westeros. What Arya does is murder, plain and simple. There is a place for blood vengeance in this world, sure, but doing it in a cold-blooded and insidious manner as Arya does it is still punishable by death in this world.

It is murder but too bad the world of Westeros isn't real life. It is a dark world of murder and slaughter. And young kids are not spared from it. Arya cannot fight toe to toe with any adult in the series as she is just an 11 year old child. Thus murdering those she considers her enemies is her only option. She also doesn't have an army. She can't just order people to be butchered and crucified like Dany does. Did you want her to duel Raff, the child murdering sadist and one of the Mountain's men?

[The Fattest Leech]

 

2 hours ago, lojzelote said:

With Jon and Dany people tend to bring up Aragorn and Arwen, but the truth is, Dany is herself much more an Aragorn than an Arwen. Arwen became a more prominent character in the movies, but in the books she's pretty one-note.

 

I don't know why people constantly compare ASOIAF to another authors work that nothing to do with this authors themes, character development, or writing style. 

It is probably better to compare this author to his own work if we are making predictions. And going by what this author does in all of his stories that have these 'Jon' and 'Dany' characters, nope, he is not putting hem together. And part of that reason is the shiny sword boy getting with the perky dragon princess is cliche as all get out. 

[The Fattest Leech]

 

Quote

blood and the disruption of (false) peace. Jon had exactly one love interest (he may or may not get there with Val, but so far they only flirted), and going by Ygritte, I have a reason to believe that he will appreciate a fiery woman that always speaks her mind and fights for what she wants and who will be there to join him in the fight against the Others.

You do realize Jon rejected a life Ygritte twice because Ygritte was for duty. 

He does end up liking her, and her plain looks turn pretty, but as far as the narrative goes, she was not a long term relationship. The story tells us, "the brightest flames burn out the fastest." 

Quote

So, frankly, I think they are already fairly well-matched and may become even more so in TWoW.

They are what is called, and what George likes to use in his own work, a false parallel. The have a similar path and similar trial situations, but they handle them very differently than each other. This is developing them into two opposite people. And not opposite like fighting, just opposite like nothing in common. 

 

[Lord Varys]

17 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

It is murder but too bad the world of Westeros isn't real life. It is a dark world of murder and slaughter. And young kids are not spared from it. Arya cannot fight toe to toe with any adult in the series as she is just an 11 year old child. Thus murdering those she considers her enemies is her only option. She also doesn't have an army. She can't just order people to be butchered and crucified like Dany does. Did you want her to duel Raff, the child murdering sadist and one of the Mountain's men?

I just don't relish in the idea that it is okay for an 11-year-old to become a serial killer. It is an interesting story, but it is not something that makes the person doing that sympathetic or the whole quest for vengeance as a positive thing.

Arya doesn't have to kill the people on her list, you know. She has a choice to let this whole thing go.

1 hour ago, lojzelote said:

You can find it boring, but I'd consider that a breath of fresh air. Despite the claims to the contrary, finding such an equal pair of protagonist in high fantasy would not be an easy task.

Yeah, that is hardly something we see often in such a series, especially not around the time George actually began to write this series (the early 1990s)

The template from which George took the Jon-Dany thing seem to be Simon and Miriamele from Tad Williams' MST. Miri is the daughter of the last king and Simon is the 'true heir' of a previous king, and in the end they marry each other and turn out to rule the kingdom as equal co-rulers for at least three decades.

Simon is a very conventional 'orphan boy turned prince' hero and Miri is very much the spoiled princess cliché.

George clearly decided to make something more complex out of this whole thing. His Aragorn-type character is Daenerys, not Jon Snow. He made the person trying to reclaim her father's throne, etc. female not male.

Jon Snow certainly has a lot of classic fantasy hero characteristics, but he is living in a setting where such traits are not going to make you king in the end. If he had traveled the country, winning the trust, friendship, and loyalty of various people it could be an option that he might become king one day. But instead he joined the warrior-monks, giving up any prospects of glory and power in the prospects of it. And while he certainly can love and have affairs while he is a brother of the NW he still does not aspire to be more than what is his duty as member of the NW. He struggles with certain tenets of the vow, of course, but he constantly rejects or ends up rejecting temptations to actually leave the NW and pursue a career in the mundane world of politics and power.

Politically that puts him at a huge disadvantage if he ever wanted to challenge Dany's claim or reinvent himself as a rival pretender to the Iron Throne.

And if they end up in a marriage then Dany will be the one wearing the pants, so to speak. Jon may be the Daemon to her Rhaenyra, or the Alysanne to her Jaehaerys I.

1 hour ago, lojzelote said:

This idea that they are not each other's "types" is built upon the false premises of what the two character are about. How do we know what are their "types"? Dany had exactly two love interests, one of which was forced upon her and she had to learn to love (or 'love') him or perish. She loved Drogo for giving her at least the illusion of agency after the lifetime of abuse at Viserys' hands. Daario, she has been attracted to, but that was again because he supported her in and represented what she wanted to do: not to be the demure queen in silks that pops out sons, but someone who follows her goals even if it means blood and the disruption of (false) peace. Jon had exactly one love interest (he may or may not get there with Val, but so far they only flirted), and going by Ygritte, I have a reason to believe that he will appreciate a fiery woman that always speaks her mind and fights for what she wants and who will be there to join him in the fight against the Others. So, frankly, I think they are already fairly well-matched and may become even more so in TWoW.

For that matter, I don't expect GRRM write a great epic romance ala Romeo and Juliet that overshadows everything else that is happening. I expect him to write two lonely, over-worked teenagers with a common goal who manage to achieve some kind of emotional intimacy and come to care for each other a great deal. 

Yeah, the idea that Dany and Jon are not each other's types is about the same as saying that Lyanna wasn't Rhaegar's type. People found and still find that romance very odd but it was apparently a very real thing, at least on Rhaegar's part. While we don't yet know how Jon and Dany will meet we have little to no idea what they will think of each other or whether they might be attracted to each other.

I'm pretty sure we can be very certain that George is going to have the guys in the North (assuming they are still there by the time Dany arrives) do anything in their power to try to get the dragon queen on their side in the fight against the Others. And vice versa Dany might be very interested and motivated to defeat the Others if they are already attacking the Wall by the time she arrives. Or have already breached the Wall and invaded the North.

There is a lot of potential for romance and love in such a setting. And we already know that it is not that difficult to seduce Jon Snow. Ygritte was an average young woman, neither particularly attractive nor particularly bright. Yet Jon still fell for her, most likely due to the fact that he was an adolescent full of hormones who was still a virgin (not to mention the fact that it was basically fuck Ygritte or die).

[Dragonsbone]

I don't get why Jon and Danny should not happen. The most often used argument against it here seems to be that this would be too cliche and that GRRM would therefore not go that way. But that seems to be a very weak arguement, since at the end of the day, this is a fantasy novel, and fantasy novels have been around for centuries  (Yes, even before Tolkien). Every possible "topic" has already been writen by other authors. Just read Shakespeare and you find nearly all thematics that are used now in modern literature. Of course with variations. But that does not make them (all) cliches. Also note that George does use kind of a lot of "cliches" in his books: the beautifull princess married to a savage leader, a beautifull red hair witch (obvious medieval lore), an evil pirate with an eyepatch (I personally think this was his biggest "joke") just to name  a few. But he does it very well. It is the style how you work with this lore. If you don't overuse them, and change it so that they feel "natural" in the story, then you don't consider them to be cliches.

As far as Jon and Danny: others have pointed here a lot of arguements why this is one of the logic conclusions. I have nothing to add there. 

[lojzelote]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Yeah, that is hardly something we see often in such a series, especially not around the time George actually began to write this series (the early 1990s)

The template from which George took the Jon-Dany thing seem to be Simon and Miriamele from Tad Williams' MST. Miri is the daughter of the last king and Simon is the 'true heir' of a previous king, and in the end they marry each other and turn out to rule the kingdom as equal co-rulers for at least three decades.

Simon is a very conventional 'orphan boy turned prince' hero and Miri is very much the spoiled princess cliché.

George clearly decided to make something more complex out of this whole thing. His Aragorn-type character is Daenerys, not Jon Snow. He made the person trying to reclaim her father's throne, etc. female not male.

 

I must say that this is news to me; I read Tad Williams' series (well, the first book, and I flicked through the rest because it was too much of a slog for my taste), and from what I remember Miriamele ended up as the queen consort to Simon's king. (A fact that infuriated me btw, because I thought she was better suited to become a ruler than Simon.) At least Jon received education as a lord's son; Simon was raised and regarded by everybody as a lowborn servant, so the idea that he was so easily accepted a king was somewhat hard to swallow, his heroic deeds nonwithstanding.

[Reisendame]

2 hours ago, Dragonsbone said:

I don't get why Jon and Danny should not happen. The most often used argument against it here seems to be that this would be too cliche and that GRRM would therefore not go that way. But that seems to be a very weak arguement, since at the end of the day, this is a fantasy novel, and fantasy novels have been around for centuries  (Yes, even before Tolkien). Every possible "topic" has already been writen by other authors. Just read Shakespeare and you find nearly all thematics that are used now in modern literature. Of course with variations. But that does not make them (all) cliches. Also note that George does use kind of a lot of "cliches" in his books: the beautifull princess married to a savage leader, a beautifull red hair witch (obvious medieval lore), an evil pirate with an eyepatch (I personally think this was his biggest "joke") just to name  a few. But he does it very well. It is the style how you work with this lore. If you don't overuse them, and change it so that they feel "natural" in the story, then you don't consider them to be cliches.

As far as Jon and Danny: others have pointed here a lot of arguements why this is one of the logic conclusions. I have nothing to add there. 

I'm very averse to Jon and Dany, and that feeling has grown as the show's continued. It seemed like a great idea back in Season One. It feels cliche because the audience has been expecting the "fire and ice" union for years. The series used to surprise us, but it's all very predictable now. I crave surprises and that hasn't been happening. 

I hate to be a Dany-hater, but her character has increasingly irked me. I know this has been declared all over the forums, but it boggles my mind: Are we supposed to see her as a savior, or the "chosen one"? Meh. Is she even supposed to be sympathetic? I don't feel she is the "rightful queen" of all the Seven Kingdoms. She doesn't know Jacks*** about Westeros, aside from tall tales. I understand she has some super-power of being unburnt, blah blah... but super heroes don't try to become the king or queen. She's ambitious .. as was Caesar, and look what happened to him. 

Slavery is outlawed in Westeros, so there's no moral cause for her crusade. She wants to seize power and avenge her ancestors. At this point, she serves as a means to beat Cersei. No one wants Cersei as their queen. She could just target Cersei with her dragons, and either go back to Essos or hang at (the inexplicably completely abandoned) Dragonstone. It is, after all, her ancestral home. I still think she should go back to the ruins of Valyria. She can burn all the stone men. 

As I'm writing, I guess they stick Jon and Dany together because he's actually humble and wants to save humanity. Maybe he'll take her down a notch. 

Emilia Clarke is beautiful, but I get headaches from rolling my eyes so much. Her scenes are awful. 

****THIS WAS POSTED IN THE WRONG FORUM, PLEASE DISREGARD***  

[Dragonsbone]

31 minutes ago, Reisendame said:

I'm very averse to Jon and Dany, and that feeling has grown as the show's continued. It seemed like a great idea back in Season One. It feels cliche because the audience has been expecting the "fire and ice" union for years. The series used to surprise us, but it's all very predictable now. I crave surprises and that hasn't been happening. 

I hate to be a Dany-hater, but her character has increasingly irked me. I know this has been declared all over the forums, but it boggles my mind: Are we supposed to see her as a savior, or the "chosen one"? Meh. Is she even supposed to be sympathetic? I don't feel she is the "rightful queen" of all the Seven Kingdoms. She doesn't know Jacks*** about Westeros, aside from tall tales. I understand she has some super-power of being unburnt, blah blah... but super heroes don't try to become the king or queen. She's ambitious .. as was Caesar, and look what happened to him. 

Slavery is outlawed in Westeros, so there's no moral cause for her crusade. She wants to seize power and avenge her ancestors. At this point, she serves as a means to beat Cersei. No one wants Cersei as their queen. She could just target Cersei with her dragons, and either go back to Essos or hang at (the inexplicably completely abandoned) Dragonstone. It is, after all, her ancestral home. I still think she should go back to the ruins of Valyria. She can burn all the stone men. 

As I'm writing, I guess they stick Jon and Dany together because he's actually humble and wants to save humanity. Maybe he'll take her down a notch. 

Emilia Clarke is beautiful, but I get headaches from rolling my eyes so much. Her scenes are awful. 

 

You are talking about the show. This is a book-only- topic. I just want to warn you kindly, before the book-purists come out with their blunt forkes trying to slaughter you 

[TMIFairy]

57 minutes ago, Reisendame said:

I understand she has some super-power of being unburnt, blah blah...

And that is a TV-series brainfart

Had heat resistance been a genuine Targ trait dragonseeds would be highly sought for - all tradesmen dealing with heat (blacksmiths and such) would be lining up to sign them up as apprentices  

[kissdbyfire]

3 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

 

You do realize Jon rejected a life Ygritte twice because Ygritte was for duty. 

He does end up liking her, and her plain looks turn pretty, but as far as the narrative goes, she was not a long term relationship. The story tells us, "the brightest flames burn out the fastest." 

They are what is called, and what George likes to use in his own work, a false parallel. The have a similar path and similar trial situations, but they handle them very differently than each other. This is developing them into two opposite people. And not opposite like fighting, just opposite like nothing in common. 

 

Well said, 

[Reisendame]

1 hour ago, Dragonsbone said:

You are talking about the show. This is a book-only- topic. I just want to warn you kindly, before the book-purists come out with their blunt forkes trying to slaughter you 

Oops! 

Thank you. I clicked on a link and lost my bearings-- I'm new to the site  Forget everything I said!! I will revisit this thread with my thoughts regarding the BOOKS ONLY. 

[Dragonsbone]

6 minutes ago, Reisendame said:

Oops! 

Thank you. I clicked on a link and lost my bearings-- I'm new to the site  Forget everything I said!! I will revisit this thread with my thoughts regarding the BOOKS ONLY. 

You are welcome 

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, lojzelote said:

I must say that this is news to me; I read Tad Williams' series (well, the first book, and I flicked through the rest because it was too much of a slog for my taste), and from what I remember Miriamele ended up as the queen consort to Simon's king. (A fact that infuriated me btw, because I thought she was better suited to become a ruler than Simon.) At least Jon received education as a lord's son; Simon was raised and regarded by everybody as a lowborn servant, so the idea that he was so easily accepted a king was somewhat hard to swallow, his heroic deeds nonwithstanding.

I know what you mean. It tried to read it two times and only got through the first book, abandoning when it when they ended up being stuck in that troll village what felt like forever. But I listened to the audiobook version last year, I think. But the parallels between it and ASoIaF are so glaring that it is not exactly wrong to take it into consideration when speculating about the future of ASoIaF (we have priests in red robes advising evil kings, evil men with wolf's head helmets, boys liking to climb towers and overhearing people, girls disguising themselves as boys, an ancient enemy in the far north, a wolf serving as a companion to a main character, a red comet as a herald of doom/change, etc.).

And, yes, 'Simon King' is very hard to believe. Which is why 'Jon King' will even be harder to swallow because pretty much nobody in Westeros has the grace or the kindness or the lack of ambition to allow a guy who grew up as a Stark bastard who tells us a fairy-tale about his true heritage to become his king if he or she can prevent/claim the crown instead.

I'm not sure if you know that Williams is writing a new series set in Osten Ard - 'The Last King of Osten Ard', set 30 years in the future. The first book is named 'The Witchwood Crown'. This is from which I've the the whole co-ruler thing. Simon and Miri jointly sit the High Throne and it is actually a plot point that they have to issue commands together or else they are not binding royal commands (sort of like Mary II and William III of England, I guess).

In general though it is Miriamele who rules and Simon who acts as the figurehead. They are like (much) more benevolent versions of Augustus and Livia from I, Claudius. It is Miri who knows how to rule and deal with the nobility and the church. Simon is the nice who tells tales and is very popular with the commons and the men because of what he did in the war and all. But he is far too soft for his job and tends to see the best in everyone.

Now, if we get back to the topic at hand it is Daenerys who actually learns and comes to terms with what it means to be a monarch in George's world. Jon only learns how to serve (the realms of men). That isn't the same as ruling a kingdom. Only in fairy-tale setting would we assume that being Lord Commander of the Night's Watch prepares you for sitting the Iron Throne. That chair devours anyone who is not prepared to sit on it, and to be prepared for that you have to be groomed to do it, grow up at court, and/or have very, very good people who can help you with that. Jon has nothing of that and he only has a chance of getting any of that by hooking up with Daenerys (or Aegon).

The Rhaegar-Lyanna-story alone is not going to worth anything. Important people have to believe it. And if no other Targaryens (Dany, Aegon, Tyrion, etc.) buy it then the Targaryen loyalists and other lords won't buy it, either. And that would then be the end of that story.

[TMIFairy]

24 minutes ago, Reisendame said:

Oops! 

Thank you. I clicked on a link and lost my bearings-- I'm new to the site  Forget everything I said!! I will revisit this thread with my thoughts regarding the BOOKS ONLY. 

We are not that bad

1 hour ago, Dragonsbone said:

You are talking about the show. This is a book-only- topic. I just want to warn you kindly, before the book-purists come out with their blunt forkes trying to slaughter you 

Now you made me think of book-purists ganging together and all putting "Our Forks Are Blunt" into their sigs

[Dragonsbone]

11 minutes ago, TMIFairy said:

 

Now you made me think of book-purists ganging together and all putting "Our Forks Are Blunt" into their sigs

This is the best coment I have ever read on this whole forum . You just made my day!!! Just great. 

[Lady bonehead]

Either Jon or Dany, or both, is almost certainly infertile, so a normal marriage with kids ain't gonna happen. In fact after dying and being resurrected I wouldn't be surprised if Jon isn't just infertile but actually impotent. I always had him pegged as a sacrificial hero who dies for the greater good or perhaps becomes a perpetual Undead hero. But perhaps it is Dany who will end up being the sacrificial hero.