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Was Daeron I right in invading Dorne?


Valens

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Daeron the Young Dragon...one of the most dashing, charming and heroic Targaryen kings ever. When he conquered Dorne, he accomplished something even Aegon the Conqueror couldn't. But, was he right in trying to conquer Dorne? Considering that it got him murdered, probably no, if you look it from that angle. But on other hand, was it right of a king of the mightiest dynasty in Westeros to ignore the fact that that little kingdom was defying them and remaining independent when so many much larger kingdoms fell and acknowledged the Targaryen rule? Absolutely not. In that way Daeron was right, but he made a mistake in returning to Dorne, thinking that they were a subdued people and would not attempt anything. This again shows us the dogged and fiery nature of Dornishmen. They will stop at nothing to get their revenge. In the end, it had been better if Daeron I had not done this, because then he'd live longer and perhaps achieve more. He would definitely do good for the realm, but his peacemaking skills needed honing. On the other side, Baelor kinda went too far in trying to make peace with Dorne and he humbled himself too much.

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27 minutes ago, norwaywolf123 said:

The Dornish killed Daeron under the peace banner! If Daeron 1 had lived the Targaryens would be alot stronger. IMagine there wouuld be no Baelor the Blessed or Aegon the Unworthy!

Precisely. And there is another example of how "wonderful" the Dornish are, what do you say now, redtree??

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He made the no.1 mistake that conquerors make: he didn't get any of the Dornish to turn on eachother. He should have offered House Yronwood the seat of the Martells for siding with him; he couldn't hope to hold Dorne without at least some of its people selling out the rest.

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It's never right to invade Dorne, because they'll get all their castles back in a couple of weeks when one man dies because reasons. 

And they never turn on each other despite the threat of everything they own being burned, because reasons. 

And capturing their castles doesn't matter because, muh guerilla warfare and reasons. 

Dornish history reads like fanfiction. 

Also they'll kill your dragons and incestuous wives, not worth. 

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He should have used the good ol' technique of "Conquer, then kill everything that moves and has two legs (yes, even the chickens), and then populate the land with people you trust". 

And I agree with:

1 hour ago, Leonardo said:

He made the no.1 mistake that conquerors make: he didn't get any of the Dornish to turn on eachother. He should have offered House Yronwood the seat of the Martells for siding with him; he couldn't hope to hold Dorne without at least some of its people selling out the rest.

But I think it'd be easier to conquer Dorne, marry a Martell girl, take her and a lot of hostages back to KL, and just chill. 

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Dorne was brought into the fold through peace and marriages. It rendered all the efforts of Aegon and Daeron I to be utterly wasteful. It was a lot of bloodshed which yielded nothing but xenophobia that Baelor and Daeron II had to deal with during peace talks.

Personally I find there to be little morality in war at all. Even the wars which we hail as being fought for good reasons were (A) far more complex than that, and/or  (B) reactions to other people warring and invading in the first place.

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No, not really. There was absolutely no legal or ethical justification for his invasion - it was by definition an unprovoked war, not even in response to any actions the contemporary crop of Dornishmen had done. Daeron couldn't even claim that the ends justified the means, since unlike Aegon's invasion of Westeros it ended up bringing nothing but war, misery, massacre, and death to all parties. 

That isn't to say, of course, that the Dornish acted on the up-and-up during all of this. Murdering someone under a peace banner is completely despicable. But the Dornish were acting in pure self-defense, whereas Daeron was attacking purely out of ego.

The whole thing was a mess from beginning to end, and it goes to show that the subordination of Dorne couldn't have been achieved via war. If it hadn't been for Baelor the Blessed and Daeron the Good, the wounds that the Young Dragon made would have never been healed, and there certainly wouldn't have been a united continent.

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14 hours ago, Valens said:

Precisely. And there is another example of how "wonderful" the Dornish are, what do you say now, redtree??

If you want to continue on debate then stay on topic in the previous thread, i can only see that you're talking to me because i check this one. 

So you blame Dorne for Baelor the Blessed and Aegon 4 ? Hah, you're really desperate. They were who they were because that's just the way they were and Dorne had no part in affecting their decision. If Daeron 1 really feel that Baelor and Aegon 4 wouldn't be good heir then he should have gotten married and produce issue to prevent them from being a king but he didn't. Aegon 4 had already behaved like a jackass even before Daeron sat on the throne and Baelor had refused to consummate his marriage to Daena and already was a devoted and pious man when Daeron was alive. Why not blame Daeron for failing to reproduce ?  Not once ever mentioned in the book that people blame Dorne for Baelor and Aegon so this is just another of your baseless attempt

Did Dorne make Baelor pray fortnight and fast for another ? No
Did Dorne make Baelor set aside Daena ? No
Did Dorne make Aegon 4 bang almost every girl in continent? No
Did Dorne make Aegon 4 being cruel to Naerys ? No
Did Dorne make Aegon 4 legitimize Daemon Blackfyre ? No

Actually, it was the "wonderful" Dorne who was being Daeron 2's chief partner in squashing Daemon's rebellion. Aegon 4 also continued tantalizing Dorne until he failed terribly in making wooden dragon so it looks like they were the wise one there. 

Curious, why don't you blame Dorne for Daeron the Good ? Or for Baelor the Anvil, an all around great guy who was half dornish ? Why don't you blame them for Aegon 5 ? Oh right, because  you omit that piece of facts to strengthened your argument

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8 hours ago, Valens said:

Daeron the Young Dragon...one of the most dashing, charming and heroic Targaryen kings ever. When he conquered Dorne, he accomplished something even Aegon the Conqueror couldn't. But, was he right in trying to conquer Dorne? Considering that it got him murdered, probably no, if you look it from that angle. But on other hand, was it right of a king of the mightiest dynasty in Westeros to ignore the fact that that little kingdom was defying them and remaining independent when so many much larger kingdoms fell and acknowledged the Targaryen rule? Absolutely not. In that way Daeron was right, but he made a mistake in returning to Dorne, thinking that they were a subdued people and would not attempt anything. This again shows us the dogged and fiery nature of Dornishmen. They will stop at nothing to get their revenge. In the end, it had been better if Daeron I had not done this, because then he'd live longer and perhaps achieve more. He would definitely do good for the realm, but his peacemaking skills needed honing. On the other side, Baelor kinda went too far in trying to make peace with Dorne and he humbled himself too much.

Define "Right"

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1 hour ago, Dorian Martell said:

Define "Right"

It would be the opposite of left.

8 hours ago, Trigger Warning said:

It's never right to invade Dorne, because they'll get all their castles back in a couple of weeks when one man dies because reasons. 

And they never turn on each other despite the threat of everything they own being burned, because reasons. 

And capturing their castles doesn't matter because, muh guerilla warfare and reasons. 

Dornish history reads like fanfiction. 

Also they'll kill your dragons and incestuous wives, not worth. 

Ha, it's funny cause it's true.

Don't invade the kingdom that is plot armored against invasion. Some truly horrible writing as to how Dorne withstood so much, yet has done so little. While their are several symbolic reasons it withstood, the writing has been more along the lines of Martin saying it wasn't conquered because I say so, deal with it.

The gorilla warfare their is the stuff of legends, they vanish into the desert. Yeah but the other side has aerial recon and it's a wide open desert, and they are horses. Horses that don't need water or get exhausted. Dorne once poisoned all the wells in Dorne to prevent invasion, they drank sand. No fleet can invade dorne because of the Whirlpools, and the two or three ports that are easy access are poorly defended. So you know, don't hit there where the water is, like the Greenblood, go through the mountain pass bottle neck, and just try and use your dragons to chase down guys on horses. It can't be done I tell you, it can't.

The only time Dorne was successfully conquered was Nymeria. Came with a fleet of her half dead homeless people. Made a friend, got married, beat all the other little kingdoms in Dorne. See she had water magic, and water magic can defeat a desert. While fire magic can't because??? Dornish are immune to fire? Well their castles are. 

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Obviously he was not "right" to conquer Dorne, the same way Aegon was not "right" to conquer the seven Kingdoms, they did it for power and because they had dragons in one case and 10 times the numbers in the second.

The dornishmen were perfectly happy before being conquered and certainly stood to gain little from it, the Seven Kingdoms were equally ok without Dorne and gained little from its conquest, the only one who gained anything was Daeron, who did it for his personal glory and the overall hubris of house Targaryen. 

Regarding the conquest of Dorne, Aegon (with his dragons)  failed not because of the guerrilla tactics, though they were much better than open battle against dragons, but because he receive a message from the Prince of Dorne, it's contents still a mystery. Dorne defied conquest but had that message not been sent they would probably cease resistance eventually. As for Daeron, there are abundant examples in history of successful guerrilla wars fought for independence, for example Viriathus resisting the Romans. 

 

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16 hours ago, Valens said:

Daeron the Young Dragon...one of the most dashing, charming and heroic Targaryen kings ever. When he conquered Dorne, he accomplished something even Aegon the Conqueror couldn't. But, was he right in trying to conquer Dorne? Considering that it got him murdered, probably no, if you look it from that angle. But on other hand, was it right of a king of the mightiest dynasty in Westeros to ignore the fact that that little kingdom was defying them and remaining independent when so many much larger kingdoms fell and acknowledged the Targaryen rule? Absolutely not. In that way Daeron was right, but he made a mistake in returning to Dorne, thinking that they were a subdued people and would not attempt anything. This again shows us the dogged and fiery nature of Dornishmen. They will stop at nothing to get their revenge. In the end, it had been better if Daeron I had not done this, because then he'd live longer and perhaps achieve more. He would definitely do good for the realm, but his peacemaking skills needed honing. On the other side, Baelor kinda went too far in trying to make peace with Dorne and he humbled himself too much.

Oh yes, those "dogged and fiery Dornishmen". How awfully revenge-driven they were by wanting to protect their principality as a sovereign state after remaining independent from the Iron Throne for over 150 years! Daeron I obviously just had the right to conquer it because he owned the rest of the continent south of the Wall. What an accomplishment it was, holding Dorne for 4 years.

Baelor was the king who made an 8 year old the High Septon. At the same time, he wasn't entirely wrong with wanting to make peace with Dorne (almost getting himself killed while travelling to Sunspear was certainly a bad idea though). Several Dornish hostages did remain in the Red Keep, and he arranged the betrothal between Mariah and Daeron II, which was actually kind of smart. 

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Daeron I invaded Dorne with most of his bannermen he took with being Reachmen and marcher lords, natural enemies to the Dornishmen because of their numerous border conflicts. It was an unprovoked war in a sense that the Dornishmen hadn't raided the Reach and the Stormlands lately. But old enmity between them are mutual, and Dorne was never the innocense victim of the wars.

Think of the Dornishmen as some sort of raiders, they raided you when they were strong because "nationalism", playing victims when you want payback when they were because "nationalism".

I'd say, I have no idea why Obara hated Old Town so much she wanted to invade it when it had no tie with the Lannisters that they should hate more. The Dornishmen are actually blood-thirsty and they love foul play more than anyone but love to accuse others of doing so.

And since no punishment was done to the Dornishmen for their killing of Daeron I in peace banner, they probably took it for granted that they could just do anything under the word "nationalism".

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2 hours ago, WSmith84 said:

When is an unprovoked invasion simply to expand your own empire ever 'right'?

Get real! When the rest of Westeros could get invaded like that, why not Dorne? Why would DORNE be special? Who are they??

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1 hour ago, Valens said:

Get real! When the rest of Westeros could get invaded like that, why not Dorne? Why would DORNE be special? Who are they??

What made the invasion of Westeros 'right' either? Nothing. Aegon wanted to rule the place, plain and simple. When an invader wants to invade a place simply to expand their own power base, we generally give the 'moral high ground' to the invaded.

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2 hours ago, WSmith84 said:

What made the invasion of Westeros 'right' either? Nothing. Aegon wanted to rule the place, plain and simple. When an invader wants to invade a place simply to expand their own power base, we generally give the 'moral high ground' to the invaded.

Exactly, "right" in regards to conquering/ruling is in the eye of the beholder.  Robert, Rhaegar, Stannis, Joff, Robb, Renly it's just a common theme that nobody really has the "rightful claim to the throne" you either take it like Aegon did and Dareon tried with Dorne.  Or you die, as Cersei explained about the game.  

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