Jump to content

Boltons, Freys and Karstarks


Recommended Posts

Roose Bolton and the Freys betrayed the North by assassinating Robb Stark for the Lannisters. He traded nearby friends for a scarier one far away at a time when everyone was up for a scrap.

Last season, he married Sansa to Ramsay to solidify their family position as Warden of the North, even though this would be a great offense to the Lannisters, who installed him there to begin with, as well as to the loyal Northern lords, who don't want Boltons in Winterfell. Marrying the last (as far as they know) Stark isn't going to endear the Boltons to the North.

Then he plainly threatened Ramsay, saying that he was unnecessary to Roose's machinations and would lose all value if Walda Frey bore a son. He knows who Ramsay is, so he clearly knew it was an act of war.

In episode 6.2, Roose is scheming to go up against the rest of the North with the Freys and Karstarks as allies, which would place him in a two-front war with the North and the South. While detailing his plan, the son is born and he celebrates by delivering himself to Ramsay's knife.

Meanwhile, Karstark's apparently complicit with Ramsay. Why? He's making himself an enemy of the North while throwing in with a guy who the South also hates, but more than that, he knows Roose's plan will now have to unfurl without the Freys, because Ramsay's next move would obviously be to kill Walda and her son.

Frey doesn't care about his daughter, but he sure will care about the severance of his family's blood link to the Warden. His only real choice is to let the Boltons and Karstarks weaken themselves against the other Northern houses, then open up his lands to the Southern supply line, which will wipe out all remaining resistance, setting up the Freys to become the Warden of the North.

As someone who isn't a psychopath, I don't like Roose, but his actions aren't in line with his character. It just seems like D&D think if it'll make people go "OH S***" when it happens, then it must be good television. And it's not even one of those moments--everyone saw it coming. I think this is actually bothering me more than girl power versus the baddest bodyguard and stupidest Prince on the planet in 6.1.

Please. Someone smarter post something that makes it all seem sensible. I want to make it through this season.

I want to leave the above post intact for clarity regarding any existing responses, but I should add that my anger got the best of me last night. Roose chastised Ramsay for the plan, so while my many other criticisms stand, Roose did not endorse Ramsay's ridiculous plan. Note Miley's second post, though, which suggests Roose is planning to crown himself King of the North in the books, which would achieve the same result as Ramsay's plan, only with everyone even madder at House Bolton. And remember, this is not just a two-front war--it's a two-front war, one on which is civil. GRRM and D&D may have turned off the AI for most Northern lords after the red wedding, but they'll need to turn it back on if they bring them into another conflict, and this kind of shoddy writing will not hold up.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ramsey loses his shit and brutally murders his father in front of you. Do you:

A ) Attempt to fight the knife-wielding psycho 

B ) Insult or offend the obvious lunatic with the knife

C ) Try to run away and escape the heavily guarded castle of the volatile knife enthusiast

D) Keep it together and don't lose your chill with the murderous killer who is now also the Warden of the North. Let him know you're not a threat to him whatsoever until you put many miles between your gut and his knife. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, The Mediocre Other said:

Roose Bolton and the Freys betrayed the North by assassinating Robb Stark for the Lannisters. He traded nearby friends for a scarier one far away at a time when everyone was up for a scrap.

Last season, he married Sansa to Ramsay to solidify their family position as Warden of the North, even though this would be a great offense to the Lannisters, who installed him there to begin with, as well as to the loyal Northern lords, who don't want Boltons in Winterfell. Marrying the last (as far as they know) Stark isn't going to endear the Boltons to the North.

Then he plainly threatened Ramsay, saying that he was unnecessary to Roose's machinations and would lose all value if Walda Frey bore a son. He knows who Ramsay is, so he clearly knew it was an act of war.

In episode 6.2, Roose is scheming to go up against the rest of the North with the Freys and Karstarks as allies, which would place him in a two-front war with the North and the South. While detailing his plan, the son is born and he celebrates by delivering himself to Ramsay's knife.

Meanwhile, Karstark's apparently complicit with Ramsay. Why? He's making himself an enemy of the North while throwing in with a guy who the South also hates, but more than that, he knows Roose's plan will now have to unfurl without the Freys, because Ramsay's next move would obviously be to kill Walda and her son.

Frey doesn't care about his daughter, but he sure will care about the severance of his family's blood link to the Warden. His only real choice is to let the Boltons and Karstarks weaken themselves against the other Northern houses, then open up his lands to the Southern supply line, which will wipe out all remaining resistance, setting up the Freys to become the Warden of the North.

As someone who isn't a psychopath, I don't like Roose, but his actions aren't in line with his character. It just seems like D&D think if it'll make people go "OH S***" when it happens, then it must be good television. And it's not even one of those moments--everyone saw it coming. I think this is actually bothering me more than girl power versus the baddest bodyguard and stupidest Prince on the planet in 6.1.

Please. Someone smarter post something that makes it all seem sensible. I want to make it through this season.

I believe the Manderlys were also mentioned along with the Karstarks as allies.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The thing with roose is that even in the books he expects to meet opposition from king's landing at some point. Lady dustin, for example, tells reek that roose is likely planning to name himself king in the north as soon as he's done with stannis and manderly, because there really isn't anyone else to stop him. So I think he's not afraid of fighting a war in two fronts, not really, partly because he knows the lannisters are too busy down at the south to focus on him, and that's also true in the show. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Stannis is the man....nis said:

There is no sense to it. The moment they decided to have Sansa as Jenye and cut Wyman, Lady Dustin, and the other Lords from the plot, Roose's motivations lost as sense of logic 

Which part doesn't make sense, exactly? Granted, roose pushing ramsey's buttons to the boiling point was unroose-y but other than that I don't see what's so implausible about this plot. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In the books Roose has Ramasy on a leash. Even Ramsay's bastard's boys actually serve Roose rather than Ramsay.

Without Roose no one would follow Rasmay in the books and the vast majority of the northern houses would immediately rebel.

But the show operates on a different logic, just like Dorne.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, Miley the Monstrous said:

Which part doesn't make sense, exactly? Granted, roose pushing ramsey's buttons to the boiling point was unroose-y but other than that I don't see what's so implausible about this plot. 

The part where Harald Karstark would do Ramsay's bidding. 

Harald should use this moment to take the North for himself. 

1) Harald has the half the military force of the North behind him according to the show

2) Ramsay is a kinslayer and also an enemy of the crown which means Harald is knowingly tying himself down to a losing horse

3) Ramsay's about to attack the Night's Watch and push the other northern lords away from him

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Manderlys aren't mentioned as allies, in fact, all the Northern families are mentioned as potential allies, so they went and tried to get them on their side, it doesn't mean they succeeded with taking every big Northern house by their side.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Miley the Monstrous said:

Ramsey loses his shit and brutally murders his father in front of you. Do you:

A ) Attempt to fight the knife-wielding psycho 

B ) Insult or offend the obvious lunatic with the knife

C ) Try to run away and escape the heavily guarded castle of the volatile knife enthusiast

D) Keep it together and don't lose your chill with the murderous killer who is now also the Warden of the North. Let him know you're not a threat to him whatsoever until you put many miles between your gut and his knife. 

You misunderstand my point here. I'm not asking why Karstark didn't draw his sword and scream, "For great justice!" in the middle of another man's keep.

My point is that it's clear he and Ramsay had already come to an understanding before the assassination, despite the caveats I listed above, for the chance to go after Jon Snow. Jon had nothing to do with the War of Five Kings or Old Karstark's beheading, and I believe there's no history of bastards in the Night's Watch being legitimized and relieved of their oath (in life), so he poses no political threat to Ramsay. It's babytown frolics.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, GeorgeIAF said:

The Manderlys aren't mentioned as allies, in fact, all the Northern families are mentioned as potential allies, so they went and tried to get them on their side, it doesn't mean they succeeded with taking every big Northern house by their side.

In books, the Manderlys are allies too. Except it's a Mummer's show. Different houses are with the Boltons. But how may are mummers?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think it's as simple as Ramsay appealing to the vanity and greed of the younger generations.

For the loyalty of young Karstark and Umber, he's probably promised them a more equal cut of the North, more power, land, etc.....this is why Karstark says it's time for new blood. These lads don't care about the old traditions, only that the North is ripe for carving. 

Their only problem is, well...that they're ignorant of just how much of a snake Ramsay is, and that he's using them for his own gain. So, by playing the game so naively, it's fairly safe to say that the Karstarks and Umbers are not long for this world.

The Manderlys are still playing a con, but how that con works now that Rickon will be in the hands of Ramsay is anyone's guess. Maybe that itself is the catalyst for switching sides.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Ser Matt Dayne said:

I think it's as simple as Ramsay appealing to the vanity and greed of the younger generations.

For the loyalty of young Karstark and Umber, he's probably promised them a more equal cut of the North, more power, land, etc.....this is why Karstark says it's time for new blood. These lads don't care about the old traditions, only that the North is ripe for carving. 

Their only problem is, well...that they're ignorant of just how much of a snake Ramsay is, and that he's using them for his own gain. So, by playing the game so naively, it's fairly safe to say that the Karstarks and Umbers are not long for this world.

The Manderlys are still playing a con, but how that con works now that Rickon will be in the hands of Ramsay is anyone's guess. Maybe that itself is the catalyst for switching sides.

 

I'd go with this.

At this point its pretty unclear what the Karstarks motivation is, because they've not been on screen for a long time. So really its all guesswork as to what they thought about Roose or Ramsey being in charge. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On May 2, 2016 at 3:20 AM, Miley the Monstrous said:

Which part doesn't make sense, exactly? Granted, roose pushing ramsey's buttons to the boiling point was unroose-y but other than that I don't see what's so implausible about this plot. 

I totally get Karstark being with Ramsay. But Im sorry this "Umbers are evil" plotline is stupid. The Umbers have been portrayed as Stark loyalists in the show and the guy who's bad is someone who in the books died protecting Robb at the RW. This reeks of D&D wanting to stack the odds against our scrappy heroes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Ser Matt Dayne said:

I think it's as simple as Ramsay appealing to the vanity and greed of the younger generations.

For the loyalty of young Karstark and Umber, he's probably promised them a more equal cut of the North, more power, land, etc.....this is why Karstark says it's time for new blood. These lads don't care about the old traditions, only that the North is ripe for carving. 

Their only problem is, well...that they're ignorant of just how much of a snake Ramsay is, and that he's using them for his own gain. So, by playing the game so naively, it's fairly safe to say that the Karstarks and Umbers are not long for this world.

The Manderlys are still playing a con, but how that con works now that Rickon will be in the hands of Ramsay is anyone's guess. Maybe that itself is the catalyst for switching sides.

 

Not that I wouldn't prefer this to it turning out that the Umbers and Manderlys (of all people) are Bolton lackeys, but the episode this week really didn't give a lot of support these inferences.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...