Promise Me Ned (Spoilers)

[Jon Snow Bengal]

23 hours ago, The Answer said:

The guilt Ned felt throughout AGoT in reference to Lyanna's "Promise me" is inexplicable.  Most assume he fulfilled the promise by keeping Jon's identity secret; tucking him away up North.. away from the politics of Westeros and Robert's wrath.  

Then why feel guilty?

We finally get to witness the oath Ned swore to his sister... and it won't be what most presume. 

Ned is the Oathbreaker  

Yes i agree & suggested it also in the other S6 Oathbreaker thread (First use of this word in the series).

It makes sense that Ned intended to keep his promise/oath to Lyanna but then when he saw what happened to the other Targaryen children, he saw the futility in it & changed his mind. Perhaps his oath was to protect Jon AND raise him to take his rightful place as King..... Under the circumstances, Ned could not do both of these things so had to choose.

Ned understood after the Targaryen children were killed that to keep his oath would've mean't starting another war with his friend Robert & also the powerful King slaying, baby killing, honorless Lannisters. Ned broke his oath for peace, for the realm & most importantly, to protect Jons life.

[Nerevanin]

Now this is getting interesting a lot! Now you just made me unbelievable excited for the next episode. The idea of Ned being the oathbreaker is just mindblowing.

[Ludo Kressh]

How about this: He feels guilt for protecting Jon's true identity not just because he lied to Cat but perhaps because he felt that he betrayed his family's name in a way. The Mad King killed his father and brother and Rhaegar supposedly kidnapped his sister and he went to war with Robert because of it. Now Lyanna makes Ned promise to raise her half Targaryen child as his own, going against everything Ned has fought for thus far. But it's his sister and he loves her and makes the promise and lives with the guilt of that decision for the rest of his life.

And for the same reason I can't see him gearing him up or promising to make Jon the next Targaryen heir....they murdered his father and brother, he's not going to allow another Targaryen to sit on the Iron Throne. He'll raise him as his own, albeit as a bastard, but he would never see him on the Iron Throne. And honestly, I can't see Lyanna asking Ned to do such a thing.

It is an interesting theory though.

[The Answer]

29 minutes ago, Nerevanin said:

Now this is getting interesting a lot! Now you just made me unbelievable excited for the next episode. The idea of Ned being the oathbreaker is just mindblowing.

You're telling me... 

39 minutes ago, Jon Snow Bengal said:

Yes i agree & suggested it also in the other S6 Oathbreaker thread (First use of this word in the series).

It makes sense that Ned intended to keep his promise/oath to Lyanna but then when he saw what happened to the other Targaryen children, he saw the futility in it & changed his mind. Perhaps his oath was to protect Jon AND raise him to take his rightful place as King..... Under the circumstances, Ned could not do both of these things so had to choose.

Ned understood after the Targaryen children were killed that to keep his oath would've mean't starting another war with his friend Robert & also the powerful King slaying, baby killing, honorless Lannisters. Ned broke his oath for peace, for the realm & most importantly, to protect Jons life.

Well said.  

Here's a thought.  Regardless of if Ned is the Oathbreaker or not,  we should finally see the Jon parentage reveal very soon,  if not this Sunday.   

I just had a sudden sense of fear thinking,  so who the hell is going to believe it anyway.. that this traitor Lord Commander has a claim to the throne?   The word is coming from a young crannogwoman Meera Reed who is taking the word from a presumed dead Bram Stark? Wtf

1. Either that's where Howland finally emerges to verify the proclamation OR

2.  It makes no difference because Jon already has the Wildlings and secretly/maybe/hopefully Northern houses already rallying behind him.   So getting this info from Meera only strengthens a cause already in motion?

 

 

[Jon Snow Bengal]

1 hour ago, The Answer said:

You're telling me... 

Well said.  

Here's a thought.  Regardless of if Ned is the Oathbreaker or not,  we should finally see the Jon parentage reveal very soon,  if not this Sunday.   

I just had a sudden sense of fear thinking,  so who the hell is going to believe it anyway.. that this traitor Lord Commander has a claim to the throne?   The word is coming from a young crannogwoman Meera Reed who is taking the word from a presumed dead Bram Stark? Wtf

1. Either that's where Howland finally emerges to verify the proclamation OR

2.  It makes no difference because Jon already has the Wildlings and secretly/maybe/hopefully Northern houses already rallying behind him.   So getting this info from Meera only strengthens a cause already in motion?

 

 

It is a difficult claim to prove isn't it?

There's the prophecy... but not many people know about that & if they do then would they care? Sams storyline might be useful in uncovering all the details of the prophecy.

I remember reading once a suggestion that Rhaegars harp might be in Lyannas tomb (or some other proof of their relationship). There is no doubt that the tombs are important somehow.

Maybe Jon may develop the ability to warg both Dragons & Direwolves - Mel could possibly help him hone these skills.

There's always the Red Priests. There seems to be a lot of them & if they see it in their fires & spread the word, he could develop quite a following.

Howland Reed was with Ned Stark at the TOJ so he will know what happened there. Holland Reed told Jojen about ToJ so Meera probably knows to (it is not know what details Howland told Jojen).  

Benjen may have been witness to Lyannas relationship with Rhaegar and when Ned returned with the baby figured it out. Benjen told Jon that he would tell him about his mother when he returned from his Ranging in Season 1. So presumably Benjen knows who Jons mother is.

The White Walkers may also confirm it whenever it is revealed what their story is & why they are so pi**ed with ... well, anyone who isn't them.

People will follow where the power lies. If Jon wargs a dragon, rides a dragon then people will just follow him, like the Dothraki will eventually do with Dany.

Maybe there will be no people left in Westeros to convince (Danys vision).

The real battle is supposedly between the living and the dead - Jon is both.

 

.... Just had a random thought.... What an efficient way to build an ice wall than with a couple of big ice breathing  ICE Dragons? A bit of a random thought but might as well write it down.... and what a better way to melt a wall than with fire breathing ones which form a sea to keep the White Walkers out of the rest of Westeros..

 

 

 

[Nerevanin]

8 minutes ago, Jon Snow Bengal said:

Howland Reed was with Ned Stark at the TOJ so he will know what happened there. Holland Reed told Jojen about ToJ so Meera probably knows to (it is not know what details Howland told Jojen). 

 

No. In S3E2 Jojen says to Bran: "Your father told you about the rebellion? Mine never did." But he continues: "But I saw that, too." So Jojen knew what happened if he saw the complete history of the rebellion and not just parts (because it is not very clear from his saying what exactly he saw, although I feel it like he saw it all but it's just a speculation). But Jojen is dead in the show. And it's hard to say what he told Meera before his death. In the books Jojen knows when he's gonna die and I suppose that it will happen soon so he probably said something to Meera but in my opinion Meera often seems a bit clueless and relies on anything her brother tells her and it seems to me that he doesn't tell her more than necessary. It's possible that neither the book Meera, nor the show one knows anything about it. But it's just a speculation. I can't remember if Jojen says in the books something like that his father didn't tell him about the rebellion but he did tell him about the Knight of the Laughing Tree so it's possible that the book Jojen knows something about the rebellion without needing to use his green dreams.

[The Answer]

25 minutes ago, Jon Snow Bengal said:

I remember reading once a suggestion that Rhaegars harp might be in Lyannas tomb (or some other proof of their relationship). There is no doubt that the tombs are important somehow.

Maybe Jon may develop the ability to warg both Dragons & Direwolves - Mel could possibly help him hone these skills.

There's always the Red Priests. There seems to be a lot of them & if they see it in their fires & spread the word, he could develop quite a following.

Howland Reed was with Ned Stark at the TOJ so he will know what happened there. Holland Reed told Jojen about ToJ so Meera probably knows to (it is not know what details Howland told Jojen).  

Benjen may have been witness to Lyannas relationship with Rhaegar and when Ned returned with the baby figured it out. Benjen told Jon that he would tell him about his mother when he returned from his Ranging in Season 1. So presumably Benjen knows who Jons mother is.

The real battle is supposedly between the living and the dead - Jon is both.

 

 

I like this.

I believe the little child in the forest said Bran will not be staying in the tree forever, so if he goes back south, I'd bet on Bran to teach Jon warging before Mel.  

I like that a lot... word will spread all over - even to Essos?

I don't know that Howland and Meera talked much about dreams or prophecies.  At least in the show it seems like she's so in the dark unlike Jojen.

Damn... Many do speculate his joining the NW was related to his ToJ knowledge.

You're pushing it there!  Jon isn't dead... He's back!!

 

[Jon Snow Bengal]

41 minutes ago, Nerevanin said:

No. In S3E2 Jojen says to Bran: "Your father told you about the rebellion? Mine never did." But he continues: "But I saw that, too." So Jojen knew what happened if he saw the complete history of the rebellion and not just parts (because it is not very clear from his saying what exactly he saw, although I feel it like he saw it all but it's just a speculation). But Jojen is dead in the show. And it's hard to say what he told Meera before his death. In the books Jojen knows when he's gonna die and I suppose that it will happen soon so he probably said something to Meera but in my opinion Meera often seems a bit clueless and relies on anything her brother tells her and it seems to me that he doesn't tell her more than necessary. It's possible that neither the book Meera, nor the show one knows anything about it. But it's just a speculation. I can't remember if Jojen says in the books something like that his father didn't tell him about the rebellion but he did tell him about the Knight of the Laughing Tree so it's possible that the book Jojen knows something about the rebellion without needing to use his green dreams.

Yes you are right. My memory had it backwards - I thought Bran said the "Mine never did" part. Go figure.

Howland still has the potential to show up & you are right about Meera seemingly being kept in the dark. Howland probably won't turn up but there's always potential- maybe they'll make a token effort like show the banners in some fight scene.

It shouldn't be that surprising that people thought Bran would just stay in the tree forever as this seems to be what Bloodraven has done. 

But how will they escape from the cave? Will Bran warg a dragon that they can all fly on? Bloodraven said he would fly & I'd like to see Hodor on a dragon  

Or will they superslide south through the roots of the giant weirwood network? 

There's just not enough screen time for another arduous journey south - along with all the potential dangers on the way.

 

[dbunting]

Why would the wording be changed now to oath breaker in reference to Ned? This doesn't make a bit of sense. Ned made a promise not an oath, clearly remembers it as such. Why twist this to fit some weak narrative to change who he is as a man, a father, a Lord, and as a legendary honorable man, to call him an oath breaker? Does that make any sense?

There are plenty of other people to use this on in the next episode:

Jaime just reminded the High Sparrow that he broke his oath

Arya has broken hers in training

The nights watch men who participated in killing Jon

What's her name in Dorne killed her Prince

We don't need to assassinate Ned's character by naming him an oath breaker.

[239JMFL34109]

Also did Ned break his oath? 

IF his promise is keep him safe and etc... that he kept it. 

This feels like jaime, the greyjoy's, and jon bits. 

[ToTheWolves]

I don't know if it's just me, but something seems off about the "and now it begins"..."no, now it ends" Scene in the preview for next episode. Granted i haven't seen the full episode , but I don't think it's going to be as poetic and beautiful like in the books. I think the "rant without repercussions thread is going to explode next episode. 

[The Answer]

1 hour ago, dbunting said:

Why would the wording be changed now to oath breaker in reference to Ned? This doesn't make a bit of sense. Ned made a promise not an oath, clearly remembers it as such. Why twist this to fit some weak narrative to change who he is as a man, a father, a Lord, and as a legendary honorable man, to call him an oath breaker? Does that make any sense?

There are plenty of other people to use this on in the next episode:

Jaime just reminded the High Sparrow that he broke his oath

Arya has broken hers in training

The nights watch men who participated in killing Jon

What's her name in Dorne killed her Prince

We don't need to assassinate Ned's character by naming him an oath breaker.

If you look up "a solemn promise to your dieing sister" in the dictionary.. Oath will be the first word you come across.   

After you take a shower tonight in Ned's fictional fantasy sweat - mentally prepare yourself for the realization that he may not have been honorable in all respects.

 

[239JMFL34109]

10 minutes ago, The Answer said:

If you look up "a solemn promise to your dieing sister" in the dictionary.. Oath will be the first word you come across.   

After you take a shower tonight in Ned's fictional fantasy sweat - mentally prepare yourself for the realization that he may not have been honorable in all respects.

 

I just think ned did keep his oath. the guilt is the lying to your friends and loved ones for 14 years. 

there is also probably a lot of survivor's guilt. He is married to the hot wife his brother was suppose to marry, living in the castle his brother was suppose to have, using the sword his brother was suppose to use, with the beautiful kids his brother was suppose to have, and etc... 

IF he was not Ned Stark you would think if ned had his father and brother killed so he could take power in ASOIAF universe. 

[The Answer]

14 minutes ago, 239JMFL34109 said:

I just think ned did keep his oath. the guilt is the lying to your friends and loved ones for 14 years. 

there is also probably a lot of survivor's guilt. He is married to the hot wife his brother was suppose to marry, living in the castle his brother was suppose to have, using the sword his brother was suppose to use, with the beautiful kids his brother was suppose to have, and etc... 

IF he was not Ned Stark you would think if ned had his father and brother killed so he could take power in ASOIAF universe. 

Why does he utter to himself Promise me Ned over and over throughout the book if he fulfilled the promise to Lyanna?

I'm married to the hot fiance of my dead brother should have married - Promise me Ned
I'm Lord of WF in my brothers place - Promise me Ned
It doesn't fit....

I agree with you that he's guilty about lying to friends and family, it's just the lie we differ on.  

[239JMFL34109]

3 minutes ago, The Answer said:

Why does he utter to himself Promise me Ned over and over throughout the book if he fulfilled the promise to Lyanna?

I'm married to the hot fiance of my dead brother should have married - Promise me Ned
I'm Lord of WF in my brothers place - Promise me Ned
It doesn't fit....

I agree with you that he's guilty about lying to friends and family, it's just the lie we differ on.  

Promise me is because he is stuck in the game of thrones he was trying to keep jon from getting killed by. He is again in a place where childern could died cause of the game of thrones.  that was why he keeps remembering promise me. 

The rest is not about promises me but it is very clear he feels guilty about how he is alive and his siblings died. That is one of the reason he is so honorable and etc.. he doesn't feel worthy about everything he has received in life. 

[The Answer]

1 hour ago, 239JMFL34109 said:

Promise me is because he is stuck in the game of thrones he was trying to keep jon from getting killed by. He is again in a place where childern could died cause of the game of thrones.  that was why he keeps remembering promise me. 

The rest is not about promises me but it is very clear he feels guilty about how he is alive and his siblings died. That is one of the reason he is so honorable and etc.. he doesn't feel worthy about everything he has received in life. 

You write like you spoke to George two nights ago at Sunday Supper.. you can't possibly be so cretain in your interpretation? 

What are you going to do if Ned completely let his sister down? 

[Rhaegar Targaryen's Ghost]

I can't see the Oathbreaker being anyone except for Jon. 

[Mexican Whooping Llama]

What if Lyanna didn't ask Ned to keep Jon safe and instead it was the opposite? What if she wanted him to die because she didn't want him to fulfill the Targ prophecy?

For example: What if Lyanna is found chained in the tower after being raped by Rhaeger & forced to give birth and she wants the child killed but Ned can't go through with it?  We've repeatedly seen his soft spot for children.  

I want Lyanna & Rhaeger to be a love story but what if it was anything but that?

[bringerofhope]

Methinks we'll still be left with some big moments happening off camera...

Few reasons for this:

I. D&D as well as GRRM realize that the mental image(s) we create are sometimes more satisfying than the ones they can portray

II. Bran's and Bloodraven's eyes can't see everywhere can they?  e.g. outside ToJ but not inside

III.  Practical/economical factors such as creating settings/props/costumes for a scene we see once; not to mention casting characters for a few minutes of screen time

[sandpiper]

ok, so suppose Ned promised to support jon as the rightful heir to the throne, either Rhaegar having married Lyanna or formally legitimated him somehow. I am not absolutely sure of the chronology, and not precisely sure whether anyone is certain of the chronology. However, at this point Ned is one of the key players in the kingdom, in charge of big armies. This seems to be after Jamie says Ned turned down becoming king himself. When we see Ned later as lord stark, he is just a provincial lord and mate of the king, but at this moment in time he has half the power of the kingdom at his command. If it turns out Lyanna and Rhaegar was a love match and no one was ever kidnapped, that demolished half the reason for the revolt in the first place. The other half, the mad king himself is already dead, having been dispatched by his own bodyguard because his insanity finally became intolerable. Rhaegar  seems to have been respected, and likely no one would object to the baby as king. The balance of power would be restored, because it is clear from what happens later that no one was terribly happy with the Baratheon-Lanister takeover.

But then Ned decided it would still lead to too much bloodshed. Seems now...things could hardly have been worse had he gone for it, and maybe that is what haunted him when waiting to be executed.

So the fate of the world  turned on faithlessness of the character set up to be the most honourable at the very start. Its a powerfull theme for a book.

Just one more crumb...Had he been allowed to take the black and go to the nights watch, at least he could have explained to Jon. Might have influenced his decision to ask for mercy.