Rhaegar and Lyanna weren't in love

[Jak Scaletongue]

16 hours ago, MtnLion said:

Let me take a crack at enlightenment.  "Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and the Seven Kingdoms paid the price", says Ser Barristan Selmy.  He was in a position to know, at an age to know.  He certainly proved his love, to me, when I read that he died with a woman's name on his lips, which GRRM has confirmed as being "Lyanna." 

Starting with Harrenhal, Elia attends, after being bedridden for half a year from Rhaenys' birth.  (Look at the dates for marriage of Rhaegar and Elia, and birth of Rhaenys.  Look at Rhaenys' age at death.)  Aegon was conceived, most likely after Harrnehal, proving that Rhaegar was faithful, though only "fond" of his wife.  Aegon is born during the winter that fallowed the false spring of Harrenhal, and soon after Rhaegar disappeared.  Brandon responded to Littlefinger's challenge to the betrothal announcement of Catelyn, as soon as the weather permitted him to make the journey.  Rhaegar had been on the road for months by that time, since he had disappeared before the Black Water froze and Aerys commanded fires be lit to drive the cold away.  What Rhaegar had intended to do is yet to be known, but it appears that he and Lyanna met near Harrenhal.  Lyanna had been at Winterfell when he betrothal to Robert was announced (I don't believe that we would be out of line to assume that it was near the same time as Catelyn's and Brandon's betrothal announcement.  Both would have needed the king's approval.)  So, as Brandon left for Riverrun, Lyanna is in Winterfell and possibly preparing to depart for Storm's end, for her wedding.  We know that Littlefinger was laid up for a fortnight after the duel.  We also know that Brandon begged leave from Catelyn to take care of an errand, and that he would return shortly for their wedding.  It is on his return journey to Riverrun that he receives word that has him dash off to King's Landing.  It seems that that is more than a fortnight after his duel, based upon Littlefinger being commanded out of Riverrun. 

What do we know about the two?  Rhaegar may have had the intent to go to the Wall and see Maester Aemon, and discuss things face to face.  He knows that Elia cannot have any more children, but the prophesy requires a third head for the dragon.  "There must be one more."  He had presented the crown to Lyanna at Harrenhal, out of respect for what she had done as the Knight of the Laughin Tree.  He had not thought of her, since. 

Lyanna is betrothed to a man that she cannot find attractive, because of his whoring, and likely drinking.  Her father will not let her out of it.  She even tried to get Ned to support her dropping the betrothal.  These are very powerful houses, and there is no way to nullify the betrothal short of a royal intervention.  Enter Prince Rhaegar.  She likely pleads her case with the prince, and together they work out a plan to set aside her betrothal.  Over time, they develop a strong relationship, yes love.  Marry, then run off to hiding. 

Many authors will tell you all of the stories have been told, and that only the names are changed, but the stories remain the same.  It is true, only specific traits and stories make us human readers, listeners, observers identify with the hero and cheer for his eventual victory.  These are no different, in spite of references to "tropes", etc. 

While I agree you've got good points, it does nothing to convince me of anything.  Barristan's a romantic, and while I generally consider him reliable, it's reliability with a grain of salt.  I made it quite clear that as of book 5 I am not convinced.  I may be convinced through books 6 and/or 7, and IDEALLY I'd like to get at least a little insight into Lyanna's mind before deciding that Barristan is the gospel truth. 

And, as a side note, and maybe relevant and maybe not - BUT, it is possible he used her then grew to love her.  Maybe.  There are far too many "if's" and "possibly's" for ME* to be confident either way.  And regardless of your confidence, I can't quite shake the feeling that something is wrong with the tale we've been told.

*If you're confident, GREAT. Doesn't mean I have to be.

13 hours ago, lancerman said:

-We don't know how many times Rheagar and Lyanna met (and the context of any possible meetings) before the "abduction".

-We don't know the context of the "abduction".

-We don't know anything about Rheagar and Lyanna in their moments together post "abduction".

-We quite frankely don't know much of anything about Lyanna or Rheagar besides what other non reliable narrators have said about them.

There just isn't enough to go on either way.

Exactly what I was trying to get across.  I'm not good at point form.

5 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Yup! You pretty much just confirmed my assertion that I do know why so many have a problem with them being in love. Sure there are a few other reasons people tend to give. But this right here sums up a large proportion of it. 

I have a real problem with the patronising, sanctimonious, and patriarchal insistence that Love is only one particular thing and that any form of relationship which does not fit into that very small mould of what the - sanctioned as suitable idea; of what love is. Absolutely can not be love. 

It pisses me off on so many levels. Suffice to say. No. You do not get to dictate to anyone else if what they feel for someone is love or not, no matter if that person is 16 or 60. 

Love can be scientifically taken to pieces, it is basically a cocktail of hormones. The thrilling attraction part of love is still love. yes lust comes into it, but to dictate that the only "real" form of love is the secondary stage, the bonded Oxytocin driven stage; is BS.  Without the first, what you are left with is not romantic love it is friendship. 

Sometimes you meet a person and feel instantly attracted. Sometimes you know a person for years and gradually become attracted. Sometimes you have all the besotted dopamine driven first stage stuff but don't feel sexual desire. But you don't get to dictate which of these scenario's constitutes love for another person. 

Now as to the story, When we read without relying on our own personal feelings, experiences and beliefs. We see a much clearer picture of the story. The author has placed several clues in the story to hint it was love. Though it is far from certain. But we also know the author is a self confessed romantic. And that he uses many folk tale references in his writing. And I'm afraid to inform you that Love at first sight is a HUGE folk tale trope. Like one of the biggest and most common. 

And there are love at first sight references in the Rhaegar and Lyanna story as we know it.   Not that I'm suggesting he really would make it that they fell in love at first sight and that was that. But that what happened will be easily able to be made into a "love at first site story" by the singers. 

What if after during the Tourney they interacted more than we have been told about, in private. And began to flirt, they like each other. There is attraction, and they find they get along well. 

But nothing happens right away. Then say they correspond over the intervening period and find that they have a LOT of common ground. They form a relationship via letters.  And still they each recall how they liked the others eyes, smile, smell, the sound of their laughter. Or the beautiful songs that the other sang. Absence makes the heart grow fonder. And Lyanna comes to realise she truly can not marry Robert.  And simultaneously Rhaegar gets news Elia will never be able to bring him another child.  Each mourns their fate, a loveless unhappy marriage, the failure to fulfil the prophesy. One day, a letter comes and one has finally declared their love. Idea's happen, hey what if we marry? in secret!. My family has a history of polygamy. It hasn't ever been truly outlawed. I have a good reason for it too. My wife.... Yes! it might just work. And so a plan is hatched and the rest as they say is history.  

This is just one scenario I can see happening. But it is imo most in line with the story. 

To dismiss the idea they could love each other simply because your own ideas of what love is do not fit with their situation, is ignorant and smacks of sanctimonious, control driven BS. 

 

 

 

 

Screw you and your "sanctimonious" crap.  I started my post with the words "SPEAKING ONLY FOR MYSELF..."  and throughout the post I made it absolutely clear that it was MY OPINION ONLY.  And I made it clear that I was speaking to MY EXPERIENCES with love.  Not yours, not Tianzi, not Wall Flowers.  MY EXPERIENCES.  I don't know if you've noticed, but EVERYONE reads these (and any books) through the view point of THEIR OWN LIVES.  You CANNOT tell me my opinion and experiences are WRONG, just like I DID NOT tell all of you you're all wrong - I didn't, I merely stated how *I* feel about Lyanna/Rhaegar, as of book 5.  With the concession that with more information my opinion is likely to change.  I really can't make it more clear than that.  I have every right to offer a dissenting opinion.  So screw you.

Now, as for the bolded part - there are a lot of scenarios that could happen.  You feel one is more likely than others, FINE.  I don't feel one scenario stands above the rest, that's fine, too.  But the fact that we have to create our own scenarios just goes to show that there isn't enough information to know the truth.  Just because I can't shake the feeling that something's wrong with the tale we've been told, and don't quite trust the information we have doesn't mean you can't.  BUT, I am free to express my opinion as well.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

1 hour ago, zandru said:

Just a few odds & ends:

Some of you have made a big deal of Lyanna being a mere child (or foolish teenager) of 16. Westeros ain't 21st century America. Sixteen makes a dude a "man grown", ready and capable of taking on all of a man's responsibilities. A girl becomes a woman at first menses - 12 or 13. (Sidenote: I predict Arya will be older than that, 14 or 15 or so, because she's so lean and athletic.) And girls, returning to the topic, have also been in training for "womanhood" for many years before they reach 12. Children in Westeros are on an accelerated track, compared to the US. They're taught the responsibilities of adults, and GIVEN the responsibilities of adults, at much earlier ages than we are even capable of imagining. This, in fact, is how it's been through most of human history. So Lyanna would have been no "teeny-bopper."

Wall Flower rightly warns against "projecting our own preferences and prejudices." This goes for the "is Lyanna a 'bad person'" meme, as well as for the "teenager" trope. Robert Baratheon was not considered "bad", although he whored, drank, and took his greatest pleasure in killing, whether man or beast. Women probably get less slack, but I suspect that the responsibility, the "agency" as it were, would be attributed to Rhaegar, not Lyanna - and, if not for Robert's rage, might have passed unremarked, except for the inevitable smirks.

Moreover, what if Rhaegar and Lyanna married, in formal Westerosi matrimony? Targaryeons get to do that, marrying multiple wives and even siblings. So it wouldn't be anything at all like "running away with the office manager" (er, "secretary" if you want to go all 20th century). It could have been viewed as legitimate. Maybe the crow announcing the happy event ended up in a pot'o brown. And, as we know, history is written by the victors. Worse yet, in Westeros, history is apparently "written" by "the singers", who gladly sacrifice accuracy and detail for a good story, a welcome to the halls of said victors, and plenty of the ol' romance & chivalry.

I agree with big portions of this, But I would add to bear in mind, that many hundreds of thousands of readers and members of this forum are simply not Americans. and don't care about American convention in terms of how we view 16 year olds. 

at 16 I for instance lived alone, supported myself, paid my bills, conducted relationships, worked, fell in love etc, at 19 I was also supporting my now husband whom I'd been with for 3 years and had found himself redundant. To me the idea that teenagers are all feckless idiots who are incapable of making life choices or understanding their own emotions is absurd. I've noticed American culture massively infantilises young adults.  And that often they forget the rest of the world is not identical in it's attitudes. 

Something I think a lot of forum users simply fail to grasp.

 

 

[MtnLion]

50 minutes ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

While I agree you've got good points, it does nothing to convince me of anything.  Barristan's a romantic, and while I generally consider him reliable, it's reliability with a grain of salt.  I made it quite clear that as of book 5 I am not convinced.  I may be convinced through books 6 and/or 7, and IDEALLY I'd like to get at least a little insight into Lyanna's mind before deciding that Barristan is the gospel truth. 

That does not account for dying with a woman's name on his lips, which GRRM confirmed was "Lyanna".  I agree with you about Lyanna, though the female acquaintances that are familiar with the story tell me that she loved him.  The things they point to are the flowers/crown (even Ned makes sure that she is wearing the crown in the crypts, and says that she loved . . . flowers").  I would point also to the promises that she extracted from Ned, before allowing herself to go. 

A lot of the proof is really what is not said.  Ned does not despise Rhaegar, which I am certain he would, if Rhaegar had been a rapist or done anything against his sister's will.  Ned loved his sibling Lyanna, that is clear.  Further, if the Kingsguard at the tower had offended Ned in any way, he would not have held them in as high esteem as he does when describing them to Bran.  He would not have built individual cairns for them, as he did.  So much about how Ned does not react tells us that there was nothing to react to. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

1 hour ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

Screw you and your "sanctimonious" crap.  I started my post with the words "SPEAKING ONLY FOR MYSELF..."  and throughout the post I made it absolutely clear that it was MY OPINION ONLY.  And I made it clear that I was speaking to MY EXPERIENCES with love.  Not yours, not Tianzi, not Wall Flowers.  MY EXPERIENCES.  I don't know if you've noticed, but EVERYONE reads these (and any books) through the view point of THEIR OWN LIVES.  You CANNOT tell me my opinion and experiences are WRONG, just like I DID NOT tell all of you you're all wrong - I didn't, I merely stated how *I* feel about Lyanna/Rhaegar, as of book 5.  With the concession that with more information my opinion is likely to change.  I really can't make it more clear than that.  I have every right to offer a dissenting opinion.  So screw you.

Now, as for the bolded part - there are a lot of scenarios that could happen.  You feel one is more likely than others, FINE.  I don't feel one scenario stands above the rest, that's fine, too.  But the fact that we have to create our own scenarios just goes to show that there isn't enough information to know the truth.  Just because I can't shake the feeling that something's wrong with the tale we've been told, and don't quite trust the information we have doesn't mean you can't.  BUT, I am free to express my opinion as well.

Interesting that whilst you twice say Screw you to me, your signature asserts Manners matter.  

Pretty sure that breaks forum rules about personal attacks btw.  

 

There is something wrong with the tale we've been told. She wasn't raped and kidnapped as we are told she was.  It is very easy to forget that what forum users have ascertained from the text isn't actually 100% in line with what the text has told us. We are only directly told a few specific things. 

• Rhaegar abducted Lyanna whilst in the Riverlands nr-ish to Harrenhall.
• Rhaegar had half a dozen of his most loyal companions with him.
• Rhaegar Raped Lyanna
• previously he had crowned her QoL&B at a tourney and it caused controversy, her brother got angry as did her betrothed. 
• The realm saw this as offensive to his wife Elia of Dorne
• After finding out Rhaegar had Lyanna her eldest, hot headed brother; goes ape shit and calls him out for a duel.

 

Now we can add in the things we as readers; if we are observant, can glean from the text. which are not directly told to us as facts about the abduction.

• Elia could not have more children
• Rhaegar wanted a third child
• Rhaegar believed in TPTWP prophesey
• Lyanna did not wish to marry her betrothed Robert
• They ended up in a tower in Dorne here after known as the Tower of Joy.
• After roughly a year Ned fought the remaining KG left there, but Lyanna was dying, she died and asked him to keep an unspecified promise
• Barristan thinks Rhaegar loved HIS Lady Lyanna
• Rhaegar died with Lyanna's name on his lips
• Lyanna died clutching dead rose petals (and he had given her blue roses, her favourite flower, at the tourney) 
• Ned has no negative feelings towards Rhaegar, who supposedly raped his sister.

 

I've left out the clues about Jon, as we are purely thinking about their relationship and the motivations for spending a year together hidden away. Not proving she had a baby and that baby is him. 

Now the first list tells us that a prince abducted and raped a woman, whom he had previously shown interest in, at the expense of angering nobles and humiliating his wife. We can see this as being a terrible thing to do, and understand why war erupted as a result. The superficial reader does not think anything else is afoot. 

But when we add the second list, along side the skills of a careful reader, we can see that the story we have been given is suspicious, and also that both parties had motivation to elope rather than it being an abduction. The name of the place they ended up seems odd, a place of Joy? He is said by the man who was riding by his side in his last days to have loved HIS lady Lyanna. And she dies clutching what would seem most likely a gift of roses from him. And finally her brother who should hate Rhaegar with every fibre of his being, given he is said to have raped his sister bears absolutely no ill will towards the man, and if anything seems to be respectful of him. 

You speak of the fact everyone reads the story through the lens of their own life experience, and I agree. This is obvious. But I must point out that the author does not write from that view at all. He writes with the intent of telling his story, his way with no care or awareness of each individual readers take on things. So when attempting to ascertain what may or may not have happened between them it is important to put our own biases aside.  And consider what he is aiming for. 

We know he is a romantic, and that he enjoys romantic tales. 

We know he takes from history, from folk tales, from mythology etc. and when we look to see what might have gone on between Rhaegar & Lyanna I would argue that using these parameters are far more pertinent than using personal feelings about what love is. 

I'd say Romeo & Juliet is a good example. Have you seen the meme, which tells us that rather than one of literary histories greatest love stories it was just a three day relationship between a 13 year old and a 17 year old which caused 6 deaths. Now, I would hazard a guess were we to liken the tale of Rhaegar & Lyanna to Romeo & Juliet,  that GRRM would be going more for the traditional literary view of this story, rather than some patronising meme's take which basically is saying relationships between teenagers are not love, and these irresponsible children caused a huge world of trouble with their disobedient behaviour.

R&J is a romantic tragedy. R&L is too imo. 

My proposed scenario takes into account the clues in the text, and the likely possibilities to resolve the very legitimate problem with the love at first sight trope, that one does indeed need to get to know a person at least a bit, before you would be driven to break social conformity and risk retribution to be with that person. 

 

 

 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

12 minutes ago, MtnLion said:

That does not account for dying with a woman's name on his lips, which GRRM confirmed was "Lyanna".  I agree with you about Lyanna, though the female acquaintances that are familiar with the story tell me that she loved him.  The things they point to are the flowers/crown (even Ned makes sure that she is wearing the crown in the crypts, and says that she loved . . . flowers").  I would point also to the promises that she extracted from Ned, before allowing herself to go. 

A lot of the proof is really what is not said.  Ned does not despise Rhaegar, which I am certain he would, if Rhaegar had been a rapist or done anything against his sister's will.  Ned loved his sibling Lyanna, that is clear.  Further, if the Kingsguard at the tower had offended Ned in any way, he would not have held them in as high esteem as he does when describing them to Bran.  He would not have built individual cairns for them, as he did.  So much about how Ned does not react tells us that there was nothing to react to. 

Excellent point about the fact Ned had them carve the rose crown on her tomb, That is possibly the single most telling clue as to if she loved him, and Ned believes was loved by him. 

[Buried Treasure]

16 hours ago, TimJames said:

I think Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna. And I mean kidnapped in the literal sense, not "kidnapped" in the "please take me away" sense.

There's no way a daughter of a Lord Paramount would be traveling long distances without a bodyguard, and I can't see a bodyguard unit surrendering without a fight (even if ordered by their charge to). Since it is confirmed that Lyanna was taken en route, that means some of her bodyguards had to die. I don't see Lyanna being in love with Rhaegar enough to consider the death of her bodyguards a small price to pay, and I am sure that any infatuation Lyanna had for Rhaegar (which might not have extended beyond being impressed with musical ability) would have evaporated the moment he started killing her father's men.

Plus, I don't see someone raised in Stark Traditions as being selfish enough to choose someone she barley knows over her entire family (she doesn't know if her father or brothers would forgive her). Eddard never described her as being selfish or narcissistic or otherwise self-centered.

After seeing and evaluating all the evidence, my conclusion is that Lyanna was taken against her will.

Additionally I think this outcome is the preferable one, as it means Lyanna was a good person instead of a bad person. It's the same reason why this woman, who grew up being told her missing father abandoned her, discovered that he in fact died.

If Rhaegar had been just another lordling then a fight between Lyanna's bodyguard and the man that wanted to steal her away would seem a likely outcome. He was Crown Prince though; I have long thought that it would only require Rheagar baring an inch of steel to get Lyanna's bodyguard to back down. If they had fought him then even if they'd won they'd have lost -their own lives would be forfeit for harming a royal and their liege lords would have been accountable for their treason.

 

The type of scenario I imagine is Rhaegar wanting to talk, Lyanna having companions that disapproved of this,with the situation escalating to the point of bared steel (I think one account is that he took her 'at swordpoint') at which point everybody backed off to prevent bloodshed. Rhaegar and Lyanna absented themselves, with that leading to their months long disappearance, and Lyanna's companions sought higher authority to stop the Crown Prince. And that when they met Brandon they reported, truthfully but with wounded pride from having to back down from a fight, that Rhaegar took her at swordpoint which got him all riled up to charge to KL.

[FrostyDornishman]

55 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I agree with big portions of this, But I would add to bear in mind, that many hundreds of thousands of readers and members of this forum are simply not Americans. and don't care about American convention in terms of how we view 16 year olds. 

at 16 I for instance lived alone, supported myself, paid my bills, conducted relationships, worked, fell in love etc, at 19 I was also supporting my now husband whom I'd been with for 3 years and had found himself redundant. To me the idea that teenagers are all feckless idiots who are incapable of making life choices or understanding their own emotions is absurd. I've noticed American culture massively infantilises young adults.  And that often they forget the rest of the world is not identical in it's attitudes. 

Something I think a lot of forum users simply fail to grasp.

I agree that zandru got weirdly US-focused there, but they're essentially agreeing with you.  They said we shouldn't look at this situation through the lens of "American culture" (whatever the hell that means -- modern mass media?  traditional norms?) because real-life cultures are different, everyone everywhere is different, and reality is different from the fantasy realm of ASoIaF.

Also, personal anecdotes are kind of a moot point when everyone has a radically different life story.  The only thing they prove is that people can be in very different places at 16, which is, I dunno, self-explanatory?  I don't think anybody on this forum is gonna argue with you there.

Looking at the story on its own: I think it makes a lot more sense for the plot and what we know of Rhaegar's and Lyanna's personalities if they were in love.  If they weren't in love they probably didn't get married, and if they didn't get married Jon is just a Targ bastard and has no legitimate claim to the Iron Throne.  Isn't Robert the only one that's ever claimed Rhaegar raped Lyanna?  Isn't that just what he would want to believe?

[Dorian Martell]

3 hours ago, Rob Storm said:

I don't disagree but I have also been of the mind that if he needed a northerner to fulfill the "Ice" portion of the prophecy that he needed to claim his "wife" in the proper northern tradition of stealing her...Bael the Bard style  

I personally think R&L had a strong connection perhaps Love but that he conducted the "marriage" by northern tradition, by taking her.  

"Taking" a wife is a tradition beyond the wall. The Northern tradition is being married in front of a heart tree, like, say, on the Isle of Faces, which is on the God's Eye, near Harrenhal, where Lyanna "encountered" Rhaegar and his retinue who just happened to show up there  

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

1 hour ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

not directed at you at all, but my computer ALWAYS does this when I try to reply to a topic! 

frostyDornishman, yup totally grasped that they were mostly in alignment with my own view. Weird focus on American culture yes, uncommon no.

You would be surprised how often people argue that all 16 yr olds are in the same place and have the exact same grasp on life, emotions, maturity etc. Regardless of background, nationality, culture or life experience. I've tried using non personal examples to illustrate how myopic this is, say by suggesting they think of the difference between a 16 year old tribes person, who say has been herding yacks alone since they were 7, and has their own family, their own yurt etc. And a sheltered middlclass westerner who has never even been allowed to go to the corner shop alone. But alas they fail to grasp my point and just say something like, We're not talking about people who live in yurts we are talking about a fictional story. Without seeing that they are comparing said fictional characters to modern day teens of their own culture who are all some sort of steryotype.  It's all a bit frustrating and sometimes personal experience can convey things in a more relatable way. 

 

I completely agree with your last paragraph, narratively it would be redundant to have them not be in love and not to have married. Sure Jon could still save the world as a bastard. But going by all I know and understand of classic story telling, literary structure and the power of storytelling, I'd say it is unlikely. Plus you know the author added in that convenient polygamy clause. you don't hang polygamy on the wall if you don't plan on using it. 

 

[Dorian Martell]

16 hours ago, TimJames said:

I think Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna. And I mean kidnapped in the literal sense, not "kidnapped" in the "please take me away" sense.

There's no way a daughter of a Lord Paramount would be traveling long distances without a bodyguard, and I can't see a bodyguard unit surrendering without a fight (even if ordered by their charge to). Since it is confirmed that Lyanna was taken en route, that means some of her bodyguards had to die. I don't see Lyanna being in love with Rhaegar enough to consider the death of her bodyguards a small price to pay, and I am sure that any infatuation Lyanna had for Rhaegar (which might not have extended beyond being impressed with musical ability) would have evaporated the moment he started killing her father's men.

Plus, I don't see someone raised in Stark Traditions as being selfish enough to choose someone she barley knows over her entire family (she doesn't know if her father or brothers would forgive her). Eddard never described her as being selfish or narcissistic or otherwise self-centered.

After seeing and evaluating all the evidence, my conclusion is that Lyanna was taken against her will.

Additionally I think this outcome is the preferable one, as it means Lyanna was a good person instead of a bad person. It's the same reason why this woman, who grew up being told her missing father abandoned her, discovered that he in fact died.

Again, bold assumptions without anything to back them up. Where is it said that anyone in Lyanna's retinue died?  "If" Rhaegar did kill one of her guards, why was it never mentioned by King Bob? Why didn't he mention the killing of her guards in concert with her "kidnapping" to drive home how horrible the prince is? 
As for Stark tradition, "Wolf's Blood" is mentioned on a couple of occasions. She had it, like her older hotheaded brother Brandon who impulsively entered the Red keep and threatened the Crown Prince. 
So, again, the only "evidence" that Lyanna was taken against her will was from the mouth of King Bob, who may be right, but also could be speaking as a spurned fiance still bitter after all these years. Bob even tells Ned in the crypts that Rhaegar has Lyanna now. Deep inside Bob knew the truth  

14 hours ago, TimJames said:

Running away with a married man wouldn't make Lyanna a "normal person with flaws", it would make her a bad person. Period. Aristocrats have responsibilities, and marriage alliances can be the difference between life or death for both subjects and family members. If Lyanna ran away with Rhaegar, than she is directly responsible for unjust deaths of Brandon and Rickard and countless others. There is NO instance in which Rhaegar can cheat on his Martell Wife with an engaged Stark Girl without the outcome being very negative for everyone involved. If you know doing something might kill others (or are in a position where you have no excuse for not knowing), and you do that thing anyway then you are being criminally negligent. If your criminal negligence kills someone, then you are a bad person. End of story.

Which is worse, a father being killed in an accident or that same father running away with his secretary and spending the rest of his life pretending his wife and children don't exist? I'm not saying I'd wish suffering on anyone, I am simply saying that "it is better to suffer injustice than to commit it" (that is from Socrates, who was forced to drink poison for his beliefs). 

 

Lyanna was a wild, privileged teenager. As the Daughter of a Lord Paramount, she would get what she wanted, most of the time.  
That does not automatically make her a bad person. Yes she had responsibilities, but again, nobody is perfect. You were born in 1998, you know teenagers, how many 14 year olds do you know that are perfectly responsible adults?
"If" she ran away with Rhaegar and had his baby out of wedlock, that is the extent of her "crimes,"  which isn't even criminal, just dishonorable. 
She isn't "Directly" responsible for anyone's death either. Do a reread of the series. You seem to have missed that It was her wild older brother Brandon that stormed into the red keep and threatened the crown prince. the "MAD" King (emphasis on mad) then overacted and killed the Lord Paramount of the north in a brutal and sadistic way, and killed his heir in an equally cruel and sadistic way. He then demanded the heads of the next in line to rule the north and the Lord paramount of the Stormlands. Lyanna had no part in any of their deaths. 
You are correct in that there is no way in which the crown prince can cheat on his wife with a woman engaged to a lord paramount's daughter without negative consequences. But again, death and war does not have to be one of those consequences. As you stated earlier, Aristocrats have responsibilities. They also have systems in place where things like land deeds, marriages and bags of gold and silver are exchanged instead of fighting. The Mad King is the player who threw that system out of the window, not Lyanna or the Prince. They had no idea that the king  would kill two lord paramounts and demand the deaths of two others. That is not criminal negligence from the son or the daughter, that is the deed of a mentally ill psychopath father with a poor grip on reality.

Also, the anecdote about  a dad being killed or running away has nothing to do with this discussion. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

So nice to read such a sensible post Doran Martell. I completely agree. 

[MtnLion]

1 hour ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

you don't hang polygamy on the wall if you don't plan on using it. 

Chekhov's Polygamy.  (GRRM's answer re:Polygamy implies that there are other cases of polygamy in the Targaryen line, but we haven't read them yet, and indeed he may not have written them yet, but that he intends to.) 

[OuttaOldtown]

3 hours ago, MtnLion said:

That does not account for dying with a woman's name on his lips, which GRRM confirmed was "Lyanna".  I agree with you about Lyanna, though the female acquaintances that are familiar with the story tell me that she loved him.  The things they point to are the flowers/crown (even Ned makes sure that she is wearing the crown in the crypts, and says that she loved . . . flowers").  I would point also to the promises that she extracted from Ned, before allowing herself to go. 

A lot of the proof is really what is not said.  Ned does not despise Rhaegar, which I am certain he would, if Rhaegar had been a rapist or done anything against his sister's will.  Ned loved his sibling Lyanna, that is clear.  Further, if the Kingsguard at the tower had offended Ned in any way, he would not have held them in as high esteem as he does when describing them to Bran.  He would not have built individual cairns for them, as he did.  So much about how Ned does not react tells us that there was nothing to react to. 

That doesn't convince me that it was about love, whether they grew to love each other is another topic. The reason for the crown of winter roses may have a great deal more significance than Ned believing that she loved him. The winter roses seem to represent something deeper in relation to her & the Starks in general.. 

[MtnLion]

11 minutes ago, OuttaOldtown said:

That doesn't convince me that it was about love, whether they grew to love each other is another topic. The reason for the crown of winter roses may have a great deal more significance than Ned believing that she loved him. The winter roses seem to represent something deeper in relation to her & the Starks in general.. 

The abduction may have been a favor to Lyanna to help her break the betrothal.  The question is, did they love each other, and thus the marriage have a good foundation?  It is quite obvious to me that they did love each other, and that it was likely that they married.  The comport of the Kingsguard at the tower of joy confirms that they were married, and that Jon was the next heir to the Iron Throne.  (See the link in my signature: at the tower of joy.)  The blue (winter) rose growing from a chink in a wall of ice is an undeniable link between Jon and Lyanna and Rhaegar.  Any other attempt to explain it falls flat.  A general dismissal is a poor argument. 

[OuttaOldtown]

14 minutes ago, MtnLion said:

The abduction may have been a favor to Lyanna to help her break the betrothal.  The question is, did they love each other, and thus the marriage have a good foundation?  It is quite obvious to me that they did love each other, and that it was likely that they married.  The comport of the Kingsguard at the tower of joy confirms that they were married, and that Jon was the next heir to the Iron Throne.  (See the link in my signature: at the tower of joy.)  The blue (winter) rose growing from a chink in a wall of ice is an undeniable link between Jon and Lyanna and Rhaegar.  Any other attempt to explain it falls flat.  A general dismissal is a poor argument. 

I don't think anything about this topic can be considered obvious, I'm not saying I disagree with your opinion, in fact I would not be surprised to learn that love a developed. I would be shocked to learn it was all about love..

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

When people say that they think they were in love, that does not necessarily equate with that person thinking it was All about love. Rhaegar's desire to fulfil the prophesy has to come into it, as does Lyanna's desire to escape her proposed marriage to Robert. Neither acted purely out of love. To attempt to boil the entire thing down to two people in love is over simplifying the thing. But equally the fact they both had outside motivators does not mean that they didn't love each other too. As in real life; many things will have contributed to what happened. 

When people say they think they were in love, they are not saying that it was All about love. 

For me the facts of the text point to love, the authors personality and preferences, and the style of writing all point to a love affair. This is a story which is dripping in romance, but which equally focuses on the conflict humanity faces between the heart and the head. Jon & Ygritte is a great example of how he does this. Duty V's Desire. Seeing the bigger picture and the greater god, V's following societal norms, breaking vows to find personal happiness, and breaking them in-order to save humanity. These are all themes within their relationship and I would say will be mirrored in Rhaegar & Lyanna as well. GRRM does that a lot. writes the story in a very circular manor, with themes repeating and a story which eats it own tail so to speak. 

[Ygrain]

Ned draws a comparison between Robert and Rhaegar in favour of Rhaegar, Rhaegar dies with Lyanna's name on his lips, Lyanna is repeatedly depicted with the crown of the blue roses that she received from Rhaegar and dies holding dried roses (as in, remembrance) in her hand. Barristan's musing that "Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna and thousands died for it" is no reveal but merely spelling out the obvious.

Now, of course, this reveals nothing about how or when the love started or whether it would have lasted, but love there was, or else the above-mentioned would make zero sense to write.

[The Exiled Septa]

First of all i want to say that the prospect of Rhaegar and Lyanna failing in  love with each other at first sight.......(although very romantic it doesn't seem very logical to me either. Lyanna was known for her strong and spirited character AND It seems very odd for a girl like her  to suddenly fall in love with a stranger( because lets be honest  there couldn't be many opportunities for Lyanna and Rhaegar to meet alone and come close with each other since they were at a tourney)and furthermore to run away with this  married man while completely ignoring the consequences of her actions to those she loves.On the other hand Rhaegar didn't seem like a man who would cause a war with so many deaths and distractions  just so he can be  with a woman even if he loved her.So i believe that Rhaegar somehow realised that Lyanna was the one who could give birth to the prince that was promised and somehow convinced her of that theory. For me Its the only logical explanation that could make those two people act so recklessly and out of character.And to answer to your real question no i don't think that Rhaegar and Lyanna run off together because they were in love but i strongly believe that in the duration of their staying together they eventually and unintentionally fell in love within the each other.That would explain why Rhaegar named the tower ->tower of Joy and why Lyanna died in a bed full of her favorite flowers and lets not forget the fact that Rhaegar whispered a woman's name just before he died   but since we are not sure what was the woman's name -it could be Elias for all that we know-its safe to say that this is not a trustworthy evidence Still though  even with the previous 1 and 2 facts we can safely say that Rhaegar acted as a man who loved his .....lover????second wife??(that's another matter for discussion ) and tried to make her happy.So in the end yes i think those two fell in love.

Sorry for the mistakes .....(English its not my mother tongue) 

[Aeggon]

On 5/2/2016 at 7:28 PM, EvanSol919 said:

So a bunch of people are convinced that the dragon prince and the wolf maiden had this great lovd affair but I'm not sold.

Let's look at some facts - I believe that Lyanna was our mysterious knight that Rhaegar found but there's no indication that the two spent any personal time together between then and when Lyanna was crowned Queen of Love and Beauty. Cut to roughly a year later when Lyanna was "kidnapped". First she must have already been heading south since she ended up in Dorne before Brandon rode to Kings Landing from Riverrun. My guess she was supposed to be going to Storms End although Riverrun and the Vale are other choices. Now let's keep in mind the timeline - Lyanna was 16 when she died, 15 when the war began and 14 at the tourney of Harrenhall. So it seems possible that she was infatuated with Rhaegar and might have turned to him to escape her unhappy engagement. Maybe during that year she fell in love but it wasn't that way at first. 

Now switching to the last dragon - most remember Rhaegar as a man who would have been a great king but I see something else - an obsession with the Prince that was Promised prophecy. From the House of the Undying vision, he was already looking to have another child, his third head, after Elia was advised not to get pregnant again. But why Lyanna? Well he already had a Rhaeyns and an Aegon so he needed a Visenya and who better to be the mother of the legendary warior woman than a girl who would secretly disguise herself as a knight? Also it would unite the blood of the dragon with the blood of the first men. Now Rhaegar would have had to have known that seemingly abducting the daughter of one great lord and the fiancee of another would cause a lot of problems but his obsession with the prophecy came first and it cost thousands their lives. Again, maybe he came to love he but that wasn't his original intent. Perhaps he didn't fully escape the Targaryen madness after all...

Any thoughts? 

So let's say they weren't in love.. So what? Was she actually abducted and raped? Why did she make ned promise to protect jon and keep him a secret? Who would want to protect the child of someone who abducted and raped her? I find it hard to believe a wild she wolf like lyanna would come to love her raper and abducter over time. I'm sure Lyannas lineage did play some part in her and Rhaegar going off together but whos to say that means they didn't love eachother? You're almost making it sound like it has to be one or the other. They could have been in love AND he could have chosen her based on her lineage.

And let's assume he did put his obsession with the prophecy first resulting in the cost of thousands of lives.. how is that madness? He was also risking his own life, along with the lives of his family. If Jon is the prince that was promised, Rhaegar is a savior.

[Damon_Tor]

On 5/2/2016 at 7:47 PM, Nissa said:

This is a really big stretch but following your thoughts I wonder if that was the case than if Rhaegar choose Lyanna for her lineage as well. Something in the prophecy could have led him to think he needed Stark blood to fulfill the prophecy.

Well Targaryens are genetically predisposed toward controlling dragons. Starks are genetically predisposed toward being controlled by CotF. It's possible a child of both lines would have served as a "bridge" allowing the CotF more direct control over the dragons.