Rhaegar and Lyanna weren't in love

[Ser Walter of AShwood]

Just now, Tralalala said:

Your opinion,not mine,btw Saddam was 1000 times better than what amerika's jackboot diplomacy left, i don't know any godwin...

And every person is perfectly unbiased about everyone around them? As i said feel free to disagree,but to me Tywin is a good parent.

I agree on your comment about the US jackboot diplomacy, but he still killed a lot of Kurds and was a dictator in the way we haven't seen in quite a while. About Godwin, please read here.

Every character trait of Tywin shows that he has to be the top dog. Killing the Castameres and the Reynes the way he did. Gangraping Tysha, his sacking of Kingslanding, the way he utilises Gregor and Vargo Hoat, his part in the Red Wedding. He wants to be strong, powerful and masculine. He absolutely despises Tyrion and does nothing to try and hide this. In stead, he frequently tells him this.

If that isn't mental abuse, then I don't know what is. The gang rape is not only mental, but also physical abuse. Not only of Tysha, but also of Tyrion. And you can say we are allowed to disagree, but this is not the case. Quite frankly my good ser, you are dead wrong!

1 minute ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Actually I believe that he just wanted for Jaime to be the way he wanted to be.

He wanted Jaime to be exactly as himself. That's why he was so angry when Aerys added Jaime to the Kingsguard. He lost his golden boy, basically his legacy.

7 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Maybe just reread the books?  In order to find out what is in them and what isn't.

Yeah, I just started my 4th (or maybe 5th) reread of the books.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

2 minutes ago, Ser Walter of AShwood said:

And you can say we are allowed to disagree, but this is not the case. Quite frankly my good ser, you are dead wrong!

2 minutes ago, Ser Walter of AShwood said:

He wanted Jaime to be exactly as himself. That's why he was so angry when Aerys added Jaime to the Kingsguard. He lost his golden boy, basically his legacy.

That is my point. It wasn't that he couldn't see Jaime the way he was. It was that he wanted Jaime to become Tywin 2.0. He basically was a bad father for all of his children but Tyrion had suffered more than his siblings.

7 minutes ago, Ser Walter of AShwood said:

Yeah, I just started my 4th (or maybe 5th) reread of the books.

That is a much better thing than fan fictions.

[Hodor the Articulate]

On 4/05/2016 at 8:57 PM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I have a real problem with the patronising, sanctimonious, and patriarchal insistence that Love is only one particular thing and that any form of relationship which does not fit into that very small mould of what the - sanctioned as suitable idea; of what love is. Absolutely can not be love. 

I agree. People on this forum are so quick to dismiss the relationships of the younger characters as lust or infatuation. I get the impression that this is people projecting themselves onto characters rather than seeing what the writing is telling us. Just because you, yourself have not experienced love at first sight or young love, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. There actually are studies that show teenagers can experience love in the exact same way adults do, neurologically at least.

Personally, with the little information we have, I don't see anything but a subverted love story making sense for Rhaegar and Lyanna at this point. All the theories that have the characters mechanically pursue a relationship for the prophecy or as a means to escape betrothal, etc just sounds like shit writing to me, frankly. In all of them, the characters are just moving pieces that exist only to serve the plot, probably because the theories were created around various plots. There's no thematic depth or characterisation, and no taking account of natural human emotions and motivations. That doesn't seem like GRRM's MO.

[Ygrain]

8 hours ago, Tralalala said:

Lying to your child to make him do something isn't a good action,but not something you wont live past.

Well, are you under an impression that Tyrion ever lived past things that Tywin made him do?

8 hours ago, Tralalala said:

So every material need is only food? What about clothing,shelter,prestige,money? I can and will tell it,why shouldn't it? They have suffered not me i can talk about it as freely as everyone talks about everything.

Complete and utter bullshit, arrogant and disregarding people's suffering on top of that. Verbal and emotional abuse can actually be worse than physical, often damaging people for life. You may believe whatever you will, but that doesn't give you the right to make light of what others have been through.

 

8 hours ago, Ser Walter of AShwood said:

Tywin hasn't been a good parent, to none of his children. He neglected Cercei because she was a woman, he adored Jaime, but ignored the fact that Jaime simply acts without thinking whatsoever, and simply rejects Tyrion for being a dwarf.

There is this passage in Cersei's PoV, about Tywin treating them differently: 

Though he was ten years her junior, he wanted her; Cersei could see it in the way he looked at her. Men had been looking at her that way since her breasts began to bud. Because I was so beautiful, they said, but Jaime was beautiful as well, and they never looked at him that
way. When she was small she would sometimes don her brother’s clothing as a lark. She was always startled by how differently men treated
her when they thought that she was Jaime. Even Lord Tywin himself . .

I don't know, is she talking merely about gender inequality, or are there some darker undertones present?

[Tralalala]

9 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

I am sorry but abuse isn't something objective and is not up for personal opinion. Now if you wish to believe that abuse is ok because Tywin didn't let him die but make his life miserable and forced him to rape someone with the excuse “it was just a lesson” that’s ok. But please go to someone who had suffered from parents like that and tell them what you believe and then please tell me what they had told you.

Wrong it is,people interpret things differently what you consider abuse isn't considered abuse by others and the opposite.There was a guy i used to know,his wife would make scandals beat him and shout as if he tried to kill her,so anyways i asked him what kind of a man you were to stand for such and guess what? He stared dumbly and said things are complicated havent spoken in years,but it's still a form of abuse according to you.

46 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Well, are you under an impression that Tyrion ever lived past things that Tywin made him do?

Complete and utter bullshit, arrogant and disregarding people's suffering on top of that. Verbal and emotional abuse can actually be worse than physical, often damaging people for life. You may believe whatever you will, but that doesn't give you the right to make light of what others have been through.

He didn't and that's on him,nobody else is fault and to be precise i am not talking about the gangrape of Tysha,i am talking about Tyrion getting on with his life after that.

9 hours ago, Ser Walter of AShwood said:

I agree on your comment about the US jackboot diplomacy, but he still killed a lot of Kurds and was a dictator in the way we haven't seen in quite a while. About Godwin, please read here.

Every character trait of Tywin shows that he has to be the top dog. Killing the Castameres and the Reynes the way he did. Gangraping Tysha, his sacking of Kingslanding, the way he utilises Gregor and Vargo Hoat, his part in the Red Wedding. He wants to be strong, powerful and masculine. He absolutely despises Tyrion and does nothing to try and hide this. In stead, he frequently tells him this.

If that isn't mental abuse, then I don't know what is. The gang rape is not only mental, but also physical abuse. Not only of Tysha, but also of Tyrion. And you can say we are allowed to disagree, but this is not the case. Quite frankly my good ser, you are dead wrong!

Well that's what war is war,civilians always are the main target and victim of it,and specifically in westeros you think no one else rapes and pillages,i can't find fault with Tywin for his tactics/way of making war.

As for the mental abuse i agree it's abuse but it cannot be compared with abuse of the body and isnt something that a strong personality cannot get past,as in getting beaten frequently or anything else nastier(raped,burned,mocked) you can think of is in any way comparable to Tywin basically being negative towards Tyrion and contantly disliking him,people dont always get along familly or no family. While tysha could be considered part of the mental abuse,it was one time deal,many years ago to a girl he knew for? One or three months(weeks) tops,it isn't an event which you can't live past or must cry wolf about. 

It was physical only for tysha not tyrion i don't remember reading about him getting raped,tyrion's abuse is basically his father killing/ordering the rape of his girlfriend/wife that he knew for one-three months(read weeks) max. The only mental aspect is the breaking of his "true" love and anger and disappointment for getting lied to,perhaps guilt for participating in what his father ordered which is just bullshit to me,on one hand he feels bad about it on the other he could perform whatever he performed just fine...

[Ygrain]

6 hours ago, Tralalala said:

isnt something that a strong personality cannot get past

Ah, I see. Strong people get past it, so it's no deal, and weaker ones, well, their own fault being weak?

This acquaintance of yours is in an abusive relationship, him not doing something about it doesn't mean he is okay with it. You seem to have no idea about the mental condition of people subject to spouse abuse, being manipulated into thinking that they somehow deserve it and generally suffering from low self-confidence instilled or enhanced by the abuser. 

 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

16 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

I agree. People on this forum are so quick to dismiss the relationships of the younger characters as lust or infatuation. I get the impression that this is people projecting themselves onto characters rather than seeing what the writing is telling us. Just because you, yourself have not experienced love at first sight or young love, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. There actually are studies that show teenagers can experience love in the exact same way adults do, neurologically at least.

Personally, with the little information we have, I don't see anything but a subverted love story making sense for Rhaegar and Lyanna at this point. All the theories that have the characters mechanically pursue a relationship for the prophecy or as a means to escape betrothal, etc just sounds like shit writing to me, frankly. In all of them, the characters are just moving pieces that exist only to serve the plot, probably because the theories were created around various plots. There's no thematic depth or characterisation, and no taking account of natural human emotions and motivations. That doesn't seem like GRRM's MO.

 

Yes!  It isn't often people agree with me on this point. So thank you. Love is not a neat pc emotion which gets applied only when certain criteria are met.  And yes teenagers can fall in love, the chemical process is the same if you are 15 or 52.  I've been with my husband since I was 17. I know you can fall in love young. No not everyone who does fall in love, stays in love long term, but again that is as true at 52 as it is at 15.  

And I agree, GRRM writes about messy, emotional people with feelings he doesn't write about cardboard characters who just move around facilitating a plot. 

[Tralalala]

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Ah, I see. Strong people get past it, so it's no deal, and weaker ones, well, their own fault being weak?

In essence yes and i said personality and you must tell them this gently/diplomatically otherwise if you insult them they'll never get or want any advice and wont share anything with you,besides sadly for them or anyone else with problems the world wont stop spinning just because one person has problems,at the end of the day you can only rely on yourself and no one else,why are people constantly crying for tyrion the unwanted child as if he's constantly abused when he isn't? One bird(tysha) does not make spring.

I have an idea about it,i just can't understand how someone stands for it,what are they hoping to achieve by doing nothing?

To be specific i'm talking about emotional/mental abuse as in those case you are physically unrestrained,as for my acquaintance i just consider the whole thing as weird,first he was the abuser when she was a girlfriend he would beat her up,tare up her money when she gets her wage,force her to wash his feet or some weird shit,and she didn't even complained about it i know from his own bragging about it as if he's won the olympics,he had been to prison she could've had him back inside for atleast 5-6 years but she just didn't want to complain she's had plenty of oppotunities to get away,and years later he is the one abused by her and he just like her dosen't do anything about it...

[maudisdottir]

I can't believe what I'm reading in this thread. Abuse has a legal definition; it's not something you can agree or disagree on. Mental, emotional and physical abuse are all considered domestic violence, and any child subjected to any of those (or even a witness to it) would be at risk.

He loved Jaime so much because Jaime was the only one who was kind to him. Tyrion was also physically abused as a baby by Cersei when she twisted his tiny peen, and that may not have been the only occasion. I can't imagine how horrible it would be to grow up with a father who didn't hide the fact that he held you responsible for your mother's death and wished it had been you who'd died, and a sister who thought you were a monster to be tormented for fun.

A child like that today, with no mother, a disability and a sibling suspected of inflicting cruelty on it, would have case workers and healthcare professionals looking out for its welfare, precisely because it would be at risk of abuse.

And all of that's without the Tysha gang-rape. To be so dismissive of Tywin's actions as a parent (to all of his children) is appalling, frankly.

I do agree though that at some point Tyrion needs to stop wallowing in misery and alcohol and take some responsibility for his own happiness. But that doesn't negate any of the bad shit that happened to him growing up. Just because Tywin didn't leave him out to die, and Tyrion lived in a castle and not a hovel, also doesn't negate what happened to him.

Tywin was an arsehole.

eta Not sure why I'm ranting about Tywin in an R+L thread. Sorry.

[Ser Walter of AShwood]

2 minutes ago, maudisdottir said:

I do agree though that at some point Tyrion needs to stop wallowing in misery and alcohol and take some responsibility for his own happiness. But that doesn't negate any of the bad shit that happened to him growing up. Just because Tywin didn't leave him out to die, and Tyrion lived in a castle and not a hovel, also doesn't negate what happened to him.

Well, to be honest, he only really started wallowing in misery after he killed Shae and his father. Up until then, he wasn't the cheeriest of the bunch, but he didn't do that bad. Yes, he's an alcoholic, yes he's whoring around (I think this basically is a Tysha gang rape result). But he does try to make the most of it. He is using his 'imp-status' as a shield and embraces it. He realises that he will never be a strong knight, or powerful lord, so he uses his brain. He reads, learns, studies and this makes him a smarter player overall.
Of course he remembers the way his father and sister treated him as a child (or even now), but he is kind of at peace with it. In stead of wallowing, he is trying to gain his fathers respect (which he partly gets when he is appointed temp Hand of the King), but he will never match up to Tywins expectations. For Cercei, he is simply outsmarting her on almost every level and he knows it.

9 minutes ago, maudisdottir said:

Tywin was an arsehole.

Yup, no doubt about it. Like I've said before, he's a sadistic, egocentric, powertripping bully.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

15 hours ago, Tralalala said:

Wrong it is,people interpret things differently what you consider abuse isn't considered abuse by others and the opposite.There was a guy i used to know,his wife would make scandals beat him and shout as if he tried to kill her,so anyways i asked him what kind of a man you were to stand for such and guess what? He stared dumbly and said things are complicated havent spoken in years,but it's still a form of abuse according to you.

1 hour ago, maudisdottir said:

I can't believe what I'm reading in this thread. Abuse has a legal definition; it's not something you can agree or disagree on. Mental, emotional and physical abuse are all considered domestic violence, and any child subjected to any of those (or even a witness to it) would be at risk. [snip]

This. Excelent post maudisdottir! 

[Tralalala]

Were we discussing law or everyone's different interpretation of events? Some people never lay a hand on their child others considere regular beating normal discipline,others never aknowledge their children more then a few words at a time(i guess that emotional abuse?) you decide for yourself what is abuse and isn't,also the "victim" of said abuse can decide wheter it was abuse or not as for the law it tries to decide for everyone and if talking about what is what according only to the law,then what Tywin did is perfectly legal in westeros.. 

Can't understand why bring up the law of your country and apply it to the whole world and even try to interpret things from the books with it...

[Angel Eyes]

You know, I think that may be one of the questions GRRM might leave unanswered: Why Rhaegar kidnapped or eloped with (depending on what you believe) Lyanna.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

On ‎5‎/‎3‎/‎2016 at 8:55 PM, Tianzi said:

It's been established that Eddard was quite different than at least two of his siblings, being Lyanna and Brandon. And Brandon, at least, was running around taking his father's bannermen's daughters' virginities, something I really can't imagine Ned doing.

Also I think that running off with a married man against her family wishes IN THIS SERIES places her as 'not purity incarnate', not 'a bad person', especially given the scenario where she was a teenage girl blinded by love. Letting her bodyguards be killed - sure, A Bad Thing, but it's possible she tricked them, the list of people sneaking away in some sort of mess is long. And I seriously don't see how being an irresponsible teenager with a selfish streak is worse scenario than being an abduction and rape victim. I would sure wish on her the former one.

 

Poor Brandon , he did one known woman and now he is doing them all .

[Jon's Queen Consort]

On 4/5/2016 at 3:55 AM, Tianzi said:

And Brandon, at least, was running around taking his father's bannermen's daughters' virginities

From all we know it was one woman and she was willing to have sex with him. How is that Brandon's fault?

[maudisdottir]

Quote

Brandon was never shy about taking what he wanted.

 

Quote

I think Brandon liked the sight as well. A bloody sword is a beautiful thing, yes.

I believe it was Brandon who hooked up with Ashara Dayne, not Ned, so yes I would say Brandon liked the ladies.

[The She-Wolf25]

On 5/4/2016 at 4:57 AM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

But nothing happens right away. Then say they correspond over the intervening period and find that they have a LOT of common ground. They form a relationship via letters.  And still they each recall how they liked the others eyes, smile, smell, the sound of their laughter. Or the beautiful songs that the other sang. Absence makes the heart grow fonder. And Lyanna comes to realise she truly can not marry Robert.  And simultaneously Rhaegar gets news Elia will never be able to bring him another child.  Each mourns their fate, a loveless unhappy marriage, the failure to fulfil the prophesy.

I believe this is what happened.  After the Tourney of Harrenhal they started a correspondence and Lyanna felt that she could confide in Rhaegar.  She told about her fears of marriage and how unsure she was of Robert as a husband.  Rhaegar could say that he know how she felt since he also had marry someone he didn't choose and while Elia is a good woman, there is no passion in their marriage, no real emotion.  As the big day gets closer and closer Lyanna starts panicking.  Rhaegar gets that bad news that Elia can't have anymore children.

I think that maybe Lyanna and Rhaegar believed they were in love, but ultimately viewed the other as a way of getting what they wanted.  I don't think that either one of them could have predicted what would happen next.

[maudisdottir]

Didn't George refer to Rhaegar indirectly as "a prince in love" or something similar? It was a quote about the series of events leading to Robert's Rebellion, and "a prince in love" was one of the reasons George gave.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

9 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

I would say Brandon liked the ladies.

I don't think that anyone disagree with Brandon being a ladies man but the fact that he was 

On 4/5/2016 at 3:55 AM, Tianzi said:

was running around taking his father's bannermen's daughters' virginities

seems to be wrong since we know that the women were willing to have sex with him, maybe hoping that they will be the next Lady of Winterfell, and he wasn't made them.

[Ygrain]

4 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

Didn't George refer to Rhaegar indirectly as "a prince in love" or something similar? It was a quote about the series of events leading to Robert's Rebellion, and "a prince in love" was one of the reasons George gave.

Look no further than my sig :-)