Unearned Moments

[Rubicante]

I was really disappointed with last night's episode, specifically with Jon's resurrection.

Something about the scene just seemed really flat and cheesy to me.  The resurrection was too easy, and the events leading up to it were too neat, tidy and predictable.  For instance, of course the wildlings show up at the last possible instant to save Davos and crew (wouldn't there at least be some Night's Watch men keeping an eye south of the castle to warn them, especially considering how they know the wildlings have now settled south and don't trust them?).  And where does Davos suddenly come up with the idea to ask Mel to resurrect Jon?  He was totally against the use of magic in Stannis' campaign, yet now he is suddenly okay with it?  Furthermore, why hasn't he had a single conservation with Mel regarding what happened to Stannis and Shireen? 

Anyhow, I just feel like so many big events are being rushed, and then when the big moment comes it just doesn't feel earned too me.  I'm trying to decide if I am being unrealistic as a viewer based on how the show has a limited budget and time to move the story along.  However, I feel like the events leading up to the resurrection could have been stretched out longer, and the cost of the resurrection should have been higher (I'll eat my words on this if Jon is drastically different next week). 

It seems like the reintroduction of the Ironborn seems like a complete waste of time now for the show, considering how Dany was established to have a fleet (which by the way, how the hell does not a single Unsullied see who burned the fleet?  My only explanation is that Ramsay sent his 20 Good Men to Mereen to do this).  If time is a problem for the show, why do this story line now?

What are your thoughts? 

[ErasmusF]

I think for a book reader it seemed kind of flat. For people who aren't really into the R+L = J drama, maybe not so. It's unfortunate they feel like it should be a one hour show every week. It's HBO. They can do whatever they want. Make it an hour and 20 minutes. Whatever. 

Also agree about the unexplained fleet burning. Makes no sense. The Sons of the Harpy would not do that, I think they want Dany gone ASAP. Just like the Dorne story line made no sense. It seems like the showrunners want to introduce some ideas but don't want to get into WHY they are interesting to the book readers. So the Dorne storylines become dull pointless. Same with Mereen. Now we will have the IronBorn coming Deus Ex Machina to shuttle Dany to Westeros. 

[Sand11751]

While I'm happy the resurrection happened in episode 2, I'll see it did feel anticlimatic. The fact that Mel's necklace didn't glow as it often has when she's using a spell threw me off and I initially assumed she'd failed. I agree that Davos is strangely invested in Jon's life after death and equally odd is how he's gone without mentioning Shireen or suddenly turned to being polite to Melisandre without threats from Stannis. Glad the Ironborn are back, too; don't know how many show-only watchers even remember them.

I appreciate the showrunners' plight, while sometimes having little sympathy at times for their choices. They eliminated certain scenes to give us sexposition or inexplicably changed things to depict rapes / murders that aren't in the source. They have a lot of material to adapt and while I think it's more than fair to question their drection, I also recognize how hard it is to convey certain subplots or internal decision-making on the screen. I've just had to think of the show and book as two separate entities. It's either that or stop watching.

[Tadco26]

The show wants to hit key events from the books, but they are willing to completely change the circumstances and events that lead to those key events.  As a result many of the key events lose their impact or don't even make sense in the context of the changes they have made. 

[Bran the Shipper]

Too many of the events of this episode felt unearned.  Arya passing her test, Tyrion freeing the dragons, and Jon's resurrection all felt like they needed to happen but the show writers had no idea how to make them happen believably so they just forced it.  Just like how I have no idea why Theon would choose to abandon Sansa to couple of people they barely know so he can return home, but there is likely something he has to do there so it doesn't matter whether it makes sense or not.  You would think his experience with Ramsay would make him concerned that Brienne's rescue is some sort of trap, but no he is perfectly fine abandoning Sansa even though he just admitted that he would die to keep her safe.

Plus I don't see Tywin, sorry I mean Roose, dropping his guard around Ramsay.  Roose doesn't care if Ramsay kills his newborns but he'd never allow Ramsay to kill him so easily.  But the show wants Ramsay to be the big bad this season so Roose has got to go.

[The Northern Scholar]

I definitely agree. A lot of things feel unearned. As I said in a different thread, I feel like the show is just trying to move through the "stations of canon" in an effort to get to the stuff they want to make a big deal of, like the battles.

As for Jon's resurrection, it fell super flat to me because I was so preoccupied trying to figure out Davos' characterization that I couldn't really pay attention.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Thematically, Jon and Beric should not be resurrected the same way. Jon is far more important than Beric; his resurrection should be far more dramatic. It also ties Jon solely to Fire, in opposition to Ice. Jon is supposed to be both Ice and Fire, the fulcrum between the two.

I don't think D&D give a rat's butt about most of the thematic fantasy elements of the story. They set up type of resurrection, and that's good enough for them. Just like the way they changed the basic nature of the dragons just for the convenience of their altered plotline.

[TepidHands]

5 hours ago, Sand11751 said:

While I'm happy the resurrection happened in episode 2, I'll see it did feel anticlimatic. The fact that Mel's necklace didn't glow as it often has when she's using a spell threw me off and I initially assumed she'd failed. I agree that Davos is strangely invested in Jon's life after death and equally odd is how he's gone without mentioning Shireen or suddenly turned to being polite to Melisandre without threats from Stannis. Glad the Ironborn are back, too; don't know how many show-only watchers even remember them.

I appreciate the showrunners' plight, while sometimes having little sympathy at times for their choices. They eliminated certain scenes to give us sexposition or inexplicably changed things to depict rapes / murders that aren't in the source. They have a lot of material to adapt and while I think it's more than fair to question their drection, I also recognize how hard it is to convey certain subplots or internal decision-making on the screen. I've just had to think of the show and book as two separate entities. It's either that or stop watching.

I also felt the reintroduction of the Iron Islands and introduction of Euron was underwhelming.

And your avatar is my head canon Euron. The show's looks too young.

[The Arthur Smith]

30 minutes ago, TepidHands said:

And your avatar is my head canon Euron. The show's looks too young.

But in the book, Euron was said to look too young for his age (33 years old) and hasn't change much since his banishment. So the show's appearance isn't that off from the canon.

[Lot Seven]

Yeah, absolutely agree with the "big moments" feeling rushed & unearned! Just couldn't really define what bothered me til reading this thread... The first episode felt completely rushed to me, and although the second was less rushed it still seems like they're just hitting plot points... Have read the books for the first time while waiting for se06, wondering whether that's why this is now annoying me?? 

Regarding Euron - the actor playing him is really good so am willing to forgive & forget that he looks nothing like I imagined him.. Although I do think 33 fits with his current looks?

[Morky_Pep]

I agree OP whole heartedly. They stopped trying to make a good television show, and now they are just trying to finish it as fast as possible without caring for nuance or making the scenes powerful. Thing's just happen and we don't get to see why or how they happen. So much is left for us as viewers to just guess as to the motivation. Why is Davos doing what he is doing ? How does cutting someone's hair resurrect them ? Why is Ellaria avenging Oberyn by murdering his brother and nephew ? I'm sure if we used our imaginations we could eventually come up with a logical answer, but we don't get that answer from the show.. 

[Anne Hill Crosby]

Hmm, am I the only one thinking that Mel's actions did not in fact resurrect Jon? That something else did, and Ghost caught wind of it in the room? Oh well, I am probably wrong.

[ummester]

I agree with you Anne Hill Crosby, I don't think Mel resurrected Jon. At most she gave life back to his corpse, enabling his conscience to return to it from Ghost.

As for things not being earned - the biggest issue I see is Davos suddenly becoming an ardent Jon supporter. What, when, how, why did this happen?

The wilding scene was earned because they sent Ed off last ep and Wun Wun would have bashed his way in regardless of any opposition.

Also, don't forget that Jon won the LC position by a single, expired maester vote, so the Nights Watch are clearly split down the middle over the way forward, which means the greater majority probably can't really see the difference between Thorne and Jon. There is a core of Thorne supporters, a core of Jon supporters and a whole bunch of disillusioned Nights Watchmen, way I see it. The disillusioned ones wont be putting themselves on the line for either cause.

As for big moments being rushed - it's not moving fast enough for me. There is nothing wrong with methodical and complicated build up - but past the mid way point I firmly believe a story should heat up towards the conclusion.

Dorne and Episode 1 were kind of crap - this ep seemed back on some kind of track. Let's see if it lasts.

 

[The Dames do Moan]

31 minutes ago, ummester said:

I agree with you Anne Hill Crosby, I don't think Mel resurrected Jon. At most she gave life back to his corpse, enabling his conscience to return to it from Ghost.

Also, don't forget that Jon won the LC position by a single, expired maester vote, so the Nights Watch are clearly split down the middle over the way forward, which means the greater majority probably can't really see the difference between Thorne and Jon. There is a core of Thorne supporters, a core of Jon supporters and a whole bunch of disillusioned Nights Watchmen, way I see it. The disillusioned ones wont be putting themselves on the line for either cause.

Dorne and Episode 1 were kind of crap - this ep seemed back on some kind of track. Let's see if it lasts.

 

Agree with the Ghost part.

I wanted a more built up revival as I was watching it just cuz I thought it'd be cool to watch but afterwards I thought it made more sense this way and am glad they minamalized it.

Agree with the NW being split. I would add that a lot of the ardent Jon supporters would have probably gone to hardhome with him and many would have died. Plus some would have not liked the way he handled the wildling, which leads me to believe before the stabbing there are more Alister supporters than Jon.

Outside of Dorne (shitshow, unless the scene was just a way to get rid of Dorne and move on), I've actually really enjoyed this season so I would have to disagree with the OP. 

I've been enjoying a lot of the show more than the books recently. Still enjoy the books more so but never thought I'd enjoy so many more points in the show. Then again, could just be because after so many rereads, podcast listens and years waiting it's just good to have new material.

 

[Desert Fox]

I feel like there was a scene missing (maybe it was cut) that got Davos thinking about resurrection. Because he started that conversation at full blown "lets resurrect jon" mode. Why was he aware of resurrection and why hadn't he inquired about it sooner for use in other situations.

But I felt like the actual resurrection was pretty good. I'm not really a fan of back from the dead plots, so getting the bandaid off was the better option for me. I like that the show didn't go overboard on trying to maximize the drama and suspense. One ep of jon totally dead, and then his resurrection the next. Beats the dead fake outs on Walking Dead. Though Leftovers back from the dead plotline was way better than both.

[Lord Lannister]

I just don't get why Davos is suddenly so invested with Jon personally to the point of risking his life. Last season made sense being he was trying to persuade Jon to join with Stannis, but even if he "sees something" in Jon like he thought Stannis did, what's the Night's Watch to him but a group of criminals who murdered their last two leaders on the edge of the world?

[Free Northman Reborn]

The biggest downfall of the Show has always been that it tries to cover too many storylines for a 1 hour episode based medium.

Basically, every episode is a series of 10 minute sequences that jump around to different parts of the world. The hopping about makes every scene lose depth and creates a superficial and disjointed overall feel to the plot.

They should have been more realistic from the start, by cutting all the uneccesary parts of the series and doubling the time spent on the really crucial plotlines.

Basically, cut Dorne, cut Asha, cut 80% of Brienne and Bron's screentimes, cut Euron completely, cut all the whorehouse scenes, cut 50% of Ramsay's screentime.

With the hours of broadcast time saved they could have focused in far more depth on the storylines that remain.

The Show simply cannot do all the storylines justice. That is why so many events seem unearned or out of character.