Jon ?????

[BIG_SUGE_DADDY]

For starters this is my first post on this forum and id like to get it out of the way and say of course I'm a believer of the RL=J theory, what true fan wouldn't be? And secondly I have read the ASOIAF series, watched the GOT series and have even read the tales of Dunk and Egg! But I definitely don't claim to be a Maester of the Westeros Universe lol

But I do have a couple questions!

1st how come Tyrion never once in any of the books or show suggests that Jon has a "noble" (Targaryen) look, but he picks it up with Aegon almost instantly? 

I know he says early on in the first book he has the Stark look, yes I know they are a noble family, but the blood of Old Valyria  is strong, and he would have to show some features, for me it's not enough to say he's got the Stark look with out going past just his hair and eyes! Even if they are of the Stark mould in colour, surly other features like his chin, jaw, cheeks etc would have tipped Tyrion off?

Dont forget Aegon is supposed to be dead, has dyed hair and lives on a boat but Tyrion still spots it fairly quickly! And if Aegon is supposedly fAegon, due to being a Blackfyre of a lesser branch, then why does he share such noble features but Jon doesn't???

 

2nd assuming RL weren't married, as Raegar was already married (yes I know about the Targaryan multiple marriages blah blah blah but this is very u likely), wouldn't that actually make Jon a Blackfyre?

and if that's so is it conceivable that with Jon returning from the dead he should not only gain the support from the whole of the north, baring a couple houses, but he will also be able to gain support from Aegon and the GC? As the GC supposedly are meant to have loyalties to house Blackfyre?

You then throw Dany and her dragons into the mix and the battle of Ice and fire will have its 3 heads.... 

Daenerys Targaryen

Jon Blackfyre

Aegon Blackfyre/Targaryen

 

ps if Robbs letter legitanises Jon, would that still carry weight if his last name was Blackfyre and not Snow? Actually Making him Jon Targaryen! Then depending on what eventuates with Aegon they could all be Targaryens!

[Lord Wraith]

4 minutes ago, Matt Thornton said:

For starters this is my first post on this forum and id like to get it out of the way and say of course I'm a believer of the RL=J theory, what true fan wouldn't be? And secondly I have read the ASOIAF series, watched the GOT series and have even read the tales of Dunk and Egg! But I definitely don't claim to be a Maester of the Westeros Universe lol

But I do have a couple questions!

1st how come Tyrion never once in any of the books or show suggests that Jon has a "noble" (Targaryen) look, but he picks it up with Aegon almost instantly? 

I know he says early on in the first book he has the Stark look, yes I know they are a noble family, but the blood of Old Valyria  is strong, and he would have to show some features, for me it's not enough to say he's got the Stark look with out going past just his hair and eyes! Even if they are of the Stark mould in colour, surly other features like his chin, jaw, cheeks etc would have tipped Tyrion off?

Dont forget Aegon is supposed to be dead, has dyed hair and lives on a boat but Tyrion still spots it fairly quickly! And if Aegon is supposedly fAegon, due to being a Blackfyre of a lesser branch, then why does he share such noble features but Jon doesn't???

 

2nd assuming RL weren't married, as Raegar was already married (yes I know about the Targaryan multiple marriages blah blah blah but this is very u likely), wouldn't that actually make Jon a Blackfyre?

and if that's so is it conceivable that with Jon returning from the dead he should not only gain the support from the whole of the north, baring a couple houses, but he will also be able to gain support from Aegon and the GC? As the GC supposedly are meant to have loyalties to house Blackfyre?

You then throw Dany and her dragons into the mix and the battle of Ice and fire will have its 3 heads.... 

Daenerys Targaryen

Jon Blackfyre

Aegon Blackfyre/Targaryen

 

ps if Robbs letter legitanises Jon, would that still carry weight if his last name was Blackfyre and not Snow? Actually Making him Jon Targaryen! Then depending on what eventuates with Aegon they could all be Targaryens!

First welcome to the forum.

Secondly not believing in R+L=J doesn't make you any less a fan.

Tyrion doesn't see Targ features in Jon because Jon's features are very Starkish. Aegon does have the Valyrian features. Blackfyre's refer to the descendants of Daemon Blackfyre and not to Targaryen bastards in general.

Also the World Book show us that not all people who marry Targaryens have Targ looking kids. Baelor Breakspear in particular looks very Martell despite being half Targaryen. This might explain why Jon doesn't have the Targ looks. Or Jon just might not be a Targaryen, wouldn't be the end of the world.

Again welcome to the forums and let me know if you have any more questions.

 

[JonCon's Red Beard]

There is a chance that Jon could have some Targ looks, but the Stark features are more obvious and no one is looking for Rhaegar's face there. So, anything that doesn't look "Stark", people assume it to be from his mother, whoever she is.

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

5 minutes ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

There is a chance that Jon could have some Targ looks, but the Stark features are more obvious and no one is looking for Rhaegar's face there. So, anything that doesn't look "Stark", people assume it to be from his mother, whoever she is.

Grey eyes can look purple or in this case purple eyes can look grey... 

[JonCon's Red Beard]

13 minutes ago, The Great and Mighty Poo said:

Grey eyes can look purple or in this case purple eyes can look grey... 

Could be, but I think someone could have noticed.

Maybe someone who really knew rhaegar could have noticed. Aemon could have seen his brother or father on Jon's face. Or maybe, if Connington gets to the Wall, he says "you have Rhaegar's ears!!".

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

2 minutes ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

Could be, but I think someone could have noticed.

Maybe someone who really knew rhaegar could have noticed. Aemon could have seen his brother or father on Jon's face. Or maybe, if Connington gets to the Wall, he says "you have Rhaegar's ears!!".

You're right most likely. Unless they were all conveniently "blind" to it for plot purposes. Also sometimes people see what they want to see. Like they want to see the grey eyes of a stark etc etc. Though as you said someone could have noticed. 

 

Have you ever been able to see someone's ears on a close relative? (Like you have ypur aunts ear lobes) Because I haven't. Nose and eyes I have. I've heard of people claiming to see lips before but I have a hard time believing them.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

2 minutes ago, The Great and Mighty Poo said:

You're right most likely. Unless they were all conveniently "blind" to it for plot purposes. Also sometimes people see what they want to see. Like they want to see the grey eyes of a stark etc etc. Though as you said someone could have noticed. 

 

Have you ever been able to see someone's ears on a close relative? (Like you have ypur aunts ear lobes) Because I haven't. Nose and eyes I have. I've heard of people claiming to see lips before but I have a hard time believing them.

It has to be quite a very specific kind of lips. I have small lips and my son and  his dad have them puffy. So, it's veeeery obvious for anyone in the family to notice that.

But I'm sure Cersei and JonCon would recognise Rhaegar's ears

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

14 minutes ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

It has to be quite a very specific kind of lips. I have small lips and my son and  his dad have them puffy. So, it's veeeery obvious for anyone in the family to notice that.

But I'm sure Cersei and JonCon would recognise Rhaegar's ears

I don't think Cersei would recognize her own destruction.. naw I'm not even going to attempt it I'm not funny. But you sold it for me .

[Macgregor of the North]

It's not just Jons eyes and hair. He also has that often mentioned long Stark face. So it seems Jon has nothing really of the Targ features, but it is not uncommon. Somebody mentioned Baelor Breakspear above. It just happens sometimes. 

[Lord Wraith]

35 minutes ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

It has to be quite a very specific kind of lips. I have small lips and my son and  his dad have them puffy. So, it's veeeery obvious for anyone in the family to notice that.

But I'm sure Cersei and JonCon would recognise Rhaegar's ears

Well not everyone is obsessive as Cersei and JonCon.

[Ebrose]

5 hours ago, Matt Thornton said:

For starters this is my first post on this forum and id like to get it out of the way and say of course I'm a believer of the RL=J theory, what true fan wouldn't be? And secondly I have read the ASOIAF series, watched the GOT series and have even read the tales of Dunk and Egg! But I definitely don't claim to be a Maester of the Westeros Universe lol

Hi there! First post on the forum as well, and hopefully not the last one =)

I am also a believer in R+L=J, but as @Lord Wraith stated not every "true fan" is!!! 

I know he says early on in the first book he has the Stark look, yes I know they are a noble family, but the blood of Old Valyria  is strong, and he would have to show some features, for me it's not enough to say he's got the Stark look with out going past just his hair and eyes! 

In fact, apparently it is completely the opposite and valyrian traits are recessive. Apart from Baelor Breakspear, there are a few other examples of Targaryens without valyrian looks at all, such as Prince Duncan and poor little princess Rhaenys. Several descendants of Targaryen bastards did not look valyrian , but had valyrian-like eyes, that's true: Daemon II Blackfyre and Aegon Rivers, for instance. But let's not forget that Baratheons are all (probably) descendants from a Targaryen bastard and Martells have also Targaryen blood and they not share their looks at all. Wanting to keep their valyrian heritage pure, and being aware of how easily their characteristic traits were eclipsed by "less-noble" looks (and the fear of losing the "blood of the dragon") led them to believe that inbreeding was a good idea.

Dont forget Aegon is supposed to be dead, has dyed hair and lives on a boat but Tyrion still spots it fairly quickly! And if Aegon is supposedly fAegon, due to being a Blackfyre of a lesser branch, then why does he share such noble features but Jon doesn't???

Daynes also have valyrian-like features and, as GRRM has said, that does not mean that they are actually valyrian descendants. Several natives of Lys have also kept valyrian-like traits. So it is not impossible to have this looks even if you are not a direct Targaryen descendant.

Also remember that of the Stark kids only Arya and Jon have Stark-like looks. The rest look mostly (or even entirely) like Tullys. So there is no reason to believe that their parentage forces children in ASOIAF to have traits of both their parents.

2nd assuming RL weren't married, as Raegar was already married (yes I know about the Targaryan multiple marriages blah blah blah but this is very u likely), wouldn't that actually make Jon a Blackfyre?

No. Not every Targaryen bastard is a Blackfyre; only descendants of Daemon Waters/Blackfyre, son of Aegon the Unworthy with his cousin Daena Targaryen are considered Blackfyres. The other Great Bastards, siblings of Daemon, such as Bittersteel, Bloodraven or Shiera Seastar, are not Blackfyres. In addition to that, as stated above, Baratheons are also apparently descendants of Targaryen bastards, Orys Baratheon being supposedly Aegon the Conqueror's bastard half-brother.

Whether or not Jon's supposed Targaryen bastardy would encourage the GC to support an eventual claim to the Iron Throne... well, I don't think we will ever know but I personally doubt it. That said, most of their members would probably support anyone that promised them titles and fortune in their ancestor's homeland. They are apparently supporting a non-Blackfyre at the moment, which makes me wonder what do they really know about Aegon's aka Young Griff identity.