Jump to content

Disappointing Revival?


Hackforth

Recommended Posts

I found it fine. The only issue i took was that Davos used the word "Miracles" to describe Mel's powers. This is really out of character for him. If he had said "you've shown me that the impossible is possible" or something to that effect, id have less of a lowkey beef. As for Davos' connection with Jon, yeah it really is all there in explanation. Davos sees someone Stannis respected and gives Jon that kind of respect. He also saw how Jon fucking led a bunch of guys to Hardhome and managed to survive an onslaught of Others. He saw Jon whos rather green still, try to do the right thing regarding the Night's Watch and the wildlings. Davos knows damn well Jon is a dude worth getting worked up about. He also doesnt have anyone else to lean on for any real sign of hope, but Jon. 

As for the cost of the resurrection, theres all this goddamn focus on Melisandre building up to this, guys. The cost is her faith, which includes Stannis and Shireen's demises. The cost is everything is fucking falling apart. Mel very likely did have to give a piece of herself to do this, but its unclear because of one very obvious thing that Beric (and Thoros) didnt have. Jon is a warg and Ghost was in the room. Instead of whatever magic it was that pulls someone out of the "other side", Jon's spirit was likely within Ghost and waiting, conscious. Ghost being asleep when this situation was going on is significant. If not, ill eat my helm. He only wakes up right when Jon wakes up. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

People should really hold off on the Davos criticism until we know for sure that he is never going to second guess what Melisandre did. He may very well be holding back just out of sheer shock and the fact that Melisandre is obviously broken up over it as well. There are plenty of other issues, bigger issues, to worry about.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Dragon in the North said:

The only problem I had with it was Davos's motivations, like others have said, but other than that, I was fine with it. I knew he was coming back, having read the books and paid attention to filming spoilers, so I'm glad they didn't postpone it for very long.  I'm also glad they kept it simple. If you think about it, that's really the only way they could have brought Jon back, because it's the only precedent that has been set in earlier seasons. Any other method or giant spectacle would have felt like Deus Ex Machina.

To me they made sense.  He's clearly grown to like Jon over the last season, but that's not what's motivating him.  More importantly, he sees what Jon has done and who Jon is.  He's the only man left who can reunite the North and the only man the Wildlings trust south of the Wall.  He's an amazing leader with the right pedigree...and Davos understands how badly the humans will need that against the coming apocalypse.  And while he hates magic, he knows that it is real and can do wondrous things.  Melisandre says "I saw him [Jon] in the flames, fighting at Winterfell" in front of Davos...so Davos may have thought at that point "then maybe there's a chance for this to work."

That's how I see it...maybe Davos will eventually state why he did it, but in my eyes, it was clear that he knows that they can't afford to lose Jon with the White Walkers and their army heading for them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I didn't hate it. I though for a moment that when he awoke he would have red eyes, like Ghost, but that might have been a little over the top. But raised wights have blue eyes, so...

I'm also thinking that after being dead for so long, his lungs would be in pretty bad shape, since they are the last to develop in the womb and the first to go after death. But, hey, magic is magic.

And did it seem to anyone else that it was at least working a little bit before Mel gave up? The wounds were already starting to heal up and his color was coming back? Some orders have you praying for hours or even days when asking something significant from their gods, but Mel is ready to bag it after only three prayers? Cmon Mel, step up to the plate and try to get some more wood on the ball.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I thought it was great precisely becuase it was the opposite of  of all the Jon Targarean the Messiah that people came up with.

 

I expect his resurrection will actually foreshadow how his plot  goes. He will carry out the functions of the PTWP  but without all the pomp and flash that people expect to go with it.  His ancestry may even be something that only a very few discover and beleive. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

I really liked that it was quiet and in the background and nobody saw it. Anything more dramatic and it would have been like the second coming of Jesus.

Wasn't quite so keen on the events leading up to it however, seemed pretty rushed.

Not to pick on you but Jesus supposedly came out of his tomb without a crowd. When Jon walks around next week is when you will get that moment.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't have any problem with the resurrection, We all knew it was coming, and I actually appreciate that it wasn't overdone and mystical. I'm just glad they didn't have to kill Ghost to do it.  I do hope they explain why Davos wanted him back so bad, that is the only part that I was iffy on, but that wasn't enough to make me dislike the scene, or the episode.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I just thought the scene was excessively long, dragged out and uneventful. Maybe if they spaced it better throughout the episode it wouldn't have been as tedious, but I found myself dozing during my second rewatch only to be jolted awake by the dramatic credit music. Melisandre's actress did a wonderful job of playing a shattered character and Tormund's enraged look as he turns his back and leaves were the only high points.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I loved it. I felt it was perfect, especially with Ghost's waking and small happy whimper. 

So did all my friends who were over. We couldn't stop screaming. I literally had the time to think to myself, I'm screaming at my television, and so is everyone in this room - and I just took a breath and am still screaming..."

Perfect.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I will remain convinced unless proven wrong by The Winds of Winter that Melisandre will sacrifice Shireen to bring Jon back, and that Benioff and Weiss were simply too cowardly to weigh down their audience with that emotional baggage.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 hours ago, Balerion the one eared cat said:

I agree, the whole scene was predictable and anticlimatic. Firstly I'm still bemused why Davos is so invested in Jon and trusting of Mel. Everyone's said it a million times, but she brought about the death of they guy that raised him up from nothing, the sweet little girl he essentially adopted and Selyse who was Mel's most ardent follower. Why on earth would he trust her, and why on earth would he care about Jon being brought back?

Also, it's annoyed me immensely that there doesn't seem to have been any cost to the ressurection. They've emphasised incessantly throughout the show that any form of real magic demands a sacrifice - only death can pay for life. Kingsblood, leeches, burnings, nothing? They killed Shireen to get rid of a snow flurry (oh, yeah, where the hell is this winter that's supposedly arrived?! I'll save that for another thread...) but bringing someone back from the dead just needs a clean shave and a nice bath? Anyone care to explain where this "power" has come from? Especially since they've been trying to show us the last few episodes how completely disconnected Mel feels from TLoL and her magic. They've portrayed her as lost, dejected and beaten, but she somehow has the power to summon someone back from the dead?

I'm intrigued whether the cost will be to Jon, rather than to Mel/another sacrifice. Perhaps that pan down to Ghost (yay, they remembered he existed two seasons later!) means he's going to come back more... "wolfy", wild, etc. I mean he did look pretty freaked out when he woke up. I really hope it isn't a case of "you've been dead for an indeterminate time and possibly warged into your wolf but you're Jun Snuhhh so you'll be exactly the same as before you died." 

I'm interested by the idea that Bran or BR intervened. Although they did look quite busy showing Bran baby Ned. But I guess he does have a thousand eyes and one... (metaphorically, I guess now?) Then again, are D&D really going to be able to explain the complexity of the Weirnet/BR's power? 

 

TLDR: Yep, it was boring, anticlimatic and unsatisfying with a significant number of plot holes. Just like the rest of this season so far...

Why would he trust her? She's never lied, she survived poison, and she gave birth to the Smoke Monster from LOST. Davos explained that. I think he trusts her just fine, and knows she believes that she's doing the right thing, I just think he doesn't like her very much, or how she goes about it. He thought she put Stannis (and his family - they shouldn't even be at the Wall) in danger (correctly), and made Stannis look bad in front of his men. Now that Stannis is dead, who can lead everyone with Jon also dead? Edd? Tormund? Davos? I'm pretty sure Davos has been filled in about Hardhome by now.

Jon is Mance 2.0 for Tormund, and the Wildlings, and was everyone who isn't in a cell's Lord Commander.

Thoros did far less to bring Beric back. 

Maybe Olly is dead in his cell? One can hope.... only death can pay for life.... come on!!!

BR & Bran are for identifying Jon's legitimacy. I see a wedding in front of a Heart Tree.

That scene was all about Lyanna, and her knowledge of combat, (hence her instructions to Hodor/Wyliss), so when we see the Tourney of HH, when Rhaegar fell in love with her while she was disguised, it will make sense to the television audience.

I don't think we need the weirnet explained at this point, they've done a fine job visually already planting that seed in season 4.

I was not at all confused by this episode. Loved it. Top five.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 hours ago, Ser Yorick Ampersand said:

It was far from memorable, but it was ok I guess.

It was a bit weird seeing Davos asking Melisandre to give him life since Davos should be angry with her because of Shireen and he doesnt like magic.

I'm going to take a leap and say you meant the burning part re: Shireen? 

I've seen a few of those posts and I don't get why. How would Davos know about that? Did the deserters come to Castle Black? Did someone who isn't dead or gone think to send CB a raven (if they still have any)? The only person I can think of who's at The Wall that knows is Mel. Why would she give him that info? She's not cruel. All he needs to know is that they're all dead. She knew that was inevitable after the massive desertion.

Sure, he can be angry that she allowed Selyse and Shireen off of Dragonstone in the first place, and then took them essentially into battle. But this woman gave birth to a smoke baby, and survived poison - was that also the Strangler?

But right now, Davos is being his practical, surviving self. She's his best hope, because he realizes Jon was/is likely the only hope to hold The Wall/World.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, ShadowKitteh said:

I'm going to take a leap and say you meant the burning part re: Shireen? 

I've seen a few of those posts and I don't get why. How would Davos know about that? Did the deserters come to Castle Black? Did someone who isn't dead or gone think to send CB a raven (if they still have any)? The only person I can think of who's at The Wall that knows is Mel. Why would she give him that info? She's not cruel. All he needs to know is that they're all dead. She knew that was inevitable after the massive desertion.

Yep. Over and over and on this thread too. Winterfell is 650 miles from Castle Black by Kingsroad. Stannis was last seen in Deepwood Motte which is even further away. Of all the places to go after deserting/being split up in battle, Castle Black would be the most suicidal without provisions and even probably horses. White Harbour is closer, the west coast is closer, by a massive amount.

So no-one is coming to Castle Black to tell Davos what happened. In time word may filter through but certainly not that quick. As for ravens, Maesters look after the ravens and ravens are homing, so you'd have to have 1. A Maester and 2. Castle Black ravens for any message to get through that way.

TLDR? Davos couldn't possibly know about how Shireen died.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I thought it was played out pretty well in the episode.

Davos asks Mel for help but she has lost all her faith and given up on life it seems. She thinks everything is a lie and has no idea what to really do or what to believe, she is realising some of her prophecy was probably nonsense and she most likely got Stannis killed and burned his daughter for naught.

Then we see Balon get killed and suddenly it looks like there might actually be some truth in her visions and her "spells", but she doesn't realise this as she has no knowledge of Balon dying. But we the viewers (or those who remember) are given a hint that maybe things are not as hopeless as she thinks they are.

During the resurrection scene you get the impression she's just trying to make the stuff up on the spot, maybe she's seen it happen only a few times and can't remember the right words and actions (totally remind me of this!!)? Then she finally gives in and resigns in failure, finally realising she has no power to bring Jon back.

I thought Ghost waking up and sensing something was very cool, shows that the Direwolves were not just pets but there's something more to them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree it was disappointing. Maybe part of that is because we all knew it was coming. But it was just so easy. Some chanting, some hair burning and boom! Jon is alive again. Isn't there supposed to be some sort of sacrifice here? I saw someone on another thread posit that in the books Shireen's death pays for Jon's resurrection and D+D didn't have the cahoneys to tie the resurrection of a clearly heroic character to the death of a small girl. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Lordsteve666 said:

I thought it was played out pretty well in the episode.

Davos asks Mel for help but she has lost all her faith and given up on life it seems. She thinks everything is a lie and has no idea what to really do or what to believe, she is realising some of her prophecy was probably nonsense and she most likely got Stannis killed and burned his daughter for naught.

But...why does Davos go to Mel? Why is he such a huge fan of Jon that he is willing to put aside all of his previous morals and distrust of Mel and her dark magic to resurrect this guy he's barely met? I can get why he isn't cool with Thorne committing mutiny, but Davos being so instrumental in Jon's resurrection just isn't in character. It's like he's a brand new character. There's been no mention of Stannis or Shireen - whose deaths Mel indirectly and directly caused. Davos' characterisation is now entirely Jon's loyal man. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, protar said:

But...why does Davos go to Mel? Why is he such a huge fan of Jon that he is willing to put aside all of his previous morals and distrust of Mel and her dark magic to resurrect this guy he's barely met? I can get why he isn't cool with Thorne committing mutiny, but Davos being so instrumental in Jon's resurrection just isn't in character. It's like he's a brand new character. There's been no mention of Stannis or Shireen - whose deaths Mel indirectly and directly caused. Davos' characterisation is now entirely Jon's loyal man. 

 I know we almost never agree. But I agree. :)

I mean its not even that Davos is a fan of Jon. That I can maybe understand, maybe he see's Jon as a good leader and someone he respects and who was doing a good thing, and his death was unjust.

But why would he suddenly think there is this 'get out of jail card' of bringing him back to life. Where did that even come from? It just appeared out of nowhere in his head. 

I'm not massively keen on that to be honest.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On ‎03‎.‎05‎.‎2016 at 6:10 AM, Hackforth said:

Was anyone else really disappointed by Jon's revival?

Yes but not by how it happened but that it happened at all - not a Jon fan. Also, I thought it was pretty cheesy - it was SO obvious that Mel was going to try a couple of time, then assume that she had failed, leave the room with the others and that afterwards Jon would come back with a gasp.

Thanks for the explanations re. Davos. I was a little confused that the guy who hated Mel so much would really turn to her for help in order to resurrect another guy he had known only briefly. Saying that Davos is a follower and sensed something in Jon does make sense. However, I still can't get over the fact that he doesn't hold Mel responsible for the deaths of Stannis, Selyse, and Shireen. He never had much sympathy for her and always thought she would do more harm than good. Now he just accepts that his king is dead and follows the next guy. Of course, there's not much he can do at this point. His king is dead, and he really has nowhere left to go.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...