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Disappointing Revival?


Hackforth

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11 hours ago, Florina Laufeyson said:

I found it fine. The only issue i took was that Davos used the word "Miracles" to describe Mel's powers. This is really out of character for him. If he had said "you've shown me that the impossible is possible" or something to that effect, id have less of a lowkey beef. As for Davos' connection with Jon, yeah it really is all there in explanation. Davos sees someone Stannis respected and gives Jon that kind of respect. He also saw how Jon fucking led a bunch of guys to Hardhome and managed to survive an onslaught of Others. He saw Jon whos rather green still, try to do the right thing regarding the Night's Watch and the wildlings. Davos knows damn well Jon is a dude worth getting worked up about. He also doesnt have anyone else to lean on for any real sign of hope, but Jon. 

As for the cost of the resurrection, theres all this goddamn focus on Melisandre building up to this, guys. The cost is her faith, which includes Stannis and Shireen's demises. The cost is everything is fucking falling apart. Mel very likely did have to give a piece of herself to do this, but its unclear because of one very obvious thing that Beric (and Thoros) didnt have. Jon is a warg and Ghost was in the room. Instead of whatever magic it was that pulls someone out of the "other side", Jon's spirit was likely within Ghost and waiting, conscious. Ghost being asleep when this situation was going on is significant. If not, ill eat my helm. He only wakes up right when Jon wakes up. 

Pretty much this. I loved the resurrection, it made sense to me. Looking forward to next week.

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1 hour ago, protar said:

But...why does Davos go to Mel? Why is he such a huge fan of Jon that he is willing to put aside all of his previous morals and distrust of Mel and her dark magic to resurrect this guy he's barely met? I can get why he isn't cool with Thorne committing mutiny, but Davos being so instrumental in Jon's resurrection just isn't in character. It's like he's a brand new character. There's been no mention of Stannis or Shireen - whose deaths Mel indirectly and directly caused. Davos' characterisation is now entirely Jon's loyal man. 

He goes to Mel because he's seen her commit acts which could only be explained by her having magical powers or the backing of some mysterious god. We're talking about show Davos here so i'm basing this purely on what has happened in the show. Davos knows of Jon initially from the letters Jon sends out asking for help at the Wall. Davos is the one who reads it first and persuades Stannis to help out. He seems to be a sensible and honorable enough guys that when the last line of defense calls for help from the Seven Kingdoms it's pretty serious. So he knows Jon is not likely to be a waste of time.

Then in the short time Davos has been at the Wall he's seen Jon defend it against an army of wildings, get a truce with the same wildings, allow them safe passage and lead a suicide mission to rescue more people at Hardhome. It's pretty clear to us viewers Jon is a good person to follow and support and I think show Davos see this clearly. Hence why he's locked in a tower defending Jon's body.
He's gone to Mel because he's the one person he knows for sure can make some sort of miracle happen, be it resurrecting Jon or summoning a shadowbaby to kill the mutineers. He's not just following Jon on a whim here.

As for Stannis and Shireen's deaths, i'm going to guess that news hasn't reached them properly yet. I mean the time between the end of S5 and now is only 1-2 days at the most. Stannis died hundreds of miles south and nobody survived that encounter to tell the tale of what happened. For all Davos knows Mel left ahead of the battle or never went that far south, he could just assume Stannis's army got caught out and everyone is dead, regardless of Mel's involvement.

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1 hour ago, Jehane said:

Yes but not by how it happened but that it happened at all - not a Jon fan. Also, I thought it was pretty cheesy - it was SO obvious that Mel was going to try a couple of time, then assume that she had failed, leave the room with the others and that afterwards Jon would come back with a gasp.

Thanks for the explanations re. Davos. I was a little confused that the guy who hated Mel so much would really turn to her for help in order to resurrect another guy he had known only briefly. Saying that Davos is a follower and sensed something in Jon does make sense. However, I still can't get over the fact that he doesn't hold Mel responsible for the deaths of Stannis, Selyse, and Shireen. He never had much sympathy for her and always thought she would do more harm than good. Now he just accepts that his king is dead and follows the next guy. Of course, there's not much he can do at this point. His king is dead, and he really has nowhere left to go.

Davos is a very practical and honorable man...even if Stannis weren't dead, I could still see him doing this because that's his nature.  Also, I seriously doubt that Davos would lay all the blame for Stannis' actions at Melisandre's feet...as much as she contributed to his downfall, it was ultimately Stannis who sealed his own fate by his own actions.  Davos warned him of it over and over again, but Stannis refused to listen.

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1 hour ago, Lordsteve666 said:

Davos knows of Jon initially from the letters Jon sends out asking for help at the Wall. Davos is the one who reads it first and persuades Stannis to help out.

That was Sam and Aemon, though. He initially knows Jon from him hanging out with Mance Rayder. ;)

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Nope, I freaked out when it happened because right up to the point he gasped I assumed Mel had failed. And I'm glad they took the low key approach since all the fanfare would have seemed more cliched to me. That, and I wasn't expecting it this soon, I assumed it would happen in the next episode at least.

The one thing that did slightly bother me was Davos' insistence that Mel try to revive him, but I guess he felt he had nothing to lose by getting her to try...he has seen her do amazing things and perhaps he figure she could pull this off as well.

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2 hours ago, Lordsteve666 said:

He goes to Mel because he's seen her commit acts which could only be explained by her having magical powers or the backing of some mysterious god. We're talking about show Davos here so i'm basing this purely on what has happened in the show. Davos knows of Jon initially from the letters Jon sends out asking for help at the Wall. Davos is the one who reads it first and persuades Stannis to help out. He seems to be a sensible and honorable enough guys that when the last line of defense calls for help from the Seven Kingdoms it's pretty serious. So he knows Jon is not likely to be a waste of time.

Then in the short time Davos has been at the Wall he's seen Jon defend it against an army of wildings, get a truce with the same wildings, allow them safe passage and lead a suicide mission to rescue more people at Hardhome. It's pretty clear to us viewers Jon is a good person to follow and support and I think show Davos see this clearly. Hence why he's locked in a tower defending Jon's body.
He's gone to Mel because he's the one person he knows for sure can make some sort of miracle happen, be it resurrecting Jon or summoning a shadowbaby to kill the mutineers. He's not just following Jon on a whim here.

As for Stannis and Shireen's deaths, i'm going to guess that news hasn't reached them properly yet. I mean the time between the end of S5 and now is only 1-2 days at the most. Stannis died hundreds of miles south and nobody survived that encounter to tell the tale of what happened. For all Davos knows Mel left ahead of the battle or never went that far south, he could just assume Stannis's army got caught out and everyone is dead, regardless of Mel's involvement.

I have no doubt that Davos thinks that Jon is a good man. Like some people didn't even get why Davos would side against Thorne but I can see that. But bringing someone back from the dead is no trivial matter in this setting (or so we thought) and the only resurrection Davos should be familiar with at this point is Wights. Even if we assume that Davos somehow doesn't know that Mel is responsible for Stannis' and Shireen's deaths (which seems impossible - when Mel turned up at the Wall all upset he clearly knew something was up and she outright talks about how her vision of Stannis' victory was false - so we can assume that they know of his defeat.) he's never shown anything but distrust and horror towards Mel's magic. So why - when this person he barely knows, (even if he does respect him) dies - does Davos come to Mel telling her that she can perform miracles? Asking her to perform a ritual that he doesn't even know for sure exists? Why is it so important to him that Jon is bought back from the dead? People die all the time. Why is Jon of all people the one to get Davos to completely forsake his previous ideology? It is because he's a main character. Immersion is broken.

It makes resurrection seem easy and casual. "Oh this guy is dead, you wouldn't happen to know of some magic to bring him back would you?" If Jon can be bought back this easily, with no particularly strong motivation from any party involved, why can that not be true of anyone else? Obviously this all hinges on how Jon's character is treated in coming episodes, but for now it very much cheapens character death which is poison to a show which relies so much on cheap deaths. Unless there is some payment for Jon's life which we have yet to see, every death in Mel's vicinity becomes a plot hole. 

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I don't understand why so many people can't understand why Davos would even talk to Mel. At the end of the episode 1, let's say there are 100 men of the NW at castle black (I have no idea the actual number), maybe 5 of them are in the room with Davos. So that means there's 95 men outside that (as far as you know) are waiting to kill you, and Mel. It seems obvious to me that if you're stuck in a room, needing help to survive, and 95 out of 96 people outside want to kill you, you'd be cool with asking 96th person for help, no matter what your history with that person. 

I know that when he actual asked her for help it is after Thorne was thrown in a cell, but the idea of using her magic to help him was first considered when they were trapped. 

The resurrection was a little predictable, but I was ok with it. As it was happening I thought it might be a failure and we'd see him resurrected in a different way, so it wasn't COMPLETELY predictable. It seemed so obvious that he was going to come back, I thought it would be a fun surprise if he didn't open his eyes until the beginning of the next episode, just to mess with us viewers a little. 

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8 hours ago, protar said:

But...why does Davos go to Mel? Why is he such a huge fan of Jon that he is willing to put aside all of his previous morals and distrust of Mel and her dark magic to resurrect this guy he's barely met? I can get why he isn't cool with Thorne committing mutiny, but Davos being so instrumental in Jon's resurrection just isn't in character. It's like he's a brand new character. There's been no mention of Stannis or Shireen - whose deaths Mel indirectly and directly caused. Davos' characterisation is now entirely Jon's loyal man. 

The involvement of Davos and how inexplicable it is might ultimately prove a big indicator that he is not involved in these events at all in the books -- I for one very much doubt that Davos will be present during Jon's resurrection, much less that he will actually be the one to convince Melisandre. 

Not sure what Benioff and Weiss should have done differently though. Having decided to get rid of Stannis early and get rid of the find Rickon plot, they wrote themselves into an alley. Logically, with Stannis and Shireen dead, Davos should go home but obviously they could not do that.

This is why changes to source material can be so difficult. Perhaps they should have had Davos go look for Stannis, never crossing paths with Melisandre on her way back to Castle Black, only to run into Brienne and Sansa, thereby setting up the storyline he will be carrying this season (i.e., rallying the Northern houses in support of Sansa). 

But then that creates problems for Melisandre. How is she going to convince Jon's loyal comrades to take directions from her? She would have had to return with Queen's Men, which itself does not make very much sense. And why would she think to resurrect Jon Snow? There is no indication on the show that she suspects he is Azor Ahai. 

I almost feel this all stems from either the showrunners' reluctance to have Shireen burn to death for Jon's life or their desire to shorten Stannis' storyline, or both. Once they decided on that course, they had to have Melisandre and Shireen go with Stannis to Winterfell, have Stannis killed off immediately, have Melisandre lose hope and scramble back to Jon, etc. 

I am pretty sure the book and the show are getting to the same place (i.e., Jon revived by Melisandre and with her at the Wall, preparing to take Winterfell with the Wildings), but because of the plot gymnastics Benioff and Weiss engaged in, their product is decidedly inferior. 

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2 hours ago, Faint said:

The involvement of Davos and how inexplicable it is might ultimately prove a big indicator that he is not involved in these events at all in the books -- I for one very much doubt that Davos will be present during Jon's resurrection, much less that he will actually be the one to convince Melisandre. 

Not sure what Benioff and Weiss should have done differently though. Having decided to get rid of Stannis early and get rid of the find Rickon plot, they wrote themselves into an alley. Logically, with Stannis and Shireen dead, Davos should go home but obviously they could not do that.

This is why changes to source material can be so difficult. Perhaps they should have had Davos go look for Stannis, never crossing paths with Melisandre on her way back to Castle Black, only to run into Brienne and Sansa, thereby setting up the storyline he will be carrying this season (i.e., rallying the Northern houses in support of Sansa). 

But then that creates problems for Melisandre. How is she going to convince Jon's loyal comrades to take directions from her? She would have had to return with Queen's Men, which itself does not make very much sense. And why would she think to resurrect Jon Snow? There is no indication on the show that she suspects he is Azor Ahai. 

I almost feel this all stems from either the showrunners' reluctance to have Shireen burn to death for Jon's life or their desire to shorten Stannis' storyline, or both. Once they decided on that course, they had to have Melisandre and Shireen go with Stannis to Winterfell, have Stannis killed off immediately, have Melisandre lose hope and scramble back to Jon, etc. 

I am pretty sure the book and the show are getting to the same place (i.e., Jon revived by Melisandre and with her at the Wall, preparing to take Winterfell with the Wildings), but because of the plot gymnastics Benioff and Weiss engaged in, their product is decidedly inferior. 

This.  I still loved the resurrection scene, but there was definitely a failure at some point in explaining Davos's motivations.  It could have been rather simply done too.  Have some nice scenes with Jon and Davos where they are in agreement about plans to defeat the Others, unite the North, etc.  Then what you really needed was THIS season to have a conversation with Davos laying out his motivations. " I failed Stannis...I still need to save the Realm for his memory...Jon is the only person capable of uniting the wildlings with the Northmen to accomplish this...etc."

I'm not really sure if they thought of doing this scene and just cut it for time or something...but it is really missing this season.  

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14 hours ago, Faint said:

I will remain convinced unless proven wrong by The Winds of Winter that Melisandre will sacrifice Shireen to bring Jon back, and that Benioff and Weiss were simply too cowardly to weigh down their audience with that emotional baggage.

I was at first giving D&D the benefit of the doubt on Stannis' giving the nod on Shireen's burning but yeah with how "underwhelming" Jon's revival was I'm starting to get the feeling that's the situation

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1 minute ago, Stannis is the man....nis said:

I was at first giving D&D the benefit of the doubt on Stannis' giving the nod on Shireen's burning but yeah with how "underwhelming" Jon's revival was I'm starting to get the feeling that's the situation

I'm still not convinced it's only Mel.  They've seemingly cut (or extremely streamlined to the look Ghost gives John) the warg aspect.  So there may be more to it on that front as well.  

I can see Stannis burning Shireen (What is the life of one child against the realm after all), but the logistics just completely fail for him to do that to revive Jon.  So if Shireen is involved, it has to be Mel (and possible Selyse) acting independent of Stannis.

We'll see if Jon seems to have lost a part of himself next week, which could serve since that was all that was involved with Beric (coupled with Thoros himself growing more frail), but I doubt it.  

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4 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

This.  I still loved the resurrection scene, but there was definitely a failure at some point in explaining Davos's motivations.  It could have been rather simply done too.  Have some nice scenes with Jon and Davos where they are in agreement about plans to defeat the Others, unite the North, etc.  Then what you really needed was THIS season to have a conversation with Davos laying out his motivations. " I failed Stannis...I still need to save the Realm for his memory...Jon is the only person capable of uniting the wildlings with the Northmen to accomplish this...etc."

I'm not really sure if they thought of doing this scene and just cut it for time or something...but it is really missing this season.  

Davos motivation is the thing that does not makes sense at all in the scene before. I believe he would have wondered if mel could bring someone back as he has plenty of people he would like to see return like his son and etc... but he seems like he distrust her to much want to suggest it to her. There is probably someone in the book who he is taking that scene from like val. 

Jon and Dsvos did already have a scene about needing to protect the realm of men meaning even people like the wildlings and etc... that i get that davos would care about jon and all that but nothing seem to suggest he would like the idea of bringing anyone back to life with this creepy magic. 

The actual resurrection i like. I never thought it would be a big flashy thing. 

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Absolutely. I was kind of intrigued when Tormund suggested they burn him on the pyre; I thought Melly might have a resurgence of faith at that point after seeing something more in the flames; but him springing back to life on the bench after a very vague chant just felt contrived and underwhelming.

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2 minutes ago, JonSnow4President said:

I'm still not convinced it's only Mel.  They've seemingly cut (or extremely streamlined to the look Ghost gives John) the warg aspect.  So there may be more to it on that front as well.  

I can see Stannis burning Shireen (What is the life of one child against the realm after all), but the logistics just completely fail for him to do that to revive Jon.  So if Shireen is involved, it has to be Mel (and possible Selyse) acting independent of Stannis.

We'll see if Jon seems to have lost a part of himself next week, which could serve since that was all that was involved with Beric (coupled with Thoros himself growing more frail), but I doubt it.  

Agreed let's not forget that Selyse and Mel can find the PL and burn Shireen to bring Stannis back (which to Mel somehow fulfills Nisa Nisa as what Stannis loved had to be sacrificed to bring him back) Mel calls for the LOL's champion to return and instead Jon is brought back, Selyse goes off in despair an hangs herself and Mel left going "Oh...oh...............ohhhhhhh"

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6 minutes ago, Stannis is the man....nis said:

Agreed let's not forget that Selyse and Mel can find the PL and burn Shireen to bring Stannis back (which to Mel somehow fulfills Nisa Nisa as what Stannis loved had to be sacrificed to bring him back) Mel calls for the LOL's champion to return and instead Jon is brought back, Selyse goes off in despair an hangs herself and Mel left going "Oh...oh...............ohhhhhhh"

And hopefully Stannis or Davos burns her. 

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I'm disapponted she didn't actually kissed him. It's supposed to be Kiss of Life, no?

I wonder if now when we have seen her old form she will be completely desexualized.

 

Btw, guys, in the books the parent who shows any interest in Shireen and spends time with her is Selyse, not Stannis. I don't think she will be eager to burn her only child, who is also her only bond to Stannis and to the throne.

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18 minutes ago, JonSnow4President said:

I can see Stannis burning Shireen (What is the life of one child against the realm after all), but the logistics just completely fail for him to do that to revive Jon.  So if Shireen is involved, it has to be Mel (and possible Selyse) acting independent of Stannis.

We can only be sure that Melisandre is involved. Val is another possible participant though: 

“Greyscale.”

 

“The grey death is what we call it.”

 

“It is not always mortal in children.”

 

“North of the Wall it is. Hemlock is a sure cure, but a pillow or a blade will work as well. If I had given birth to that poor child, I would have given her the gift of mercy long ago.”

 

This was a Val that Jon had never seen before. “Princess Shireen is the queen’s only child.”

 

“I pity both of them. The child is not clean.”

 

“If Stannis wins his war, Shireen will stand as heir to the Iron Throne.”

 

“Then I pity your Seven Kingdoms.”

 

“The maesters say greyscale is not—”

 

“The maesters may believe what they wish. Ask a woods witch if you would know the truth. The grey death sleeps, only to wake again. The child is not clean!”

 

“She seems a sweet girl. You cannot know—”

 

“I can. You know nothing, Jon Snow.” Val seized his arm. “I want the monster out of there. Him and his wet nurses. You cannot leave them in that same tower as the dead girl.”

 

Jon shook her hand away. “She is not dead.”

 

“She is. Her mother cannot see it. Nor you, it seems. Yet death is there.”

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Oh yeah, I'd buy Val's involvement rather than Selyse's.

The question is though why Shireen being killed by Val would bring Jon back? By that logic, no one ever truly dies for long because he or she is resurrected the moment the next person dies.

In resurrection there has got to be some kind of intention or at least attention paid to the person who is about to come back to life. Not just the corpse absorbing some random person's lifeforce.

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1 minute ago, lojzelote said:

Oh yeah, I'd buy Val's involvement rather than Selyse's.

The question is though why Shireen being killed by Val would bring Jon back? By that logic, no one ever truly dies for long because he or she is resurrected the moment the next person dies.

In resurrection there has got to be some kind of intention or at least attention paid to the person who is about to come back to life. Not just the corpse absorbing some random person's lifeforce.

I think that passage is simply meant to show that the Wildings would not necessarily be opposed to killing Shireen (although I am sure they would do it more compassionately). It also emphasizes that her mother would not be in favor of it either.

Personally, I think it's going to be Melisandre and Melisandre only. 

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