Joe Abercrombie: The Collected Works (and in what order to read them) SPOILERS

[The hairy bear]

14 hours ago, Veltigar said:

My least favourite story was probably the Glokta one. Pretty much for the same reasons I had troubles with MaM, it just wasn't very grand, the whole capture of Sand dan Glokta. It felt a bit like going through the motions really, very mechanical in a way. Glokta needs to do this stupid thing, because that's what happened and not for something clearly defined.

I enjoyed A Beautiful Bastard. It is true that Glokta acts stupidly, but that's the Glokta before the was captured. The character that we meet in the trilogy is basically defined by his torture, so it's only normal that his older self seems a little bit out-of-character. He is arrogant and believes himself invulnerable, and that's how I expected him to behave before visiting the Emperor's prisons.

I agree that MaM, while effective on the surface, has Logen behave a little cartoonish. Until then, all the appearances of the Bloody nine had worked differently.

14 hours ago, Veltigar said:

1) Whirrun's sword is surely also made by Kanedias right?

I don't recall this being suggested. But one of the many legends about it says that it was made by God (Euz?) and given to the valley people by himself.

14 hours ago, Veltigar said:

2) Do we have any idea in which order Logen acquired his companions? I guess the Dogman followed him over the mountains, I guess Shama Heartless was his first opponent in a duel (I'd love to read a short story about that duel and all the others) and I guess Treetrees was the first opponent Logen spared. Black Dow was probably the latest addition to his merry band, but in which order did Tul Duru, Grim and Forley join the fold? And were there perhaps others who were sparred but died in other conflicts before the start of the First Law trilogy?

His companion from the begining was clearly the Dogman. But nearly everyone else is said to have joined "ten years ago", so around 566 the band fas already formed. Then there are some quotes that I think are arranged in chronological order:

"He [the Dogman] had been the one to ask Threetrees to surrender, at Uffrith, and been told to piss off. He’d had shit thrown down on him at Heonan. He’d offered duels to Black Dow, and to Tul Duru, and to Harding Grim."

"I [Bethod] wanted to talk with Shama Heartless, but you had to kill him! I tried to strike a deal at Heonan, but you had to climb up and settle your score, and start a dozen more! Peace, you say? I begged you to let me make peace at Uffrith, but you had to fight Threetrees! "

So I'd say that the order would be Dogman, Shama +, Threetrees, Black Dow, Tul Duru, Grim, and Forley; all of them (except perhaps Forley) recruited before MaM in 570.

There's also one quote saying that Logen fought "ten duels", so there are three victims of him we haven't heard about.

14 hours ago, Veltigar said:

Didn't one of the original twelve magi travel across the sea? I remember reading Bayaz saying something along those lines to Yulwei

Yeah, Bayaz says that a magus named Karnault disappeared "accross the wide ocean". Although I think it's possible that he and the other "absent" magi may have been killed by Bayaz in an attempt to eliminate possible rivals.

 

[SeanF]

14 hours ago, Veltigar said:

 

That's exactly the kind of quality Khalul looks for in his Eaters I'd say. If you look at Mamun, that's really his baseline throughout all his appearances in the series. Mamun knows that what he has done is horrible and wrong, but he sees his crimes as the only possible way to avenge Juvens and protect the world from Bayaz. He's always casting his decision to break the second law as his sacrifice, so it seems a safe bet that they'd rather take recruit potential Eaters with a similar conviction.

I hope we'll get more information about how Eaters are made in the next trilogy. I know the Second Law seemingly just means that you can't eat the flesh of other human beings, but there has to be some set of additional rules right? Can any regular Joe just get strong by eating someone else? If the Bloody-Nine bites of a man's lips, does he become an eater when he accidentally swallows a piece of flesh? I guess the answer to those questions is no. Otherwise there would be many more of those Eaters running around, because a lot of regular psychopaths would probably spruce up their diet in order to achieve extra power. 

I always assumed Khalul had a way of sensing a victim's potential for additional abbilities. And that he only put effort in those recruits he thought would receive more than just enhanced strength, speed and beauty (those with the possibility to change faces or use magic). Perhaps that's not the case though. Perhaps Khalul just decided to recruit amongst the virtuous and hope for the best  

 

I once asked Joe Abercrombie if all Eaters feel remorse for what they do.  He replied "it depends on the Eater."

I agree with your interpretation of Mamun's character.  Likewise, Shickel is disgusted by what she has become, and the anonymous Eater killed by Logan in Adua seems to welcome death. OTOH, other Eaters seem delighted by what they've become (eg The Twins, or the ones who are killed by Yulwei, when they try to hunt Ferro).

I suppose that there could be no worse fate for Kahdia than being converted into an Eater, even if Khalul intended it as an honour.

[Veltigar]

34 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

I don't recall this being suggested. But one of the many legends about it says that it was made by God (Euz?) and given to the valley people by himself.

Oh, I like that explanation better I think. I thought the sword was made by Kanedias because of the following line in The Fools Job: '... - but Craw has to admit it was a disappointing length of metal. There was no flame, no golden light, no distant trumpets or mirrored steel. Just the gentle scrape as long blade came free of stained leather, the flat grey of damp slate, no shine or ornament about it except for the gleam of something engraved down near the plain, dull crosspiece.' 

That sounds an awful lot like the description of Logen's sword in The First Law trilogy. Of course, Kanedias learned it all from Euz, so the fact that he'd base the design of his swords on his father's sword isn't a stretch. And the curse Whirrun talks about would probably suit the sword of God better than anything else. Yeah, I'm going to use that as my head canon from now on  

44 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

Yeah, Bayaz says that a magus named Karnault disappeared "accross the wide ocean". Although I think it's possible that he and the other "absent" magi may have been killed by Bayaz in an attempt to eliminate possible rivals.

 

I never really considered that, but that is such a Bayaz thing to do. Perhaps they started asking questions, like Yulwei did right before Bayaz left him to die in that tower (I wonder if Yulwei might come back in the next trilogy).

46 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

His companion from the begining was clearly the Dogman. But nearly everyone else is said to have joined "ten years ago", so around 566 the band fas already formed. Then there are some quotes that I think are arranged in chronological order:

"He [the Dogman] had been the one to ask Threetrees to surrender, at Uffrith, and been told to piss off. He’d had shit thrown down on him at Heonan. He’d offered duels to Black Dow, and to Tul Duru, and to Harding Grim."

"I [Bethod] wanted to talk with Shama Heartless, but you had to kill him! I tried to strike a deal at Heonan, but you had to climb up and settle your score, and start a dozen more! Peace, you say? I begged you to let me make peace at Uffrith, but you had to fight Threetrees! "

So I'd say that the order would be Dogman, Shama +, Threetrees, Black Dow, Tul Duru, Grim, and Forley; all of them (except perhaps Forley) recruited before MaM in 570.

There's also one quote saying that Logen fought "ten duels", so there are three victims of him we haven't heard about.

Ah, but MaM throws a wrench in your theory about the supposed chronological order of events in those quotes

"'Blacktoe's got a point, though,' said Rattleneck. 'Old Man Yawl won't have it, and there's Black Dow to think on, too, and plenty of others on my side with scores to settle. They might not take to peace."

At this point, Black Dow was clearly not a part of Logen's crew. He was still out there and the duel between the two of them still had to be fought. Only Threetrees and Dogman were mentioned by name as part of Logen's band in the story, but there were others there already, since Threetrees took them out to scout. I just wonder whether Ninefingers had collected everyone but Black Dow at that point or if there were others of the original band that were still left to be recruited  

Of course how this all squares up with the ten year quote, I don't know

46 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I suppose that there could be no worse fate for Kahdia than being converted into an Eater, even if Khalul intended it as an honour.

Hmmm, I don't think Khalul intends it as an honour really  He probably just feels more comfortable making rightous men like Kahdia into Eaters, because that fits with his own conception of himself and his struggle. You know, the just Khalul at the head of his army of rightous men avenges Juvens by slaying Bayaz. It is more in tune with his psychology (assuming that he's got more in common with Mamun than with Bayaz that is) and if you think about it, if Khalul did indeed manage to overcome Bayaz, he'd have the same problem as Bethod had with Logen.

Those Eaters need to keep feeding and they would definitely become a problem if the threat that for some reason united them disappeared (I wonder how Khalul keeps the bad Eaters in check or why there don't seem to have been defections of some of these bad Eaters to Bayaz' side). If you have a army of Mamunlike Eaters, they might choose to end their existence, but the bad Eaters would definitely keep on wreaking havoc.

 

[The hairy bear]

1 hour ago, Veltigar said:

"'Blacktoe's got a point, though,' said Rattleneck. 'Old Man Yawl won't have it, and there's Black Dow to think on, too, and plenty of others on my side with scores to settle. They might not take to peace."

At this point, Black Dow was clearly not a part of Logen's crew. He was still out there and the duel between the two of them still had to be fought. Only Threetrees and Dogman were mentioned by name as part of Logen's band in the story, but there were others there already, since Threetrees took them out to scout. I just wonder whether Ninefingers had collected everyone but Black Dow at that point or if there were others of the original band that were still left to be recruited  

Of course how this all squares up with the ten year quote, I don't know

Oh, I had missed that!!

I've checked, and the ten year quote only refers to Logen, the Dogman and Threetrees. (it's mentioned in Threetrees eulogy, at the end of BTAH). So the other ones could have joined much later, even later than 570.

However, in MaM Bethod asks for the rest of the "flotsam", and the Dogman replies that Threetrees took "them" to scout. If "them" refers to Tul and Grim, then the quote from my previous post is not chronological and Black Dow would be the last of them to join the band.

 

[Ded As Ned]

Well, I just finished re-reading The Blade Itself, and then realized my loaned out copies of the rest of the original trilogy were never returned... so I had to go and order new copies again of the remaining First Law books.  In the meantime while waiting for those to arrive, I received the Shattered Sea trilogy for Christmas and I'm enjoying book 1 so far. Only 100 pages in but it's got me.  All good news to @Joe Abercrombie's coffers   

[AncalagonTheBlack]

On 1/3/2017 at 7:07 AM, Veltigar said:

I'm definitely going to reread The Heroes and Red Country when I find the time

hah.i just finished a reread of both books last week,just tore through them.The fact that i still like Red Country more than The Heroes is borne out by my e-reader stats: Finished RC in 8 hours (355 w/min) and TH in 13 hours (269 w/min).

I'm sad we won't get more Cosca. A drink,a drink,a drink!

[Jerry Drake]

It's already mentioned in Heroes that Whirrun's Father of Swords is a dull looking sword with a small mark near the hilt, so I would say that it definitely came from the same place as the ones Logen found in The First Law and later still in the Red Country.

I was re-reading Red Country and found an interesting link with something mentioned here before regarding Ninefingers. Someone suggested how he is a demon, and in a couple of places it is mentioned how the carnage Lamb makes (or made in the years before) resembles the horrors Glustrod brought from hell. To top it all off, someone mentions how 'Dragon People aren't really the demons they were made out to be' to which Lamb replies how only demons there are the ones you bring with yourself (both, I suppose, as in within yourself and as part of the fellowship).

And since we're casting people for characters, I can't imagine anyone else playing Ninefingers apart from Sean Bean. Either his younger incarnation from "When Saturday Comes" for the First Law trilogy or as he is now for Lamb from the Red Country. I suppose he could still plausibly play 'younger' Logen even today, though it is a bit of a stretch.

Sean Pertwee could make a good Black Dow too, I think, especially in The Heroes.

[Brother Longfoot]

Bean would be a pretty good choice acting-wise, but I think lookswise, he's way too pretty (for lack of a better word) to play Logen.  Logen is supposed to look hulking and thuggish, with his looks suffering from years of fighting.

I had thought of Bean though for Bethod, to underscore his being sort of an evil Aragorn/person who "should have been a hero".

Also, my earlier post got borked but had commented in terms of characterization of the stories not lining up that I had a hard time reconciling the cringing worm Rews of "A Beautiful Bastard" with the presentation of Rews in the original trilogy, in which he's remembered by others as the life of the party.

[Kindly Old Man]

On 12/23/2016 at 8:53 AM, Let's Get Kraken said:

I can't really see Manu Bennett as Dow. He's not overtly scummy enough.

It's interesting you should say this, because one of the lines I can always hear in Manu Bennett's voice is the one where they're arguing about something and he says "might be my name's blacker than I deserve!" I've always thought that was kind of the essence of Dow's character, a guy with a really evil reputation who is actually not any better or worse than most of the other characters we see. After all, we hear that he is incredibly evil, but what do we actually see him do? He kills people fairly casually, but so does every Northern character. He betrays Logen, but after Made a Monster it is clear that Logen is definitely more evil than Dow, just like Dow said. He fights Calder in the circle, but Calder is a scummy, cowardly, backstabbing POS who probably deserved worse. He wages war often, but when Finree is captured, he sends her back with an offer of peace; war is only prolonged because it suits Bayaz' purpose. Sometimes I think it would be interesting to have seen a Dow POV, but other times I think it would just be like Logen lite. In any case I think he's more than just a scumbag, and the guy who stabbed Oliver Queen's mother in front of him should be more than up to the task.

As far as directors go, what about Edgar Wright? He's got some good action chops, and also the comedic sensibility to pull off all of the humor in the books.

[Jerry Drake]

I think that Black Dow's point of view would more resemble Curnden Craw's than Logen's. Obvioulsy, not in the "do-what's-right, straight edge, old school" train of thought. I find that Dow got thrust into all the fighting like any other character, possibly similar to how Wonderful got started, but he has accepted what he became and acts accordingly. Bloody, messy, backstabbing, but aren't all of them just that? Dow just doesn't feel the need to sugar-coat their business with some grand delusions how what they do is 'right' or straight-edge or whatever. It just is. Where Craw is always clinging to the ideal of him being an ordinary person, a carpenter, and not the hired killer, Dow is on the other side of the coin, he made peace with who he is and what he has become, or at least he keeps that outward persona.

Similar to how Alfie Solomons demands of Tommy Shelby to acknowledge that he did much worse to multitude of innocent people than using his son as a hostage until he does as he is told in the last season of Peaky Blinders.

[Kindly Old Man]

15 minutes ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Well, Dow also has a thing for burning people alive. So there's that. And wasn't he bragging to Dogman about how he was going to rape what's her name in BtaH?

But when I said scummy I didn't necessarily mean evil. More shady. Bennet plays the warrior type really well, but I don't see him being the guy to cut someone's throat in their sleep. And that's who Dow really is.

Does he actually ever burn anyone alive, or do people just say he does that?  And yeah, he says some nasty stuff, but what does he do? That was kind of my whole point.

[Kindly Old Man]

2 minutes ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

He ties up some of Bethod's soldiers after they surrender and burns them alive in TLAoK.

Hm I didn't remember that at all. Still, I'm not going to concede my point. This is the Internet.

[Jerry Drake]

27 minutes ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Well, Dow also has a thing for burning people alive. So there's that. And wasn't he bragging to Dogman about how he was going to rape what's her name in BtaH?

But when I said scummy I didn't necessarily mean evil. More shady. Bennet plays the warrior type really well, but I don't see him being the guy to cut someone's throat in their sleep. And that's who Dow really is.

Well true, of course, but I never claimed he was clean-as-a-whistle, honorable rogue. I see him as someone who consciously picks the more violent option, either to enhance his reputation and/or to instill fear in people around him, friends or enemies, ideally both. He says as much to Craw on the night before he fights Calder. Sort of mindful violence of the type that Cosca says is worse than his preferred mindless one.

[Veltigar]

Just finished The Heroes. It was the first time I reread that novel and it was quite the experience. I remembered it as being a bloody great piece of literature, but it definitely exceeded my expectations. That doesn't often happen, I can tell you that for sure. There was a lot of stuff that I had forgotten, so it had the added benefit of feeling unbelievably exciting for a reread.

The novel itself is tense, gripping and filled to the brim with fascinating characters. You really can't praise this book enough really. I'm really sad to have lost Black Dow though, he was kind of like my Bobba Fett character from the first trilogy. Mainly because I read the first trilogy in my own language and due to a coincidence of language his name sounds poetic as hell translated to my native tongue. Anyway, I digress, back to praising the Heroes.

The setting is just so damn rich. I really do love The North. Never much cared for the other places (The Far Country and Dagoska were nice I suppose. I did hate Styria), but that place really is the gift that keeps on giving. It feels suitably fractured and small for the type of men and society that is depicted in it. I personally think it's one of the best fantasy settings out there.    

The characters are also terribly exciting. None of them are bland, which is something I wish I could say for more books (fantasy or otherwise). Even Calder, the character I wanted to punch in the face the most isn't boring. I also loved how this book gives us glimpses of other characters from previous books. It's really well done. I love how Rudd Threetrees' name is still a beacon of loyalty and doing things the right way. Or how people still shit themselves when they hear the Bloody-Nine's name. The way minor characters like Marshall Pouder, Bremer dan Gorst and General Jalenhorm have evolved since the first trilogy is so well done. I never did think that Marshall Pouder would turn out to be such a moral man, or that Gorst had so much rage seething beneath the surface or that Jalenhorm would grow into such a good man. And the way they were developed made complete sense, at least to me. I could write more, but I have some work I need to do. I hope future books in this world will be as damn great as this one. Truly a towering achievement.

On 6-1-2017 at 11:50 AM, AncalagonTheBlack said:

I'm sad we won't get more Cosca. A drink,a drink,a drink!

 Back to the mud. Just like

Spoiler

Black Dow, Threetrees, Grim, Tul Duru, Forley, Whirun, Jalenhorm, West, Brack-y-Drain, Faithful Capri, Mamun, Fenris the Feared, Frost, Severard and so many other great characters 

On 6-1-2017 at 2:16 PM, ruzvelt said:

It's already mentioned in Heroes that Whirrun's Father of Swords is a dull looking sword with a small mark near the hilt, so I would say that it definitely came from the same place as the ones Logen found in The First Law and later still in the Red Country.

Not necessarily though  Logen's sword was clearly made by Kanedias. However, as @thehairybear points out, there is another person who could have forged the Highest and the Lowest. None other than Euz himself, who divided his gifts over all his sons. And the Dawn Razor is said to have been Gods own blade once upon a time  Kanedias is more likely, but Euz' is even cooler imo  

[Jerry Drake]

Did Craw bury the sword with Whirrun in the end? I can't remember that he did, he just put them both on the cart and started to drive off, I can't remember him actually burying the two.

[Consigliere]

37 minutes ago, ruzvelt said:

Did Craw bury the sword with Whirrun in the end? I can't remember that he did, he just put them both on the cart and started to drive off, I can't remember him actually burying the two.

We don't actually read about Craw burying Whirrun with the sword but I assume that he did since that is what Whirrun asked him to do.

[Jerry Drake]

25 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

We don't actually read about Craw burying Whirrun with the sword but I assume that he did since that is what Whirrun asked him to do.

Well he may have been prevented, though he might mention that in that later chapter when Hardbread comes to pick him up to work for Calder again. He might want to keep it a secret though, if he allowed the sword to be taken from him. No way to know really, especially if you convince yourself that the sword will resurface again sometime, like I did.

[polishgenius]

On 1/8/2017 at 1:02 PM, ruzvelt said:

I think that Black Dow's point of view would more resemble Curnden Craw's than Logen's. Obvioulsy, not in the "do-what's-right, straight edge, old school" train of thought. I find that Dow got thrust into all the fighting like any other character, possibly similar to how Wonderful got started, but he has accepted what he became and acts accordingly. Bloody, messy, backstabbing, but aren't all of them just that? Dow just doesn't feel the need to sugar-coat their business with some grand delusions how what they do is 'right' or straight-edge or whatever. It just is. Where Craw is always clinging to the ideal of him being an ordinary person, a carpenter, and not the hired killer, Dow is on the other side of the coin, he made peace with who he is and what he has become, or at least he keeps that outward persona.

 

 

I've always maintained that, more than this, Dow is in many ways less of a scumbag than most of his peers, but he plays up his reputation to get shit done. Like, if I recall, when he takes the kingship he doesn't really want it, he just knows that Logen having it would be disastrous for the North. 

That's not to say he's not a scumbag at all, but a lot of it is theater. 

[SeanF]

On ‎1‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 2:32 PM, Kindly Old Man said:

Does he actually ever burn anyone alive, or do people just say he does that?  And yeah, he says some nasty stuff, but what does he do? That was kind of my whole point.

It was a surprise attack at night that nearly succeeded. Three attackers made the mistake of surrendering.  Dow trussed them up on the ramparts, poured oil over them, and then set them alight one after the other, so the attackers would hear their screams going on for a long time.

There's no sign that the Dogman, or Logen, or the others objected.  The fight had become completely ruthless at that point. The intention was to deter any future night attacks. I don't know if Dow makes a habit of burning people alive.

By and large, most of Dow's victims in the trilogy get what's coming to them. 

[BigFatCoward]

On 01/01/2017 at 10:26 AM, Jussi said:

14 hours ago, Veltigar said:

The way minor characters like Marshall Pouder, Bremer dan Gorst and General Jalenhorm have evolved since the first trilogy is so well done. I never did think that Marshall Pouder would turn out to be such a moral man

 That would be a surprise, since Poulder is brown bread with his guts hanging out at the end of LAOK.