Troublesome connection between Tully and Qoherys

[The Wondering Wolf]

In 7 AC Lord Quenton Qoherys married Lord Edmyn Tully's daughter and Edmyn " began his two years as Hand of the King, ending when he resigned the office and returned to Riverrun and his family". And in 9 AC, as well, Lord Quenton died and his grandson Gorgon took over Harrenhal (Radio Westeros. E04 - A WorldCon of Ice and Fire, 44:33). Obviously Gorgon wasn't born from the Qoherys Tully union. We know that the marriage "would prove a troublesome connection, alleviated only by the swift, sad end of House Qoherys". So do you think that Edmyn resigning the handship in the same year Quenton died in is just coincidence? And were these troubles just due to the misbehaving of a mighty bannerman or do you see the possibility for some kind of inheritage issue? Maybe Quenton's wife was pregnant at the time of her husband's death and Gorgon was just a grandson through the female line?

[Lemon of Lemonwood]

I think you are slightly mistaken when it comes to chronology.While Edmyn Tully did indeed resign his Handship in 9 AC, his daughter and Quenton Quoherys probably married around 1AC or 2 AC,otherwise it wouldn't be possible to have a grandson known for his lust by 37AC.

Of course, he could have married the Tully daughter before the Conquest, but I find it unlikely that a powerfull lord would give his daughter to the master-at-arms of a remote castle with no particular lineage. Also, Gargon could come from the child of a previous marriage, but since the connection is marked to have been a troublesome one for the Tullys, I believe that Gargon had Tully blood and his scandalous behavior and eventual death prooved troublesome for his cousins and overlord

As to why he resignned, we have no information so far. Maybe he had objections to the dornish campaign.

[The Wondering Wolf]

Quote

Lord Edmyn did much to repair the damage that Harren had left behind him. New ties were forged, as when the new-made Lord Quenton Qoherys—once master-at-arms at Dragonstone, and by then lord of ruined Harrenhal and its sizable lands—took Lord Tully's daughter to wife. (Though in later years this would prove a troublesome connection, alleviated only by the swift, sad end of House Qoherys). It was in 7 AC, as well, that Lord Edmyn began his two years as Hand of the King, ending when he resigned the office and returned to Riverrun and his family. (The World of Ice and Fire, House Tully)

I'm sure that means the marriage took place in 7 AC, the same year Edmyn was made Hand.

And we know that Gorgon, grandson of Quenton, took over Harrenhal after Quenton's death in 9 AC (that's from the podcast dealing with an excerpt from Fire and Blood). So Gorgon can't be a descendant from that Tully Qoherys union, anyway.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

2 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

I'm sure that means the marriage took place in 7 AC, the same year Edmyn was made Hand.

Agreed.

2 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

And we know that Gorgon, grandson of Quenton, took over Harrenhal after Quenton's death in 9 AC (that's from the podcast dealing with an excerpt from Fire and Blood). So Gorgon can't be a descendant from that Tully Qoherys union, anyway.

Where do they say Quenton died in 9 AC?

[The Wondering Wolf]

2 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Where do they say Quenton died in 9 AC?

Start listening at 44:38.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Just now, The Wondering Wolf said:

Start listening at 44:38.

I'm sorry, I meant, what is the source? I can't find any notes or reports from a reading, or any text, stating such a fact.

[The Wondering Wolf]

1 minute ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

I'm sorry, I meant, what is the source? I can't find any notes or reports from a reading, or any text, stating such a fact.

It was the Sons of the Dragon Reading at LonCon, the same reading @Lord Varys visited. Maybe he remembers such a date?

[direpupy]

Apart from the radio westeros link you provide there does not seem to be any other source for this, and by the looks of the date of the whole podcast this was before TWoIaF came out so maybe it never made it into the finished book for some reason. Perhaps even because they figured out this would be a continuity error in the light of the supposed trouble for house Tully.

[Lord Varys]

Lord Quenton Qoherys, Aegon's 'old master-of-arms', died indeed in 9 AC according to 'The Sons of the Dragon'. He fell off his horse.

The part of Quenton being Aegon's old master-of-arms seem to underline the fact that the man wasn't exactly exactly young at that time. The fact that he already had a grandson also attests to that. One assumes that Quenton's son had died either during the Conquest or in Dorne, or of some other cause.

I guess part of the trouble with Gorgon and the Tully-Qoherys marriage could involve Gorgon's step-grandmother eventually becoming his mistress. But I'm just speculating here. The Tully-Qoherys marriage wasn't mentioned in the 'The Sons of the Dragon' reading.

By the way, the way things are chronologically structured in 37 AC we have Aenys I making a royal progress to Oldtown via Riverrun, Lannisport, and Highgarden after he had been crowned on Dragonstone and claimed the Iron Throne on Aegon's High Hill (at this point only the cellars of the Red Keep had been built). Aenys is then crowned and anointed again at Oldtown, by the High Septon - like his father was before him - and the High Septon presents him with his elaborate golden crown (which actually has figurines of the Seven inlaid in it).

Now, if I remember correctly Yandel mentions that Aenys I was at Riverrun as guest of Lord Tully when the news about Harren the Red reached him. That would have been during said royal progress. This puts things into perspective - after Aenys had 'sort of dealt' with Harren (sent some Rivermen to Harrenhal only to find that Harren had turned to banditry again) the progress continued to Lannisport, Highgarden, and Oldtown for the coronation. Alyssa Velaryon and all of the children accompanied Aenys while Maegor and Visenya apparently remained either on Dragonstone or at KL (I guess Maegor spent that time with Balerion and his effort to claim him - one wonders how long that took him...).

The other three pretenders - Jonos the Kinslayer, Lodos, and the Vulture King - only make themselves known after Aenys has returned to KL (which must have been months later, considering that it would have been quite a march from Riverrun to Oldtown and back to the capital.

This suggests the Conqueror died, most likely, early in the year 37 AC and the fallout between Aenys and Maegor occurred late in 39 AC (because we learn that Aenys and Maegor had ruled the Realm together amicably for 'the better part of two years'). This also fits well with the fact that Maegor was only exiled to Pentos in 40 AC, about half a year after the polygamy crisis began.

16 minutes ago, direpupy said:

Apart from the radio westeros link you provide there does not seem to be any other source for this, and by the looks of the date of the whole podcast this was before TWoIaF came out so maybe it never made it into the finished book for some reason. Perhaps even because they figured out this would be a continuity error in the light of the supposed trouble for house Tully.

There are details from George's Gyldayn texts that have been changed during the production process of TWoIaF, we see this most notably with the Gerardys paradox. The final decision was to not make the Dragonstonian maester Gerardys because that would have meant that the guy TPatQ introduced to us as Orwyle was Gerardys. Which he wasn't in that story. But in TRP he was Gerardys (the guy with the great healing skills who also amputated Viserys' fingers) whereas Yandel lists that guy - quite correctly - as Orwyle.

Who the real Gerardys now is we do not know at all but he isn't Orwyle.

A similar thing seems to have happened with the back story of the 'Prince of Dragonstone' title. 'The Sons of the Dragon' has that as Maegor's title throughout his entire life, explaining it as the result of Maegor always hanging out with his mother on Dragonstone whereas Aenys and Aegon were either at court or on their progresses through the Realm. Yandel names Aenys as Prince of Dragonstone prior to his ascension in 37 AC - and according to Ran that is not a mistake. So it might be that the concept changed and Maegor no longer was called the Prince of Dragonstone because he spent so much time on the island. This might be connected to a change in the personality of Aegon I. Yandel makes it clear in his account on the Conqueror's reign that Dragonstone remained the favorite place of the king and that he spent as much time as he could there.

But Maegor was also the Prince of Dragonstone during the reign of Aenys I until such time as Aenys decided to take that title away from Maegor and grant it to Prince Aegon during the latter's wedding feast in 41 AC. On that 'The Sons of the Dragon' and Yandel agree. I guess we'll have to go with the assumption that the Prince of Dragonstone was at that time not yet established as the title of the Heir Apparent, and that Aenys decided to grant Dragonstone to his brother Maegor as his own seat and lordship when he ascended the throne. When they had their fallout and Maegor was exiled Aenys changed his mind and gave the island to Aegon. But Prince Aegon is unquestionably Aenys' heir throughout his reign (and has been long before that the second in line to the Iron Throne) so Aenys' decision to grant Maegor the title 'Prince of Dragonstone' had most likely nothing to do with him making a decision who should succeed him.

Aside from that trivial detail 'The Sons of the Dragon' consists of a much longer and more detailed version of events described by Yandel in TWoIaF. Just as TPatQ and TRP are in parts longer versions of the reigns of Viserys I and Aegon II. Details that were cut were mostly/exclusively cut for space. Due to the unique production process of this book there is no reason to assume that stuff that didn't make it in was considered to be 'bad writing' or 'irrelevant plot' or something like that. 

There is of course a chance that details are going to change. After all, nothing that's not published is set in stone (and even published stuff can be changed). TWoIaF has framed things rather tightly already. For instance, the squire of Alyn Stokeworth who killed Harren the Red is not mentioned by name in TWoIaF. Therefore his name could still change (although that's not very likely) but the fact that Harren the Red was killed by that guy and that Alyn Stokeworth was the Hand of Aenys (and the last Hand of the Conqueror, too, by the way) is not going to change. I would not expect many changes in the material George has already written on the Targaryen kings. The later reigns are another matter. We got very little new/detailed information on the reigns from Aegon III to Aegon V (especially not about the reigns of Aerys I, Maekar I, and Aegon V). George is still comparatively free to change stuff as he sees fit in that time period. And that was clearly the intention. It is certainly no coincidence that we don't even know the name of Egg's Hand or his major opponent. And, of course, the blank spots in the family tree might not be so blank after all - Daella, Rhae, Vaella, Maegor, Duncan and Jenny might all turn out to have had children of their own. For Daella and Rhae this is effectively confirmed anyway.

[The Wondering Wolf]

8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Lord Quenton Qoherys, Aegon's 'old master-of-arms', died indeed in 9 AC according to 'The Sons of the Dragon'. He fell off his horse.

Thanks a lot for confirming it. And for the massive input, appreciated as always.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Lord Quenton Qoherys, Aegon's 'old master-of-arms', died indeed in 9 AC according to 'The Sons of the Dragon'. He fell off his horse.

Thanks for the confirmation! But that wasn't in your notes, was it? So, did the info came from the LonCon reading, or from another reading, can you recall?

[Lemon of Lemonwood]

If Lord Varys speaks, I stay silent.

It just still seems strange to me that Lord Tully would marry his daughter  to an old lord with children of his own already, and why the marriage would proove troublesome for the Tullys. Did Quenton have a child with his Tully wife before he died and he/she fought with Gargon for the inheritance? Did we get an Annara/Black Walder scandalous situation with step-grandmother and step-grandson?

[Lord Varys]

9 hours ago, Lemon of Lemonwood said:

If Lord Varys speaks, I stay silent.

It just still seems strange to me that Lord Tully would marry his daughter  to an old lord with children of his own already, and why the marriage would proove troublesome for the Tullys. Did Quenton have a child with his Tully wife before he died and he/she fought with Gargon for the inheritance? Did we get an Annara/Black Walder scandalous situation with step-grandmother and step-grandson?

I don't know any details about the troubles.

How old Quenton was when he died we do not know. He could only have been in his forties or early fifties. We don't know that Gargon the Guest was already a man grown when he became Lord of Harrenhal. In fact, it is more likely his lusty appetites developed only overtime. After all, he was Lord of Harrenhal for nearly thirty years. One should assume that his behavior would have caused problems long before Aegon's death if that all began around the time he became lord.

We do know is that Edmyn Tully had quite a few daughters - four, if I remember correctly - which is mentioned in the history of the Conquest by Black Harren himself. They seem to have been all unmarried during the Conquest and one of the younger girls may have ended up as Quenton's wife. That is not as strange as it might seems in light of the marriages Queen Rhaenys arranged, not to mention Tully's possibly ambition to strengthen his connections to the Targaryen family by any means possible. Keep in mind that Ser Quenton Qoherys most likely was most likely pretty dear to Aegon and Visenya. He would have been the guy who trained them at arms and it is quite clear that this guy got the biggest reward of all of the Targaryen followers (Orys Baratheon possibly excluded - but then, we don't know if Storm's End or Harrenhal has larger incomes).

'The Sons of the Dragon' gives a detailed account what exactly Harren the Red and his goons did to Gargon but any other members of House Qoherys aren't mentioned. So it is difficult to say what had happened to the Tully bride - if she was still alive at that point - or whether there were any legitimate or illegitimate Qoherys descendants (either through the Tully girl, Gargon himself, or any siblings Gargon might have had).

But I guess in any case Gargon the Guest's mere existence and reputation would have been a constant nuisance for the Tullys, and the connection Gargon may or may not have retained to court might have made it difficult to intervene on behalf of Gargon's smallfolk and vassals (who all suffered from those visits during weddings).