Any textual evidence of azhor ahai and tptwp being one and the same?

[Doloresi]

Is see lots of comments/threads talking about them being the same person and different entities altogether. Is there any textual evidence proving either way?

[John Suburbs]

Well, AA is an ancient figure while the PtwP is a savior who is coming in the future. So does that mean it will be AA reborn? We'll have to wait and see.

I think Mel uses the two terms interchangeably, but it's hard to tell whether she is speaking from direct knowledge or is just fudging the tales to put it in terms that impress people like Maester Aemon. Both Mel and Aemon say AA reborn and tPtwP respectively will be born of salt and smoke.

It could be that AA, tPtwP and the Last Hero will all come again (or indeed, are already here) and form the three heads of the dragon.

[Alaynsa Starne]

Aemon conflates the two, and if I remember correctly, he was in correspondance with Rhaegar about tpwwp. So he's likely done extensive research on the topic. 

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

In my opinion I don't think they are the same but this wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong.

[The Drunkard]

"You are he who must stand against the Other. The one whose coming was prophesied five thousand years ago. The red comet was your herald. You are the prince that was promised, and if you fail the world fails with you."

- Melisandre to Stannis

"It is the war for the dawn you speak of, my lady. But where is the prince that was promised?"

"He stands before you," Melisandre declared, "though you do not have the eyes to see. Stannis Baratheon is Azor Ahai come again, the warrior of fire. In him the prophecies are fulfilled. The red comet blazed across the sky to herald his coming, and he bears Lightbringer, the red sword of heroes."

- Aemon and Mel

"It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought . . . the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet."

- Aemon to Sam

Mel uses the terms interchangeably, and both she and Aemon believe the salt, smoke and comet prophecy refers to the same figure. The only difference seems to be that the Red Religion assumes TPTWP will be a reincarnation of their original hero, hence "Azor Ahai come again".

[Lady Melody]

I've always took it that they aren't the same, there would be three heads of the dragon, three riders, three Hero's, AA (originating in Essos- Dany) tptwp (originating in the South - Tyrion?) And the last hero (originating in the north - Jon)

Over centuries the stories have been muddled and melded by folklore, so even the most learned of maesters aren't sure if it's 1, 2 or 3. But the number 3 has been beat into US at this stage, so why wouldn't it be? 

Danys Nissa Nissa was Khal Drogo. He had to die and be burnt for her "light bringer" to be created, Drogon. 

The last hero united the Nights Watch against the white walkers and defeated them (remember in the show, the lingering look the nights king gave to Jon, a flicker of recognition maybe?)

Tptwp is a harder one. I'm a firm believer that tyrion is the third head, making him a son of Aerys, a prince. He is he balance between Danys fire and Jon's ice. There's no mention of tptwp wielding a sword, indicating he may be a tactical rather than physical leader. At some point, Rhaegar became convinced he was tptwp, but we don't know why. Did he discover it would be a son of Aerys? 

[Doloresi]

This is what i'm talking about, certain characters in the books talk about tptwp and aar being one and the same. 

According to the wiki, the signs for tptwp are as follows:

• The birth of a male child - a prince. (erroneous according to Maester Aemon, as High Valyrian is a gender-neutral language)
• The prince is of the blood of the dragon.^[1]
• Born amidst smoke.^[1][5]
• Born amidst salt.^[1][5]
• A bleeding star in the skies.^[1] (also mentioned is being born beneath a bleeding star^[5])
• Possibly the return of dragons (when he was a boy, Aegon V Targaryen recalled that King Aerys I read about the return of dragons in a prophecy.)

Whereas the Azor Ahai prophecy reads:

There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him

Now the only thing these two prophecies have in common is the bleeding star, which could just mean that they will come to pass within the same time frame (how often do stars bleed above Planetos). One speaks of someone who will herald the return of the dragons and possibly the Targ dynasty, the other is a warrior who will fight off the darkness.

 

[Mayura]

In this video from the show's season 2 extras, you can hear GRRM talking about TPTWP and Azor Ahai as being the same person: 

 

[Drogonthedread]

1 hour ago, Doloresi said:

This is what i'm talking about, certain characters in the books talk about tptwp and aar being one and the same. 

According to the wiki, the signs for tptwp are as follows:

• The birth of a male child - a prince. (erroneous according to Maester Aemon, as High Valyrian is a gender-neutral language)
• The prince is of the blood of the dragon.^[1]
• Born amidst smoke.^[1][5]
• Born amidst salt.^[1][5]
• A bleeding star in the skies.^[1] (also mentioned is being born beneath a bleeding star^[5])
• Possibly the return of dragons (when he was a boy, Aegon V Targaryen recalled that King Aerys I read about the return of dragons in a prophecy.)

Whereas the Azor Ahai prophecy reads:

There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him

Now the only thing these two prophecies have in common is the bleeding star, which could just mean that they will come to pass within the same time frame (how often do stars bleed above Planetos). One speaks of someone who will herald the return of the dragons and possibly the Targ dynasty, the other is a warrior who will fight off the darkness.

 

You must have missed the born amidst salt and smoke as well .

 

I believe there exists three versions of same prophecy ...the versions being AAR and TPTWP and TSWMTW all these three comes from ancient prophecy in Asshai ..and talks about a promised Prince. 

And this is where I believe the three heads of the dragon comes to play ..

A dragon was promised .meaning a targ who will be a dragon will fulfill all the three versions of prophecy ...

Now if only we have a character who is associated with all the three aspects of prophecy 

[OuttaOldtown]

I question them being the same, while the prophecy of AA is widely know by many very little is known about TPtwP aside from its possible connection to AA. Mel is not a reliable source imo, a dying Aemon is also not proof, if fact Aemon leads us in two different directions, expresses that he believes its Dany yet he has Jon read a passage about AA. Until I see whatever it is Rhaegar read as a boy & then decided he must be a warrior I think all we have is opinions, there's nothing definitive in the text..

[Drogonthedread]

12 minutes ago, OuttaOldtown said:

I question them being the same, while the prophecy of AA is widely know by many very little is known about TPtwP aside from its possible connection to AA. Mel is not a reliable source imo, a dying Aemon is also not proof, if fact Aemon leads us in two different directions, expresses that he believes its Dany yet he has Jon read a passage about AA. Until I see whatever it is Rhaegar read as a boy & then decided he must be a warrior I think all we have is opinions, there's nothing definitive in the text..

Well what makes you think that telling Jon to read the books mean he is believing in him as AAr .he may ask Jon to read because he will come to know that stannis is not the one and able to identify the real one when she comes. .

 

Throughout ADWD we see how Jon doubts stannis with lightbringer not being warm and how he is not born at dragon stone only lord of dragon stone and how he mentions dragons will be a lot of help at the wall and all .

[OuttaOldtown]

11 minutes ago, Drogonthedread said:

Well what makes you think that telling Jon to read the books mean he is believing in him as AAr .he may ask Jon to read because he will come to know that stannis is not the one and able to identify the real one when she comes. .

 

Throughout ADWD we see how Jon doubts stannis with lightbringer not being warm and how he is not born at dragon stone only lord of dragon stone and how he mentions dragons will be a lot of help at the wall and all .

But then Aemon says his to Sam:

"Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it."

[Drogonthedread]

5 minutes ago, OuttaOldtown said:

But then Aemon says his to Sam:

"Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it."

Yeah because he learns about dany after leaving wall...if he knew at wall he would have told Jon about dany and how she is needed help like he told to Sam..my point still stands aemon asking Jon to read the books does not make Jon as AAr...aemon is still searching for the one and once he hears the tale of daenerys he makes the connection ..

What Aemon says is true right nothing can be called false or made fit ...dany did born amidst salt and smoke and did bring back the dragons ...

[OuttaOldtown]

7 minutes ago, Drogonthedread said:

Yeah because he learns about dany after leaving wall...if he knew at wall he would have told Jon about dany and how she is needed help like he told to Sam..my point still stands aemon asking Jon to read the books does not make Jon as AAr...aemon is still searching for the one and once he hears the tale of daenerys he makes the connection ..

What Aemon says is true right nothing can be called false or made fit ...dany did born amidst salt and smoke and did bring back the dragons ...

Of course, but that's the point, there's more uncertainty than facts..

[aryagonnakill#2]

10 hours ago, Lady Melody said:

I've always took it that they aren't the same, there would be three heads of the dragon, three riders, three Hero's, AA (originating in Essos- Dany) tptwp (originating in the South - Tyrion?) And the last hero (originating in the north - Jon)

Over centuries the stories have been muddled and melded by folklore, so even the most learned of maesters aren't sure if it's 1, 2 or 3. But the number 3 has been beat into US at this stage, so why wouldn't it be? 

Danys Nissa Nissa was Khal Drogo. He had to die and be burnt for her "light bringer" to be created, Drogon. 

The last hero united the Nights Watch against the white walkers and defeated them (remember in the show, the lingering look the nights king gave to Jon, a flicker of recognition maybe?)

Tptwp is a harder one. I'm a firm believer that tyrion is the third head, making him a son of Aerys, a prince. He is he balance between Danys fire and Jon's ice. There's no mention of tptwp wielding a sword, indicating he may be a tactical rather than physical leader. At some point, Rhaegar became convinced he was tptwp, but we don't know why. Did he discover it would be a son of Aerys? 

Not directly, but Rhaegar showed up in the yard one morning wearing armor and said "apparently I must be a warrior".