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Possible marriage


Sekara

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Hey guys,

as a result of  R+L=J, what seems to be true, let's wait till next week, I'm just wondering, if Jon and Sansa could marry to be Lord and Lady Stark - because I really don't think that Jon is supposed to be king of Westeros. Together they would have a strong claim to the North.

Why do I think so?

It is revealed, that GRRM planned the plot at the very beginning very different - with Jon and Tyrion fight for Arya's love. Sansa is actually somehow marry to Tyrion.

So, do you think, that Martin just switches the sisters?

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1 hour ago, Le Cygne said:

No, Martin didn't just switch the sisters.

This, basically. Martin has consistently touched on Jon and Arya's relationship since book 1, so no, I do not think he switched them. Of course, the show is more vague, and the writers may have decided to switch things up. So time will tell. But honestly, if Jon had to marry one of his 'sisters', it would be Arya. 

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not gonna happen in the books and on the show, Bran is leaving that cave and he is going home. Winterfell and the North is his. Jon can have the Iron Throne it he can take it, other than that, hands off Winterfell unless Bran and Rickon are both dead without issue.

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5 hours ago, Sekara said:

Hey guys,

as a result of  R+L=J, what seems to be true, let's wait till next week, I'm just wondering, if Jon and Sansa could marry to be Lord and Lady Stark - because I really don't think that Jon is supposed to be king of Westeros. Together they would have a strong claim to the North.

Why do I think so?

It is revealed, that GRRM planned the plot at the very beginning very different - with Jon and Tyrion fight for Arya's love. Sansa is actually somehow marry to Tyrion.

So, do you think, that Martin just switches the sisters?

There's a thread on it where its mentioned somewhere.  Myself,  I think its possible,  but its not as simple as just substituting Sansa for Arya.  The most likely way it would happen would be as a result of the political implications of Sansa rising to Queen of the North.  The very short version: the northern lords would likely want Sansa to produce an heir as a condition of backing her claim,  which, if anyone else was the father,  would be certain to end the Stark dynasty,   while Lady/Queen Sansa gives Jon political legitimacy with regards to recruiting the rest of Westeros to fight the Others.  

Before someone gets all bent out of shape,  I'm not necessarily saying it will happen,  but that I can see how it could happen.  

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6 hours ago, Sekara said:

Hey guys,

as a result of  R+L=J, what seems to be true, let's wait till next week, I'm just wondering, if Jon and Sansa could marry to be Lord and Lady Stark - because I really don't think that Jon is supposed to be king of Westeros. Together they would have a strong claim to the North.

Why do I think so?

It is revealed, that GRRM planned the plot at the very beginning very different - with Jon and Tyrion fight for Arya's love. Sansa is actually somehow marry to Tyrion.

So, do you think, that Martin just switches the sisters?

I don't think he'll switch the sisters, especially since his initial plan ranked Arya far above Sansa in importance. Arya was one of the "core characters" in the 1993 outline; Sansa was not. Sansa and Arya are not interchangeable, and GRRM never saw them as interchangeable. Sansa existed in 1993 when GRRM planned a Jon/Arya/Tyrion love triangle, and she had some of the features of ASOIAF Sansa (paired with Joffrey, stuck with the Lannisters, of "dubious loyalty," etc.), just as Outline Arya has some of the features of ASOIAF Arya (sword named Needle, bond with Jon). We also know that Outline Sansa has a kid Outline Jaime murders to claim the throne, with no further mention of her after that, so it's possible that Outline Sansa was meant to die in King's Landing (since it sounds like an Elia/Aegon situation).

My (hot?) take on Jon is that if he marries anyone, it will be Arya.

I think Sansa and Tyrion's marriage in ASOIAF was something GRRM thought up while writing ASOIAF and a product of GRRM's "gardener" approach where he comes up with stuff organically as he's writing and runs with it, but I don't have anything to support that. 

As for the suggestion that Sansa and Jon would have a strong claim "together," TV Sansa hasn't been disinherited, and in any event ASOIAF Jon is a strong supporter of Sansa's claim. Sansa doesn't need to marry Jon to get his help in supporting the North, any more than Alys Karstark needed to marry Jon to get his help and protection. The siblings (cousins, whatever) can help and support each other without needing to marry to do it. I don't think Sansa will end up with Winterfell, although she may hold it for a time. Not sure where Sansa winds up, actually, but my best money is on "dead."

With that said, TV Sansa is currently headed to Castle Black, and TV Jon is very much alive, so it seems very likely that Jon and Sansa will reunite before Jon and Arya do. The argument from Jon/Sansa fans was that Outline Jon and Arya fell in love at the Wall, and that with so little time left in the show, the endgame pairings need to be set up pretty soon, so if Jon and Sansa are interacting now, there's a good chance that they're an endgame pairing and will fall in love just like Outline Jon and Arya did. I'm not convinced, for the reasons I've said, but we'll see; if Jon and Sansa in the show start blushing and making cow eyes at each other when they reunite, we'll have a strong hint as to where the writers are going.

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Another thing I don't believe Jon and Sansa will get marry is that everyone knows they are sibling and if both get marry, then this would cause a huge scandal. Jon won't have proofs to claim himself as Rhaegar's bastard.

i don't think Jon is going to marry either of his sisters/cousins, even if it was Arya intended in the original outline. GRMM change a lot of things from his original plan.

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For Jon to be ever able to marry either of his sisters, everybody would have to be convinced he isn't Ned Stark's son, which I find doubtful.

Even if he rides a dragon and has Dany's support it is always going to be a little shaky.

First, he could have inherited the dragon gene from his unknown mother, who they may believe had been a dragonseed herself.

Second, how would Dany know? She may be convinced it is true because of visions, etc., but a generic Westerosi wouldn't have that luxury, and would likely question how can she know of Jon's parentage as she hadn't even been born back then.

Howland Reed's testimony doesn't cut it since he'd be just some guy from the swamps to them.

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9 hours ago, Newstar said:

I think Sansa and Tyrion's marriage in ASOIAF was something GRRM thought up while writing ASOIAF and a product of GRRM's "gardener" approach where he comes up with stuff organically as he's writing and runs with it, but I don't have anything to support that.

I think he set up the marriage because, after the Red Wedding, there was no plausible way for her to remain unmarried. However, since GRRM plans require Sansa to remain "single" up to a certain point in the future, he went for a neutral marriage: non consummated, a husband who leaves her alone enough so her status doesn't change while still giving her a glimpse into the political machinations around her.

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8 hours ago, The Arthur Smith said:

Another thing I don't believe Jon and Sansa will get marry is that everyone knows they are sibling and if both get marry, then this would cause a huge scandal. Jon won't have proofs to claim himself as Rhaegar's bastard.

i don't think Jon is going to marry either of his sisters/cousins, even if it was Arya intended in the original outline. GRMM change a lot of things from his original plan.

GRRM said not too long ago that he's going to stick to the same ending that he's known since 1991 (or words to that effect). The outline was from 1993, stated that Jon and Arya were "core characters," and clearly contemplated a JonxArya endgame and Jon not being Ned's son. If Jon and Arya being together was part of the ending he envisioned in 1993, it will be the same ending in ASOIAF, and therefore the same in the show.

28 minutes ago, Pies are coming said:

I think he set up the marriage because, after the Red Wedding, there was no plausible way for her to remain unmarried. However, since GRRM plans require Sansa to remain "single" up to a certain point in the future, he went for a neutral marriage: non consummated, a husband who leaves her alone enough so her status doesn't change while still giving her a glimpse into the political machinations around her.

My point was that the Sansa/Tyrion marriage was not something that likely existed as of the 1993 outline and was something that GRRM came up with much later on the fly as he was writing the series, likely as a plot device as you suggest.

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1 minute ago, Newstar said:

GRRM said not too long ago that he's going to stick to the same ending that he's known since 1991 (or words to that effect). The outline was from 1993, stated that Jon and Arya were "core characters," and clearly contemplated a JonxArya endgame and Jon not being Ned's son. If Jon and Arya being together was part of the ending he envisioned in 1993, it will be the same ending in ASOIAF, and therefore the same in the show.

I thought he meant the ending for the overall plot (with the White Walkers/Others and all that). Jon/Arya pairing is something GRMM intended initially when planning out 3 books, but maybe he dropped the idea in the same way he dropped the 5 years age gap.

3 minutes ago, Newstar said:

My point was that the Sansa/Tyrion marriage was not something that likely existed as of the 1993 outline and was something that GRRM came up with much later on the fly as he was writing the series, likely as a plot device as you suggest.

I read somewhere that Tyrion was originally intended to be in a complicated, romantic relationship with Sansa and in a love triangle with Arya/Jon at the same time. But GRMM might have change the nature of Tyrion's and Sansa's relationship as he developed the plot.

 

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13 hours ago, Newstar said:

I don't think he'll switch the sisters, especially since his initial plan ranked Arya far above Sansa in importance. Arya was one of the "core characters" in the 1993 outline; Sansa was not. Sansa and Arya are not interchangeable, and GRRM never saw them as interchangeable. Sansa existed in 1993 when GRRM planned a Jon/Arya/Tyrion love triangle, and she had some of the features of ASOIAF Sansa (paired with Joffrey, stuck with the Lannisters, of "dubious loyalty," etc.), just as Outline Arya has some of the features of ASOIAF Arya (sword named Needle, bond with Jon). We also know that Outline Sansa has a kid Outline Jaime murders to claim the throne, with no further mention of her after that, so it's possible that Outline Sansa was meant to die in King's Landing (since it sounds like an Elia/Aegon situation).

My (hot?) take on Jon is that if he marries anyone, it will be Arya.

I think Sansa and Tyrion's marriage in ASOIAF was something GRRM thought up while writing ASOIAF and a product of GRRM's "gardener" approach where he comes up with stuff organically as he's writing and runs with it, but I don't have anything to support that. 

As for the suggestion that Sansa and Jon would have a strong claim "together," TV Sansa hasn't been disinherited, and in any event ASOIAF Jon is a strong supporter of Sansa's claim. Sansa doesn't need to marry Jon to get his help in supporting the North, any more than Alys Karstark needed to marry Jon to get his help and protection. The siblings (cousins, whatever) can help and support each other without needing to marry to do it. I don't think Sansa will end up with Winterfell, although she may hold it for a time. Not sure where Sansa winds up, actually, but my best money is on "dead."

With that said, TV Sansa is currently headed to Castle Black, and TV Jon is very much alive, so it seems very likely that Jon and Sansa will reunite before Jon and Arya do. The argument from Jon/Sansa fans was that Outline Jon and Arya fell in love at the Wall, and that with so little time left in the show, the endgame pairings need to be set up pretty soon, so if Jon and Sansa are interacting now, there's a good chance that they're an endgame pairing and will fall in love just like Outline Jon and Arya did. I'm not convinced, for the reasons I've said, but we'll see; if Jon and Sansa in the show start blushing and making cow eyes at each other when they reunite, we'll have a strong hint as to where the writers are going.

I think Sansa was doomed from the getgo and recently GRRM has stated that he figured out this one character, male/female that was always doomed from the start, exactly how he is going to do it. While other say it is Cersei, I think it is Sansa in the books.

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4 hours ago, The Arthur Smith said:

I read somewhere that Tyrion was originally intended to be in a complicated, romantic relationship with Sansa and in a love triangle with Arya/Jon at the same time. But GRMM might have change the nature of Tyrion's and Sansa's relationship as he developed the plot.

Really? The outline does state that Tyrion befriends both Sansa and Arya, but I have trouble believing that he'd be involved with Sansa while he's passionately in love with Arya.

35 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

I think Sansa was doomed from the getgo and recently GRRM has stated that he figured out this one character, male/female that was always doomed from the start, exactly how he is going to do it. While other say it is Cersei, I think it is Sansa in the books.

User Aleenys claimed on these boards a while ago that they'd read that Sansa was supposed to die in the second book when GRRM was planning the books as a trilogy, which I can see given that she's a bit of nonentity in the 1993 outline, but I doubt that GRRM would not have known since 1996 how one of the Stark kids was going to die, or that he had only figured this out recently. There are lots of second-tier female characters in the books who seem pretty clearly doomed to whom GRRM's brainwave could apply: Arianne, Shireen, Selyse, etc.

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Brienne and Tormund. Now there's a marriage. Northerners (true north included) have no problem with warrior women. Televisions Brienne will so fit in to northern culture and be truly respected for who she is. She would Blow Tormunds socks off.  I would like to see that little sub plot in the tv show. Tormund trying to steal her in the night. 

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2 hours ago, the tower of albion said:

Brienne and Tormund. Now there's a marriage. Northerners (true north included) have no problem with warrior women. Televisions Brienne will so fit in to northern culture and be truly respected for who she is. She would Blow Tormunds socks off.  I would like to see that little sub plot in the tv show. Tormund trying to steal her in the night. 

Well, judging from Tormund's sex tips to Jon in 3x07, he knows how to show a lady a good time, so why not? LOL

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3 hours ago, the tower of albion said:

Brienne and Tormund. Now there's a marriage. Northerners (true north included) have no problem with warrior women. Televisions Brienne will so fit in to northern culture and be truly respected for who she is. She would Blow Tormunds socks off.  I would like to see that little sub plot in the tv show. Tormund trying to steal her in the night. 

Nah, Tormund and Maege Mormont belong together.

 I am hoping they bring back Maege on the show. 
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To answer the OP, as others have said, The North belongs to Bran. I also don't think GRRM switched the Stark sisters, but I do think that the show (not books) would be more likely to go with JonxSansa than JonxArya. I don't think either will happen, though. 

I'm sorry, but JonxArya just does not work on the show. There has been 0 build up between these two characters like the books and the age gap has been widened. The thought of Kit and Masie in a romantic scene together gives me the heebie jeebies. :stillsick:

If anything, Jon will end up with Dany. 

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