Possible marriage

[Ingelheim]

20 minutes ago, Joan Jett said:

Like I said before, it's similar with Jaime/Brienne and SanSan. Just recently in one of the new episodes, Brienne had the opportunity to tell Sansa that she had seen the Hound. But she didn't for some reason. They could have had a whole conversation about him. 

And atm Jaime/Brienne really isn't going anywhere at all. Sure Jaime saw Tarth on the way to Dorne, but that was it. Now Jaime and Cersei are twinning in KL with matching haircuts and Jaime is fully on her side. 

Meanwhile the Sandor/Arya relationship is being emphasized even more, God knows why. 

The writers just choose not to focus on the right things, IMO. And if they start it will be at the last minute. Pretty sure it's confirmed that D&D were planning on putting Sansa in Jeyne's place back in 2012. Back then they probably hadn't realized how it would be taking away from the emphasis on Jon/Arya relationship, but they went with it anyway because they liked the idea. It was really a terrible decision on their part because the (f)Arya situation was really a great way to highlight how much Jon loves her. He dies thinking of her for crying out loud. Before ADWD, they mainly just had thoughts of each other and you can't really translate thoughts to the screen very well (though Maisie does a really good job during the s5 needle scene). 

 

If the Jon/Arya relationship wasn't going to be significant, then D&D wouldn't have bothered telling Maisie all that stuff. Here's most of what she said:

This is what the showrunners told her.

I see what you mean, but I don't really believe they are going to focus on their relationship.

We know Jon and Sansa are meeting this season, and many sources mention a meeting between Brienne and Jaime at the end, when he goes to the Riverlands. Sansa is going to send her on a mission to find Arya. Arya will be back as well at the end of Season 6. We'll see. I just hope Cersei and Jaime have a breakdown this season, but I'm positive it'll happen

[Le Cygne]

1 hour ago, Joan Jett said:

It certainly does exist. According to Maisie in a recent interview, the thought of seeing Jon again has been the only thing keeping her going. Obviously the showrunners must have told her this because we know she doesn't read the books.

Sansa's hero is SANDOR. Not Jon. She hardly even thinks of Jon in the books, she forgets he even exists sometimes.  

How the fuck is Sandor's cloak a connection to Jon?? That's one of the biggest reaches I've ever seen on this site. It's his cloak. I guess you think the kiss Sansa imagines with Sandor is a connection to Jon too? 

The Slynt connection was not intended by the author. It's confirmed that Jon was originally going to hang Slynt and a fan told GRRM at a con that it would be better to cut off his head. 

Also Jon does not have a thing for redheads. That's a lazy misconception. He has a thing for independent and wild women. Which isn't really Sansa. In fact Sansa is the polar opposite of Jon's type.

And have you actually read the series? If GRRM is going to do an incestuous couple, he's not going to make it "less squicky" in any way. That's not his style and it doesn't fit the pattern that all incestuous couples so far have followed.

OK. Let me get this straight. In the books Arya has been longing to see Jon again since the very beginning, wishing he was there to quell her loneliness, wishing he was there to muss her hair (she says she's like it "better than anything"), wanting to see him even more than her own home. In each book. Always expressing desire to go to the wall and see him again. Repeatedly. 

Yet, Sansa thinks it would be "sweet to see him" once and all of the sudden it's foreshadowing that they will fall in love? Despite the fact that right before its established by Sansa that she "hadn't thought about Jon in ages?" Get a grip. Nothing is going to happen between them. The context of her thinking of Jon makes it worse. He doesn't naturally come to her mind because she genuinely misses him. Myranda brings Lord Snow up in conversation and then Sansa connects the dots. 

Amen.

Arya and Jon,  Sansa and Sandor, Jaime and Brienne, those are the connections the show has set up as well, they are just really bad at telling stories. But we'll see the right stories on the show, too. They are going there.

And agreed, Sandor's cloak is about Jon is the biggest reach EVER. That's a complete misread of the books. It's his personal item, and one she thinks of more than she thinks of Jon. And it's filled with meaningful symbolism.

Just seeing the original comment - blood and fire, that's Sandor. Seeing as it's his cloak and all. And she thinks about it constantly. On him. Given to her by him. She clutches it to her breasts, she gets under it, she keeps it, she remembers it, over and over again.

The blood is red on white, in a scene where she pretends they kissed then places him in the marriage bed - this is consummation symbolism, it's CLASSIC. The fire is about him, he was burned in fire, he's afraid of fire. Sandor.

There's actually a really good series long story told for Sansa and Sandor. And they told it on the show, too (although not as well, they certainly did, in over a dozen scenes) and then dropped lots of hints after. Including follow ups to Beauty and the Beast.

My guess, Arya and Sandor meet up, and head north.

[kissdbyfire]

So much food for thought here, great job. 

[Lord Friendzone]

If Jon is going to marry anyone, it will be Dany...not Arya or Sansa. 

[Winter's Cold]

13 hours ago, WolfClaw said:

I also agree that if Arya is the love interest of Jon then Maisie Williams is a very unfortunate casting choice.

Is this what it's all about? Maise isn't pretty therefore Arya can't end up with the main male hero? 

[Joan Jett]

11 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

Is this what it's all about? Maise isn't pretty therefore Arya can't end up with the main male hero? 

I'm glad you pointed this out, I forgot to. Most people see Sophie Turner as more conventionally beautifully, so naturally that would be the sister Jon gets to fall in love with instead of the other boyish and less pretty one. Its like people don't understand the messages/themes in the books at all.....if Sansa ends up becoming Queen then she might as well be back at square one, the way she was in AGOT. Sansa is so over becoming Queen, it's a childish and vain dream she used to want. She has learned and developed since then. It's not her destiny and it never was.

Most Jon/Sansa shippers want it to happen because of shallow reasons like beauty and looks, whether they realize it or not. 

 

 

[bb1180]

2 hours ago, Joan Jett said:

Sansa's hero is SANDOR. Not Jon. She hardly even thinks of Jon in the books, she forgets he even exists sometimes. 

I think RT meant it that Jon, of the possible remaining candidates,  perhaps best exemplifies the qualities of the hero that Sansa seems to be looking for,  not that she actually thinks of him that way. 

As for Sandor Clegane,  myself,  I always thought that Sansa's mental image of a hero most resembles that of her view of her father,  and with his execution,  she latched onto Sandor Clegane as the only person in her immediate surroundings that occasionally displays some of those same 'heroic' traits to her. The problem is,  along with the positive side,  there are also generally negative connotations attached to her interactions and thoughts of him as well.  She is by turns fascinated,  terrified, intrigued and repulsed by the Hound,  often in the same scene. She often seems to be trying to convince herself of the good underlying the bad,  while a part of her acknowledges that he may just be the Dog he outwardly appears to be. 

Obviously,  I don't think the SanSans are imagining things,  but I do think there are warning signs that the SanSans may be in for disappointment and that Sansa's 'true knight' lies somewhere else. 

 

[Lemore]

People actually want Jon to end up with either Sansa or Arya? Really? That doesn't sit too well with me at all, a bit of Incest over kill even if they're not really brother and sister, they were raised as and are probably cousins ew

[Winter's Cold]

14 minutes ago, Joan Jett said:

I'm glad you pointed this out, I forgot to. Most people see Sophie Turner as more conventionally beautifully, so naturally that would be the sister Jon gets to fall in love with instead of the other boyish and less pretty one. Its like people don't understand the messages/themes in the books at all.....if Sansa ends up becoming Queen then she might as well be back at square one, the way she was in AGOT. Sansa is so over becoming Queen, it's a childish and vain dream she used to want. She has learned and developed since then. It's not her destiny and it never was.

Most Jon/Sansa shippers want it to happen because of shallow reasons like beauty and looks, whether they realize it or not. 

It stems mainly from their belief that Sansa is a more important character than Arya because she has remained in a court environment for the majority of the books. Thus Sansa will wield political power not Arya. Sansa is the one who will live not Arya. Sansa is the one who will inherit Winterfell not Arya.

It must have been quite a shock when the outline came out and GRRM's main characters were revealed to be Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Arya and Bran. Surely it's a mistake that Sansa wasn't on the list. 

That's why the theories about Sansa taking Arya's place began. Sansa is now the one who will marry Jon Snow not Arya. It also allows for Sansa to become a Queen if Jon becomes King. 

Doesn't matter that there's no foreshadowing for this in the text unlike Jon/Arya. It will happen anyway because Sansa deserves to be happy and powerful while Arya deserves to be insignificant and dead.

[Joan Jett]

1 hour ago, bb1180 said:

I think RT meant it that Jon, of the possible remaining candidates,  perhaps best exemplifies the qualities of the hero that Sansa seems to be looking for,  not that she actually thinks of him that way. 

As for Sandor Clegane,  myself,  I always thought that Sansa's mental image of a hero most resembles that of her view of her father,  and with his execution,  she latched onto Sandor Clegane as the only person in her immediate surroundings that occasionally displays some of those same 'heroic' traits to her. The problem is,  along with the positive side,  there are also generally negative connotations attached to her interactions and thoughts of him as well.  She is by turns fascinated,  terrified, intrigued and repulsed by the Hound,  often in the same scene. She often seems to be trying to convince herself of the good underlying the bad,  while a part of her acknowledges that he may just be the Dog he outwardly appears to be. 

Obviously,  I don't think the SanSans are imagining things,  but I do think there are warning signs that the SanSans may be in for disappointment and that Sansa's 'true knight' lies somewhere else. 

 

I know exactly what he meant. And it made no sense. Sandor is Sansa's knight/hero/beast and whatever else. The whole point of him being her knight is that she found the qualities she was looking for in the most unlikely place. The Hound. Knight idealism is also a huge part of both their characters. Being disillusioned about how knights are supposed to be. They're connected that way.  How can you not understand how that works? Like thematically? You need to do some reading into this, there's lots of essays on here you can read, I'm sure. Anyway @Le Cynge knows more about this than I do. 

Jon will never be Sansa's "knight". It's doesn't work thematically at all. Sansa used to look down on Jon and made him feel like an outcast and now she's going to get the hidden prince as her true love? What kind of message does that send? Surely not one GRRM would ever cook up. 

Instead I could totally see the little horsey faced girl who never fit in becoming Queen. GRRM loves the underdogs.

[bb1180]

Just now, Joan Jett said:

 The whole point of him being her knight is that she found the qualities she was looking for in the most unlikely place.

Jon will never be Sansa's "knight". It's doesn't work thematically at all. She used to look down on him and now she's going to get the hidden prince as her true love?

Do you not see your own contradiction here?   

 

[Joan Jett]

12 minutes ago, bb1180 said:

Do you not see your own contradiction here?   

 

I don't? Point them out please. There's a difference between Jon being her knight and Sandor being her knight. Besides the fact she has actual substantial feelings about one of them and not the other.

Like I said before she looked down on Jon at Winterfell. For her to get to marry him and become Queen would be so backwards. That's what she tried in AGOT. Except her prince was Joffrey. It didn't end well and she learned from it. 

Jon and Joffrey are antiparalleled very nicely. Jon is a hidden prince who everyone thinks is a bastard, while Joffrey is a bastard who everyone thinks is a prince. Sansa got Joffrey and Arya, the underdog, will get Jon. 

 

[bb1180]

19 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

It stems mainly from their belief that Sansa is a more important character than Arya because she has remained in a court environment for the majority of the books. Thus Sansa will wield political power not Arya. Sansa is the one who will live not Arya. Sansa is the one who will inherit Winterfell not Arya.

It must have been quite a shock when the outline came out and GRRM's main characters were revealed to be Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Arya and Bran. Surely it's a mistake that Sansa wasn't on the list. 

That's why the theories about Sansa taking Arya's place began. Sansa is now the one who will marry Jon Snow not Arya. It also allows for Sansa to become a Queen if Jon becomes King. 

Doesn't matter that there's no foreshadowing for this in the text unlike Jon/Arya. It will happen anyway because Sansa deserves to be happy and powerful while Arya deserves to be insignificant and dead.

Or perhaps not.  Arya and Jon are 1A and 1B,  in no particular order,  in terms of my two favorite characters.  Sansa is maybe #4.  I actually like the Jon/Arya dynamic better,  but seeing how the books and,  obviously,  the show,  seem to be pushing Jon and Sansa towards Winterfell and a likely reunion,  and that we're apparently quite a bit nearer the end of this story rather than the beginning,   myself,  I have to consider the possibility that Jon/Sansa actually is the endgame pairing for these two.     

[bb1180]

5 minutes ago, Joan Jett said:

I don't? Point them out please.

Sandor is Sansa's hero found in the most unlikely place.

Jon can't be Sansa's hero because she looked down on him,  again,  finding him in the most unlikely place she'd look.  

In both cases,  the implication is that Sansa finds her hero in the most unlikely place that she'd look. 

[Le Cygne]

No contradiction. She never had anything to do with Jon, there is no story. Suddenly he becomes a prince and voila? Nope.

There's a series long story with Sansa and Sandor. She is drawn to the beast, he is written that way on purpose. She is turned on by his ferocity. 

It's sexual chemistry and it's classic. She would be bored out of her mind with Jon. And why would he want the prissy sister he doesn't love?

Jon and Sansa is not going to happen, books or show. There is nothing there.

[Ingelheim]

I really think it's pointless to discuss the possibilities and arguments for Jon/Sansa on the books. It's pointless because it will never happen, period. There's no chance for it.

Now, as we have seen already, the show and books are diverging more and more with every new Season. One has to wonder if the Sansa/fArya replacement might have repercussions on Jon's storyline.

But, as I've said before, I just hope Jon remains single. I wouldn't like to see him with either Arya or Sansa, or Dany for that matter

[Le Cygne]

So far all that has happened is they avoid it.

Arya and the Hound head north, and Jon and Sansa will focus on each other, while the other two just stand by? I think not.

[bb1180]

17 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

. She never had anything to do with Jon, there is no story.

To this point,  no, but I'm not willing to take the next step and assume that lack of past meaningful interaction necessitates a lack of future meaningful interaction.  That seems highly unlikely in the show at this point,  and I do think the books are meandering in the same direction.  Understand,  I'm definitely NOT going to guarantee the nature of that interaction,  but if there's a reunion between the two,  it almost certainly will be meaningful in some way to their respective stories.  
 

[Tianzi]

32 minutes ago, Ingelheim said:

But, as I've said before, I just hope Jon remains single.

I'm starting to lean there as well, with a shade of regretting he didn't stay dead.

Jon is both ice and fire. If he is one more than the other, he is ice, so points for Dany. Neither Sansa nor Arya compliment him on the elemental level or are a part of the title of the saga (except if it references to the Starks and Targs as a whole).

But the point is Jon is both, and he doesn't need any chick hanging from his neck to check the boxes. Of course, that doesn't stop him from pairing with anyone, because, well, the title doesn't have to refer to a ship?

And I certainly don't understand the people who claim Jon-Sansa is less squicky than Jon-Arya, hello, the same level of blood relation, only with less feelings? Would Cersei-Tyrion be less squicky than Cersei-Jaime?

That said, I don't ship Jon with anyone, but if I were to look at the (book) material, I'd bet my money on Arya. This is what the books suggest, whether we like it or not. Although I'd like to see her with Gendry, if anyone.

The show is doing a sloppy job in this departament, but I would like to see Kit Harrington snogging Maisie Williams on screen, just for the hell of it. What is it with that talk that she is not suited for a love interest? Well, if that's the reaction she inspires, then she was an extremely good cast, because in the books Arya was seen by the in-universe people in similar manner.

[Ingelheim]

1 hour ago, Tianzi said:

I'm starting to lean there as well, with a shade of regretting he didn't stay dead.

Jon is both ice and fire. If he is one more than the other, he is ice, so points for Dany. Neither Sansa nor Arya compliment him on the elemental level or are a part of the title of the saga (except if it references to the Starks and Targs as a whole).

But the point is Jon is both, and he doesn't need any chick hanging from his neck to check the boxes. Of course, that doesn't stop him from pairing with anyone, because, well, the title doesn't have to refer to a ship?

And I certainly don't understand the people who claim Jon-Sansa is less squicky than Jon-Arya, hello, the same level of blood relation, only with less feelings? Would Cersei-Tyrion be less squicky than Cersei-Jaime?

That said, I don't ship Jon with anyone, but if I were to look at the (book) material, I'd bet my money on Arya. This is what the books suggest, whether we like it or not. Although I'd like to see her with Gendry, if anyone.

The show is doing a sloppy job in this departament, but I would like to see Kit Harrington snogging Maisie Williams on screen, just for the hell of it. What is it with that talk that she is not suited for a love interest? Well, if that's the reaction she inspires, then she was an extremely good cast, because in the books Arya was seen by the in-universe people in similar manner.

I actually think Jon will end up either dead or completely alone at the end of ASOIAF. I really can't see him with Arya, or Dany. In fact, I've always thought Dany and Jon were going to be enemies, but considering there's only 13 more episodes after Season 6, I don't know if they have enough time to build that up, and I'm sure that the Show would not change that storyline.

But, if I had to pick someone, I'd also bet my money on Arya. It's clear to me that any love interest for Jon (except Val; I think they'll have a brief romance in WOW. It's a shame the decided to kill Karsi, the wildling leader of Hardhome. She was cool, she could have been my Val) will be part of his family: either his "cousin" Arya or his aunt Daenerys. There's really no point in denying it. It'll be an incestous relationship or nothing at all.

I still think they'll go for Jaime/Brienne on the Show. We know from the trailer that Pod is at the Riverun siege, and the description of 6x05 (or maybe 6x04, I don't remember) mentions Sansa sending Brienne off to a new mission; this is clearly Arya. So, considering the spoilers we know, it's quite possible that Jaime and Brienne have a meeting this season.

Now, it's interesting the fact that they decided to mention and focus on Arya's relationship with Sandor this last episode while Brienne "chooses" not to mention his name to Sansa. It's interesting because the more I think about it, the more I think D&D have switched important parts of Arya's arc with Sansa's. And I don't really know why, but we know for a fact that they chose to make the Sansa/fArya change back in 2012, so the ramifications for it must have been considered for a long time now... I have to reflect on that.