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Ser Criston Cole


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Just now, apovsic said:

Nice strawman there. Sure, because I think that one Mushroom claim is more reasonable than your claim, based on thin air, I must surely belive ALL the claims by Mushroom, eh?

Secondly, I found it funny that you think that if Cole was in love with Rhaenyra (which I didn't dispute) means that he ha a lot of girls? Uh? Also being chaste doesn't mean one is a virgin, just to be faithful to one person (correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not native English speaker).

What I'm saying is that it is quite possible that he was a chaste type of person, even thought he was handsome and skilled. You know, this two don't exclude each other. And there is only source of Cole's chaste - Mushroom, so I will take his word over your claim which derives from assumption that if someone has one trait it MUST have another. Or at least don't pretend to be pure fact.

Well, I guess I'm just biased against handsome people...

TRP also mentions that handsome Ser Criston was the favorite of all the ladies at court, Princess Rhaenyra foremost among them. That certainly suggests he had every opportunity to have affairs even after living at court and joining the KG.

And unless he wasn't sexually or romantically attracted to children there is no way he was actually already in love with Rhaenyra in the early years.

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Well, yeah sure, I agree that he have opportunities, but I don't agree that he 100% certainly used this opportunities. 

However don't get me wrong, I quite like your post and I agree that Cole was far from good man and he deserved what he got, being chaste or not.

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17 minutes ago, apovsic said:

Well, yeah sure, I agree that he have opportunities, but I don't agree that he 100% certainly used this opportunities. 

However don't get me wrong, I quite like your post and I agree that Cole was far from good man and he deserved what he got, being chaste or not.

Not offense taken. And we should also keep in mind that - if Mushroom's says it - 'as chaste as an old septa' might not mean chaste at all. Because, you know, in Mushroom's mind a lot fucking is most likely going on in septries, motherhouses, and the like.

And in general we should assume that a lot juicy stuff was going on at Viserys I's court. He was a peace-and-plenty king who continuously threw balls, tourneys, feasts, etc. throughout his entire reign, and usually interesting stuff happens at such events.

We know that both Viserys I and Prince Daemon had affairs, not to mentions the rumors about Alicent having had an affair with Jaehaerys I, Prince Daemon, and Viserys I while his first wife Queen Aemma was still alive.

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3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The Kingsguard vows are irrelevant to this question since we from Barristan that it is up to the king to extend KG protection to whoever he wishes (his queen, his children, his widowed mother, his uncles, aunts, and cousins, his other kin, his bastards, etc.). We know that Viserys I had extended KG protection to Princess Rhaenyra and her children because there were two (and eventually three) Kingsguard who were named by Viserys I on Dragonstone with her. 

Criston Cole knew all that and he didn't care. He wanted to make a man who had sworn to defend the king and his blood into murdering members of the royal family. That is just sick. And those four KG (including Cole) really seemed to betray their own late king. It was Viserys I who gave them their white cloaks and they must have been very aware of the fact whom the king wished to succeed to the throne. While you can make arguments that other people at court might have more freedom of thought in regards to the king's wishes and decrees (although that's actually nonsensical considering that everyone at court - including the Hightowers - would have been expected to honor the succession as it was set by Viserys I) we should all be in agreement that it is not up to the Kingsguard to second-guess, ignore, or act against the express wishes of the king.

In that sense Criston Cole and his three brethren are actually among the worst Kingsguard in history regardless whether they later proved to be loyal to Aegon II and his children.

What choice they had? Both Rhaenyra and Aegon II were de facto members of royal family. It's too harsh to judge them as traitors and oathbreakers. 

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That is possible but we don't know that yet. It would have taken time to arrange Blood and Cheese, after all, and perhaps Cole reacted first and tried to remove Rhaenyra and all her children before her cause could gain momentum in the wake of the murder of Prince Lucerys. At that point it would have been clear that war was inevitable, and somehow I think Arryk's infiltration of Dragonstone must have occurred before the Velaryon fleet had begun to blockade KL and Blackwater Bay. The idea that a guy looking like Erryk Cargyll could have sneaked through such a blockade via ship is not very likely.

I'm pretty sure Rhaenyra did not put a price on Maelor's head stipulating that she wanted him 'dead or alive'. The mob ripped him to pieces because they were fighting for their price. That is horrible, of course, but it seems nobody actually wanted to kill him. Rhaenyra was especially lenient with her family as her treatment of both Alicent and Helaena confirms. She could have had the heads of both of them, after all.

As i wrote earlier, Blood and Cheese happened early. Very early. It was even before Rook's Rest if i remember correctly. And Criston was ruthless but only after death of lucerys and jaehaerys war of ravens have ended and he wasn't so sick as daemon to order murder of someone without being provoked.

Well, she killed ser Otto so she didnt cared as much about family. And even giving price for alive maelor was quite bad as two years old child hardly could do any trouble to her. Maelor itself wasn't dangerous.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Cole clearly was in love with Rhaenyra - that much is confirmed by the fact how he treated both Joffrey Lonmouth and Harwin Strong at the wedding tourney. Anyone who was actually 'as chaste as an old septa' would have thanked the Seven that he was finally rid of that wanton slut he had to protect for the last decade or so. He would not have tried to punish her or Laenor by targeting their favorites in the tourney.

Have you ever heard about someone who wasnt angry after his love have left him for someone else? It's rather normal act.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I think we should see the anti-Rhaenyra view of contemporary Westeros as a gradual process. The very fact that half of Westeros (or more, actually) supported Rhaenyra's claim at one time or another is a pretty strong testament to the fact that many people in the Realm still stood by and supported their late king's decision to name her the heir - in spite of the power the Hightower-led Greens acquired late in Viserys' reign.

In addition there certainly is the fact to consider that Rhaenyra had become very unpopular in the city by the time she had to flee KL didn't help her memory to live on (like the memory of the Young Dragon certainly did).

And in general history would of course lay the blame at the feet of the woman trying to change the order of things despite the fact that she had been named and acknowledged as Viserys' successor by the entire Realm. That is misogyny at its finest. But this doesn't mean Aegon II and his ilk were popular. They weren't, in fact. Otto Hightower is counted among the worst Hands in the history of the Seven Kingdoms, Alicent was imprisoned for life after the murder of Aegon II, and the king himself is described as grasping by Grand Maester Kaeth.

Not to mention that our own view on Aegon II's reign pretty much shows what kind of man he was, and how he completely sucked at being king during the brief time he actually ruled (which wasn't all that long). The man we see at the end of TPatQ seems to have learned some lessons, but I assume he has actually become more cruel and vengeful instead of having acquired the experience to actually be a wise and good king. And one actually wonders who sat longer on the Iron Throne - Rhaenyra of Aegon II. Aegon II might only have spent a few weeks there after his coronation and his early injuries, and he then only returned to KL in the last month of 130 AC and sat there until he was killed in the third month.

And I'm not sure if Cole is really a positive figure in Westerosi history. He was a great knight and all, and is revered for that, but the Kingmaker name actually is an insult, not praise. People knew he betrayed his late king by crowning Aegon II, and that makes him actually the prototypical example for a bad Kingsguard. If you want to be a Kingsguard try not be like Criston Cole. That goes for both having an affair with a royal princess and betraying your own king

Rhaenyra unpopularity came from her cruelty to traitors after taking city. She executed Otto, Jasper Wylde, tortured Tyland Lannister and killed some crownlander lords (Stokeworth, Darklyn, Rosby among others) what have switched sides in war. She tried to put her obviously bastards as heirs to the throne and while people were starving in king's landing she wanted to make lavish ceremony. She was at end of the war so unpopular that even she was forced to sell her crown ( it was crown of king jaehaerys the wise remember ), because noone wanted to help her. Only Viserys Beggar King has fallen so down as her. She commanded lord Moton to break right of guest and kill Nettles while she was under his hospitality and that act cost her lose of her husband and support of lord mooton.

She was selfish, cruel and uncaring just as Aegon II.

 

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10 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

What choice they had? Both Rhaenyra and Aegon II were de facto members of royal family. It's too harsh to judge them as traitors and oathbreakers. 

As i wrote earlier, Blood and Cheese happened early. Very early. It was even before Rook's Rest if i remember correctly. And Criston was ruthless but only after death of lucerys and jaehaerys war of ravens have ended and he wasn't so sick as daemon to order murder of someone without being provoked.

Well, she killed ser Otto so she didnt cared as much about family. And even giving price for alive maelor was quite bad as two years old child hardly could do any trouble to her. Maelor itself wasn't dangerous.

Have you ever heard about someone who wasnt angry after his love have left him for someone else? It's rather normal act.

Rhaenyra unpopularity came from her cruelty to traitors after taking city. She executed Otto, Jasper Wylde, tortured Tyland Lannister and killed some crownlander lords (Stokeworth, Darklyn, Rosby among others) what have switched sides in war. She tried to put her obviously bastards as heirs to the throne and while people were starving in king's landing she wanted to make lavish ceremony. She was at end of the war so unpopular that even she was forced to sell her crown ( it was crown of king jaehaerys the wise remember ), because noone wanted to help her. Only Viserys Beggar King has fallen so down as her. She commanded lord Moton to break right of guest and kill Nettles while she was under his hospitality and that act cost her lose of her husband and support of lord mooton.

She was selfish, cruel and uncaring just as Aegon II.

Ser Arryk Cargyll had the choice to say 'No, I'll not be part in the murder of Rhaenyra and/or her children. It is my duty to protect and defend the king, and I'll do that, but I'll not murder his sister or his nephews.'

That wouldn't be so difficult, or would it?

Blood and Cheese was early - but again, we don't know when the Arryk-Erryk thing happened, so you repeating that doesn't lead to anything. Even if it was a response to Blood and Cheese it was still a dick move.

Prince Aemond opened the war by murdering Prince Lucerys and his dragon in cold blood. Blood and Cheese was a response to that.

Ser Otto Hightower was no member of Rhaenyra's family. He was the father of the second wife of her father, and no kin to her. And even if you'll stretch relations this far he certainly had betrayed her and deserved what was coming for him. He knew what he had done, after all. But Alicent and Helaena were spared.

Prince Maelor was no nobody, either. He was Aegon II's only surviving son and heir, and Rhaenyra had every reason to prevent him from reaching an enemy castle and eventually becoming a figurehead/threat to her rule. In fact, considering that she didn't know where Aegon II had gone she might originally have thought that Aegon's children were with him. Her not looking for Aegon and his children would have been completely stupid.

A Kingsguard should know better than to fall in love and presume he could fuck a royal prince. He has voluntarily sworn a vow of celibacy, after all. Even if he fell in love against his will - like Barristan Selmy did - he should have shut up and never acted on that because that could only mean trouble. I mean, Cole was extremely lucky that nobody ever caught him trying to make out/fuck the Princess of Dragonstone, or else he would have suffered a worse fate than Lucamore the Lusty (who had been gelded and sent to the Wall by the Old King). In fact, we know that there were people at court who tried to convince Viserys I to execute Prince Daemon multiple times but he had no intention of killing his own brother (one of them being the incident in which Daemon was caught abed with Rhaenyra). But we can be reasonably sure that nothing would have saved Cole in a similar situation. He might have suffered the same fate as Simon Toyne.

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2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

A Kingsguard should know better than to fall in love and presume he could fuck a royal prince. He has voluntarily sworn a vow of celibacy, after all. Even if he fell in love against his will - like Barristan Selmy did - he should have shut up and never acted on that because that could only mean trouble. I mean, Cole was extremely lucky that nobody ever caught him trying to make out/fuck the Princess of Dragonstone, or else he would have suffered a worse fate than Lucamore the Lusty (who had been gelded and sent to the Wall by the Old King). In fact, we know that there were people at court who tried to convince Viserys I to execute Prince Daemon multiple times but he had no intention of killing his own brother (one of them being the incident in which Daemon was caught abed with Rhaenyra). But we can be reasonably sure that nothing would have saved Cole in a similar situation. He might have suffered the same fate as Simon Toyne.

You are right about Criston. If they would have affair and they were caught, Criston's life would end very soon. Since we don't know much about Rhaenyra-Criston relations i am not going to argue about it. Nonethless i still thik that Criston's rage during that tourney was justified. Of course it do not justify his later actions.

 

6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Blood and Cheese was early - but again, we don't know when the Arryk-Erryk thing happened, so you repeating that doesn't lead to anything. Even if it was a response to Blood and Cheese it was still a dick move.

I only want to point that there were no time for ser Arryk to come to Dragonstone before Blood and Cheese, but I agree that it was dick move. 

 

8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Ser Otto Hightower was no member of Rhaenyra's family. He was the father of the second wife of her father, and no kin to her. And even if you'll stretch relations this far he certainly had betrayed her and deserved what was coming for him. He knew what he had done, after all. But Alicent and Helaena were spared.

Prince Maelor was no nobody, either. He was Aegon II's only surviving son and heir, and Rhaenyra had every reason to prevent him from reaching an enemy castle and eventually becoming a figurehead/threat to her rule. In fact, considering that she didn't know where Aegon II had gone she might originally have thought that Aegon's children were with him. Her not looking for Aegon and his children would have been completely stupid.

Well, Alicent wasn't kin to Rhaenyra either, heh. 

I know that not trying to search for Aegon II kids would be stupid, but giving price on them for almost 100%  meant that they would be killed. She should just sent her agents too look for maelor, not organizing manhunt.

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32 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

 

Rhaenyra unpopularity came from her cruelty to traitors after taking city. She executed Otto, Jasper Wylde, tortured Tyland Lannister and killed some crownlander lords (Stokeworth, Darklyn, Rosby among others) what have switched sides in war. She tried to put her obviously bastards as heirs to the throne and while people were starving in king's landing she wanted to make lavish ceremony. She was at end of the war so unpopular that even she was forced to sell her crown ( it was crown of king jaehaerys the wise remember ), because noone wanted to help her. Only Viserys Beggar King has fallen so down as her. She commanded lord Moton to break right of guest and kill Nettles while she was under his hospitality and that act cost her lose of her husband and support of lord mooton.

She was selfish, cruel and uncaring just as Aegon II.

 

You do have to ask yourself, if Rhaenyra had been male, how much would her dealing with the traitors be viewed as cruel or excessive, and how much would it be viewed as decisive, commanding, or wise? 

That is what you do, you deal with traitors. Ser Otto absolutely deserved and would be expecting execution. As to those who turned their allegiance away from her mid way. Some would expect execution, some would hope to take the black. All would know their lands and titles to be forefeit.

It is normal to have a lavish celebratory ceremony after winning a victory for the crown, the fact the people were starving was imo a political opportunity which she missed, and it cost her their hearts. IF she had showered the city in bread, and cheap wine. Had public hog roasts in the street, and doled out stew and pastries. She'd be forever known as the realms delight. In order to have the ceremony which would be expected, the wise ruler ensures the people feel equally celebratory. 

Being forced to sell the crown was not a sign of having lost a personality contest, but of having lost the IT. Who would risk helping her? when Aegon II returned anyone who helped her would expect the same treatment she gave those who helped him. This is war. Not playground politics. It only shows she had lost all hope of winning long term, and to help her would be to sign your own death warrant.  

The boys being Harwin Strongs is irrelevant, had she secured the IT, no one would give a shit not mention it again outside of the odd bit of late night drunken tittle tattle.  The royal line descends from her, and so the sire to her offspring is of little importance. So long as no one says publicly they are bastards the matter is swept under the carpet. As her father knew full well, when he forbade anyone from mentioning the possibility again. 

She never lost the support of her husband, she only lost him as a spouse. He went down fighting for her side.  She was still the mother to his children, his niece and rightful Queen. The fact they were alienated as husband and wife didn't alter his loyalty to her in that sense. If it had done he'd have flown off with Nettles, rather than die to eliminate Aemond and Vghar. 

I've been looking at the early British Queens recently, and it is amazing just how offensive their once supporters found it when they tried to actually rule like men. I'm willing to bet we are supposed to take that from TP&TQ also. Matilda being the obvious parallel to Rhaenyra. 

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1 minute ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

You are right about Criston. If they would have affair and they were caught, Criston's life would end very soon. Since we don't know much about Rhaenyra-Criston relations i am not going to argue about it. Nonethless i still thik that Criston's rage during that tourney was justified. Of course it do not justify his later actions.

I only want to point that there were no time for ser Arryk to come to Dragonstone before Blood and Cheese, but I agree that it was dick move. 

Well, Alicent wasn't kin to Rhaenyra either, heh. 

I know that not trying to search for Aegon II kids would be stupid, but giving price on them for almost 100%  meant that they would be killed. She should just sent her agents too look for maelor, not organizing manhunt.

Well, it would be justified if Cole had been Rhaenyra's equal and had not sworn a vow of celibacy. But he was neither. He was her servant and retainer, and not allowed to even think about marrying her. He had no right to behave like a jealous lover, just as a whore has no right to complain if a patron no longer visits her.

Again, we don't know how much time passed between Luke's death and Blood and Cheese. Daemon had to hear about Luke, he had to write his letters, and Mysaria needed time to find the right people for the job. And then it might have taken some time for them to check out the situation in the castle and make the correct plan. Gyldayn tells us their original goal might have been Aegon II himself - which would mean that Daemon's 'a son for a son' was no referring to a son of Aegon II's but to a son of Alicent's (who might have been considered the true enemy of the Blacks in the entire game) - but that didn't work out because Aegon II was protected by the Kingsguard at all times. Prince Daeron wasn't even at the castle, and Prince Aemond may not have yet returned from Storm's End. When they realized they had access to the Tower of the Hand and that Helaena went there each day with her children the idea to target Aegon II's sons might have evolved.

Meanwhile, it is entirely possible that Cole came up with the Arryk idea and got Aegon II's approval for that plan. Arryk could have been on his way to Dragonstone roughly at the same time as Blood and Cheese were recruited or figuring things out in the castle.

Alicent wasn't spared because she was Rhaenyra's kin - although as Rhaenyra's stepmother she certainly was 'family' although no blood relation of hers - but because 'her [Rhaenyra's] father loved Alicent once'. I'm not denying Rhaenyra came to have a cruel streak in the wake of all the tragedies and betrayals that befell her but her wrath and cruelty was never directed against any of her family members. In fact, I was actually very surprised that she did not directly order the execution of any family member, not even those she had in her power (like Helaena and Alicent).

We know too little about Prince Maelor's death to say to what degree Rhaenyra is to be blamed for that. She wasn't at Bitterbridge and it is easily imaginable that somebody just recognized Ser Rickard Thorne, realized what was going on there, and then the entire town jumped him in an attempt to capture the child he had with him to hand it over to the queen and win Rhaenyra's favor. That could easily have happened without the people there ever learning that there was a price on Maelor's (and Rickard's) head.

As to Rhaenyra's quality as ruler:

First, the love of the commoners is a fickle thing. Just compare the situation prior to the uprisings in KL to the situation immediately prior to Rhaenyra's attack on the city. In both cases the people are afraid of the dragons, fear they will be burned alive, and are very pissed that the people in charge are shutting the city gates (a necessary move in the middle of the war because the city has to be defended against an enemy host).

Secondly, we know that the Greens split the royal treasury into four parts - one quarter went to Oldtown, one quarter to Casterly Rock, another to the Iron Bank, and only one quarter remained in the capital to be used for bribes and to recruit sellswords to fight for Aegon II. Considering that it took quite some time for Rhaenyra to take the city, and considering that the Greens most likely offered a lot of bribes to a lot of lords whose allegiance they wanted to buy, there is a pretty good chance that Rhaenyra found an empty treasury when she took the city.

She lacked the coin to be a generous and openhanded ruler, and one assumes that she had whatever wealth she had use to finance the war. The fighting would have crippled trade in KL (thanks to the previous blockade of Blackwater Bay) and tax revenues would not have come from many regions in the Realm who had declared for Rhaenyra or which were devastated by the fighting (especially the West).

There is no reason to assume Rhaenyra mistreated the smallfolk of KL, but she also lacked the time and the opportunity to win their love. Not to mention that everybody in the city would have been very afraid of what would come after the news of Tumbleton reached the city. That was what the people had feared throughout the entire war, presumably. In that sense the uprisings are hardly a surprise, and would have been directed at this point against any monarch in the Red Keep, male or female.

Rhaenyra not receiving only little help afterwards does not necessarily have anything to do with fear of Aegon II - that guy was presumed dead at this point - but rather with the simple fact that powerful people are only powerful when they actually have power. Rhaenyra had not many men left, and seemed to be desperate and afraid. You can compare her to Pompey after the Battle of Pharsalus. She was not completely done yet, and actually the only known claimant still alive at this point, but she didn't look all that well, and you better keep your distance. But it is actually pretty clear that she would have won the war had she not returned to Dragonstone (or had Aegon II never taken Dragonstone in her absence) because she had still loyal lords who were determined to fight for her. Had she gone to the Vale or to White Harbor the year 131 AC would have seen her triumphant return to KL, and Rhaenyra I Targaryen may have ruled the Seven Kingdoms for another 2-3 decades. She might even have known some happiness considering that Prince Viserys would have returned from Lys a few years later, and with the help of the Rogares Westeros could have been rebuilt much quicker than it actually was.

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On 5/4/2016 at 10:46 AM, OuttaOldtown said:

I think its interesting that Jamie makes mention of him to Loras, in many ways he was the Jamie of his era. I felt myself siding with the Blacks & feel that to some degree that Archmaester Gyldayn was pro-Green..

That passage suggests to me that Jaime will king Aegon. 

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On 5/4/2016 at 10:50 AM, Paxter Redwyne said:

He  certainly is a bad person, but i do not consider him as bad. Something happened between Rhaenyra and Criston what made him her staunchest enemy. 

Personally i think that they were both in love but ater rhaenyra gave her maidenhead to other man (either daemon or breakbones) he started to hate her.

Sounds a bit familiar...

Quote

… she’s been fucking Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and Moon Boy for all I know …

 

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42 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

You do have to ask yourself, if Rhaenyra had been male, how much would her dealing with the traitors be viewed as cruel or excessive, and how much would it be viewed as decisive, commanding, or wise? 

That is what you do, you deal with traitors. Ser Otto absolutely deserved and would be expecting execution. As to those who turned their allegiance away from her mid way. Some would expect execution, some would hope to take the black. All would know their lands and titles to be forefeit.

It is normal to have a lavish celebratory ceremony after winning a victory for the crown, the fact the people were starving was imo a political opportunity which she missed, and it cost her their hearts. IF she had showered the city in bread, and cheap wine. Had public hog roasts in the street, and doled out stew and pastries. She'd be forever known as the realms delight. In order to have the ceremony which would be expected, the wise ruler ensures the people feel equally celebratory. 

Being forced to sell the crown was not a sign of having lost a personality contest, but of having lost the IT. Who would risk helping her? when Aegon II returned anyone who helped her would expect the same treatment she gave those who helped him. This is war. Not playground politics. It only shows she had lost all hope of winning long term, and to help her would be to sign your own death warrant.  

The boys being Harwin Strongs is irrelevant, had she secured the IT, no one would give a shit not mention it again outside of the odd bit of late night drunken tittle tattle.  The royal line descends from her, and so the sire to her offspring is of little importance. So long as no one says publicly they are bastards the matter is swept under the carpet. As her father knew full well, when he forbade anyone from mentioning the possibility again. 

She never lost the support of her husband, she only lost him as a spouse. He went down fighting for her side.  She was still the mother to his children, his niece and rightful Queen. The fact they were alienated as husband and wife didn't alter his loyalty to her in that sense. If it had done he'd have flown off with Nettles, rather than die to eliminate Aemond and Vghar. 

I've been looking at the early British Queens recently, and it is amazing just how offensive their once supporters found it when they tried to actually rule like men. I'm willing to bet we are supposed to take that from TP&TQ also. Matilda being the obvious parallel to Rhaenyra. 

Aegon II too was harsh too taitors and yet noone praises him for decisive.

She certainly had right to execute them, but as joffrey had right to execute ned stark. Had she shown some mercy, perhaps she could convince some greens lords to join her, but instead she showed short term thrist for vengeance, just like aegon ii by killing rhaenyra.

But wasting money on ceremony while war is not over yet is just sheer stupidity. Had she waited to end of war it would be ok.

I didn;t meant to say that by selling her crown she lost her sanity but how she fell from being realm's delight to maegor with tits.

Jacaerys, Lucerys and Joffrey had no right to the iron throne. Aegon Younger and Viserys should be her true heirs because her first sons were bastards. Bastards never inherit. It would be like Robert Baratheon naming Gendry as his heir cause he is older than joffrey.

He went on suicide mission to kill aemond. Battle with Aemond lost both sides their strongest dragons.He would be far more useful alive.

There is difference between decisiveness and unnecesary cruelty.

29 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Meanwhile, it is entirely possible that Cole came up with the Arryk idea and got Aegon II's approval for that plan. Arryk could have been on his way to Dragonstone roughly at the same time as Blood and Cheese were recruited or figuring things out in the castle.

As i said, there is nothing suggesting that ser Arryk was sent pre Blood and Cheese. It cannot be assumed.

30 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

There is no reason to assume Rhaenyra mistreated the smallfolk of KL, but she also lacked the time and the opportunity to win their love. Not to mention that everybody in the city would have been very afraid of what would come after the news of Tumbleton reached the city. That was what the people had feared throughout the entire war, presumably. In that sense the uprisings are hardly a surprise, and would have been directed at this point against any monarch in the Red Keep, male or female.

Thy were afraid of dragons, but it wasn't only reason of these uprisings. She wasted money on pointless ceremonies, she exacted taxes and probably accidentally led to death of loved by smallfolk queen helaena.

38 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Rhaenyra not receiving only little help afterwards does not necessarily have anything to do with fear of Aegon II - that guy was presumed dead at this point - but rather with the simple fact that powerful people are only powerful when they actually have power

It is true, but had she be popular, she still would receive help. Look at Robert Baratheon during Battle of Bells. He was injured and defenceless, but yet smallfol were willing to risk their lives to help him.

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5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, I guess I'm just biased against handsome people...

TRP also mentions that handsome Ser Criston was the favorite of all the ladies at court, Princess Rhaenyra foremost among them. That certainly suggests he had every opportunity to have affairs even after living at court and joining the KG.

And unless he wasn't sexually or romantically attracted to children there is no way he was actually already in love with Rhaenyra in the early years.

Weren't a lot of ladies attracted to Jaime? How old was Criston when he joined the Kingsguard? 

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Otto Hightower committed treason against Rhaenyra. He was the Hand of the King, and he knew very well she was Viserys' chosen heir, but he put his support behind Aegon anyway. There are no extenuating circumstences, just his ambition to see his own grandson on the Iron Throne. He couldn't have expected any mercy once Rhaenyra got her hands on him.

In comparison to other terrible deaths in this war, Otto's really a non-issue. He was one of the people who suggested to usurp Rhaenyra at the start (and therefore started the whole war), and he must have known he will likely lose his head if their side loses.

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@Paxter Redwyne

There is no proof that Jacaerys, Lucerys, and Joffrey Velaryon were bastards. Laenor Velaryon acknowledged them as his sons, and both Rhaenyra and Viserys I anointed Jacaerys as second in line to the Iron Throne. There is no question that they were the legal heirs of Rhaenyra.

Rumors are not proof, and unlike the situation with Cersei's children - who were also recognized and acknowledged by Robert Baratheon as his sons and heirs - Jace, Luke, and Joff all were the children of their mother, and subsequently could have been legitimized either by her or her father should the circumstances have forced them to do such a thing.

Bastards do have claims, too. They have weak claims, that's true, and usually come after trueborn children, but they do have claims.

Rhaenyra executed some people but unless we know the context of that we cannot be sure that she acted unwisely or unjust. I find her pretty lenient. By comparison - Stannis would never have spared Cersei's life had he taken KL, and neither would he have allowed her children to live. Rhaenyra spared both Alicent and Helaena.

And again: You do not know when exactly the Arryk thing happen. Until you do you are in no position to tell us when it did not happen. It could technically even have happened prior to Luke's death.

As far as we know Rhaenyra did not waste money on pointless ceremonies. She planned to formally install Joffrey Velaryon as Prince of Dragonstone in such a ceremony but Gyldayn never tells us that this ceremony ever took place. Even if it did - such a ceremony was actually necessary to show the Realm that Joffrey Velaryon was her trueborn son and heir. She needed to throw a good show to convince doubters like you that he was truly Laenor's son, don't you think?

Raising the taxes may be necessary during a war. Do you think Rhaenyra would have been forced to sell her crown had she been able to take much money and many valuables with her when she left the Red Keep? I don't think so. The sad truth might be that she didn't have any choice in the matter. Many powerful houses fought for her cause but she didn't exactly have the most richest houses in the Realm on her side.

The reason why Tyland Lannister was tortured so much was most likely not because he did not talk - I'm pretty sure he did - but because Rhaenyra and her people did not like his answers. They wanted him to tell that Viserys' money was hidden somewhere in KL or close by where they could take it, not hear that three quarters were in Oldtown, Casterly Rock, and Braavos.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

And again: You do not know when exactly the Arryk thing happen. Until you do you are in no position to tell us when it did not happen. It could technically even have happened prior to Luke's death.

Neither you can tell that it happened before. It wasn't specified so let's better end talking about it.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Rumors are not proof, and unlike the situation with Cersei's children - who were also recognized and acknowledged by Robert Baratheon as his sons and heirs - Jace, Luke, and Joff all were the children of their mother, and subsequently could have been legitimized either by her or her father should the circumstances have forced them to do such a thing.

Legitimizing bastards never end well. And it create much chaos in realm as rhaenya after somewhat fifteen years have acknowledged them as bastards and immediately legitimizing them.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

As far as we know Rhaenyra did not waste money on pointless ceremonies. She planned to formally install Joffrey Velaryon as Prince of Dragonstone in such a ceremony but Gyldayn never tells us that this ceremony ever took place. Even if it did - such a ceremony was actually necessary to show the Realm that Joffrey Velaryon was her trueborn son and heir. She needed to throw a good show to convince doubters like you that he was truly Laenor's son, don't you think?

I don't think so. It was war and wastting money while smallfolk is starving is stupid, specially considering that joffrey obviously wasn't laenor child. Maybe there was no proof for that, but i doubt that even ommon people were so dumb to believe that dark-haired joffrey was child of two silver-haired people.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Raising the taxes may be necessary during a war. Do you think Rhaenyra would have been forced to sell her crown had she been able to take much money and many valuables with her when she left the Red Keep? I don't think so. The sad truth might be that she didn't have any choice in the matter. Many powerful houses fought for her cause but she didn't exactly have the most richest houses in the Realm on her side.

But raising taxes in capital while smallfolk is dissatisfied is very bad choice. If she had know anything about smallfolk she would at least try to do something to convince them that she cares about them, but as it went, she only showed them that she cares only about throne.

As Tywin said, love can't feed a man, but it's hard to rule people who hate you.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

The reason why Tyland Lannister was tortured so much was most likely not because he did not talk - I'm pretty sure he did - but because Rhaenyra and her people did not like his answers. They wanted him to tell that Viserys' money was hidden somewhere in KL or close by where they could take it, not hear that three quarters were in Oldtown, Casterly Rock, and Braavos.

Whatever the reasons, by blinding and castrating tyland, she only gained hatred of lannisters. She destroyed any possibility to treat with them in latter stage of war. Fortunately, she died and smarter people took her place in command of blacks.

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@Paxter Redwyne

I never said I knew when the Arryk attempt happened. I just repeatedly said that it could have happened before Blood and Cheese. Since you don't know when it happened you cannot say when it did not happen, or can you? All we can say is that it must have happened while Rhaenyra was still on Dragonstone, and that it happened after the visit of Grand Maester Orwyle who was accompanied by Arryk Cargyll.

Rhaenyra or Viserys I would only have been forced to legitimize Rhaenyra's sons via a royal decree if they had been born as bastards. But they weren't. They were born in matrimony and recognized by Laenor Velaryon as his sons. Nobody had the authority or the proof to declare them bastards.

But the point was that if they had been considered bastards this could have been corrected via legitimization unlike the situation of Cersei's children who - if seen from the beginning as Jaime Lannister's seed - could never have been legitimized as Robert Baratheon's trueborn children. And subsequently wouldn't have a claim to the Iron Throne.

There is actually no hint that the smallfolk was starving in KL. At least I don't remember anything mentioned about a lack of food. There is no hint, either, that anyone in Rhaenyra's faction - or the smallfolk - gave a damn about Joffrey Velaryon's looks. So this most likely wasn't all that relevant at this point.

And taxes effectively are the only incomes of a monarch. If you don't have any money you have to raise them. Making a loan with the Iron Bank (which kept a quarter of the treasury for the Greens) or the Triarchy was pretty much impossible.

I'd agree that Rhaenyra should perhaps have made more attempts to win the love of her people. But then, if she lacked the means to do that there wasn't anything she could have done, no? I mean, you need coin or food to bribe them, and if lack both then there is nothing you can do. Not to mention that she could have done nothing to calm their fears. After Tumbleton everyone was afraid, and her court convinced her that the other dragondseed dragonriders might be potential traitors, too.

The only way to prevent the riots would have been to open the city gates and allow everybody to run away - but that way Rhaenyra had effectively lost the entire city because without merchants, craftsmen, workers, and watchmen everything in the city would have collapsed and an enemy host wouldn't have met any resistance.

The Lannisters were pretty much a non-factor in the war. Lord Jason's army was destroyed at the Gods Eye around the time Rhaenyra took KL, and Dalton Greyjoy took care of the Westermen who had remained behind. There is no mentioning of Tyland's treatment being considered an outrage by the remaining Lannisters - and even if it was, they obviously lacked the means to do anything about it. In fact, if the Dance had continued Cregan Stark most likely would have been able to destroy both the Lannisters and the Hightowers because neither house seems to have been able to raise additional troops.

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15 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Aegon II too was harsh too taitors and yet noone praises him for decisive.

She certainly had right to execute them, but as joffrey had right to execute ned stark. Had she shown some mercy, perhaps she could convince some greens lords to join her, but instead she showed short term thrist for vengeance, just like aegon ii by killing rhaenyra.

But wasting money on ceremony while war is not over yet is just sheer stupidity. Had she waited to end of war it would be ok.

I didn;t meant to say that by selling her crown she lost her sanity but how she fell from being realm's delight to maegor with tits.

Jacaerys, Lucerys and Joffrey had no right to the iron throne. Aegon Younger and Viserys should be her true heirs because her first sons were bastards. Bastards never inherit. It would be like Robert Baratheon naming Gendry as his heir cause he is older than joffrey.

He went on suicide mission to kill aemond. Battle with Aemond lost both sides their strongest dragons.He would be far more useful alive.

There is difference between decisiveness and unnecesary cruelty.

 

The Victory writes history.  Had Aegon II won, he would be remembered as having been strong, determined etc. Had Rhaenyra won, she would have been celebrated as having defended her throne. But Aegon III won. So neither is remembered well. The dominant Andal culture gets it's way with his mother, but he and his supporters get their way with Aegon II. 

And Tywin could have shown the Reynes mercy but he didn't. He could have shown Elia mercy but he didn't.  

You are not the monarch until you have been crowned and anointed . Look at any race for the throne in real world history. Getting to the capitol and having a public crowning ceremony is crossing the finish line. Because once you have been anointed by god/the gods. You are the King (Queen) The ceremony can not wait until the war is won, the ceremony is the marker that you won. Of course shit happens, and sometimes a crowning happens but a week later you've been deposed and are sat in the tower.  But the goal is to sit in the Abbey (Sept) and have the Archbishop (High Septon) stick a crown on your head and declare you Gods (the gods) representative on earth and rightful ruler of the realm. 

They absolutely are not bastards, they were born within wedlock, any child born to a married woman was automatically her husbands. Yes we know and the realm suspects they were fathered by Breakbones. But that is irrelevant. They are Rhaenyra's sons, born during her marriage to Laenor. And as the succession goes through her, no one is going to really press the matter.

The Greens would use the rumours to discredit her. But ultimitly they are not officially bastards, but true born heirs to the IT.  It is nothing at all like Robert naming Gendry over Joffrey, Hillarious that you suggest that given Joffrey is in the same boat as Rhaenyra's sons. Born in wedlock, legally recognised as the husbands children, but in fact someone else fathered them. The scenario you just used is like, Raenyra having an older bastard born before her marriage to some stable lad, who she names above her children "By" Laenor.  Absurd thing to suggest.   And nothing at all like the real situation we have here which is the Queen's sons being named as her heirs, and their father being a sperm donor. Basically. 

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Just as an aside, I think this point about bastards will be made clear in the Iron Islands. 

Asha is Balon House Greyjoy's sole viable heir. Balon's only other child has no penis. 

Victarion is seemingly infertile

Aeron is a Priest

Euron only has bastards, born to thralls. 

Asha is legally wed. And likely to be pregnant as we witness her having sex, noting she needs to make moon tea to prevent a pregnancy and then being denied to opportunity to do so. If she is pregnant, the baby can be legally recognised by her husband, he is automatically deemed the father, so her baby, despite really being her lovers is a legitimate child. And thus eligible to carry on the Greyjoy line. 

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47 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The Lannisters were pretty much a non-factor in the war. Lord Jason's army was destroyed at the Gods Eye around the time Rhaenyra took KL, and Dalton Greyjoy took care of the Westermen who had remained behind. There is no mentioning of Tyland's treatment being considered an outrage by the remaining Lannisters - and even if it was, they obviously lacked the means to do anything about it. In fact, if the Dance had continued Cregan Stark most likely would have been able to destroy both the Lannisters and the Hightowers because neither house seems to have been able to raise additional troops.

It is true that lannisters took heavy loses in early stage of war, but to destroy them completely they would need to siege casterly rock. Cregan would take very heavy loses if he would try it. Had Tyland been unharmed, Lannister could probably surrender peacefuly. 

And about lannister rage, it wasn't mentioned in books, but you can't deny that tyland's treatment put rhaenyra in very bad light for westermen.

As Baelor Breakspear said, if your enemies believe that you wil execute them, they will fight until bitter end.

52 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

And Tywin could have shown the Reynes mercy but he didn't. He could have shown Elia mercy but he didn't.  

Tywin is example of how to not deal with enemies. Only because Lannisters are in power Yandel have praised Tywin in his book.

He was cruel, pettily vengeful and blinded by his inheritance so much that all his children in end took other way than he wanted.

56 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

The Greens would use the rumours to discredit her. But ultimitly they are not officially bastards, but true born heirs to the IT.  It is nothing at all like Robert naming Gendry over Joffrey, Hillarious that you suggest that given Joffrey is in the same boat as Rhaenyra's sons. Born in wedlock, legally recognised as the husbands children, but in fact someone else fathered them. The scenario you just used is like, Raenyra having an older bastard born before her marriage to some stable lad, who she names above her children "By" Laenor.  Absurd thing to suggest.   And nothing at all like the real situation we have here which is the Queen's sons being named as her heirs, and their father being a sperm donor. Basically. 

It is true, that Rhaenyra have right to claim that Velaryons were children of Laenor as he acknowledged them, but because in fact they were bastards it would probably create much havoc after her death. In fact there is no proof for Stannis that Jaime and Cersei have been fucking, but yet it still gives him (in his eyes) reason to start war. Had Aegon the Younger grown up to another man, he could try to claim throne by naming his half-brothers bastards. 

 

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@Paxter Redwyne

You raise a valid point by mentioning that Rhaenyra had five sons. There is certainly a chance that there would have been another civil or succession later down in the history, but I do not think it would have been fought among Rhaenyra's sons. Prince Daemon seems to have no intention to favor his own sons of Rhaenyra's sons by Laenor, and Jacaerys Velaryon is Rhaenyra's unquestioned heir and a powerful leader in her camp until his early death.

If we imagine a scenario in which Rhaenyra ascends to the Iron Throne unchallenged (or after a short war in which none of her sons die) and she ends up ruling the Realm for decades as a great and beloved Queen Regnant (she is only thirty-three years old by the time of her death, after all) then her succession would only be muddled if Jacaerys Velaryon predeceased her for some reason. The plan was to marry Jace to Baela and Luke to Rhaena. Driftmark would have gone to Luke-Rhaena, and the Iron Throne to Jace-Baela. Daemon most certainly would have predeceased Rhaenyra in such a scenario considering he was much older than she was, making him a non-factor in her succession.

Rhaenyra's grandchildren most likely would not have been married to their siblings but rather to their various cousins to ensure that their wouldn't be any infighting between the various lines (depending on the amount of grandchildren she would actually get). I think it could have been ideal to marry a son or daughter (by this time the Iron Throne would effectively have adopted Dornish succession laws) of Jace and Baela to a descendant of either Aegon the Younger or Prince Viserys (who themselves most likely would have taken Velaryon brides.

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