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Are Jon's Vows Fulfilled?


Chris Mormont

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I always found the whole "Jon is free of his vows since he died" to be rules-lawyering in service of a wishful desires.

Yes, if you take the letter of the vows, technically he died so his watch his ended. But I am certain the spirit of these vows is ''once a Watchman, always a Watchman''. His rebirth are exceptionnal circumstances, but still don't liberate him from his duties.

Besides, unless he experiences a somewhat drastic personality switch, I doubt Jon himself will actually think his Watch is ended.

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It will almost certainly be a topic for a debate long after the series has ended. In my eyes, if he's rezzed, he's free of his vows. 

His watch ended the moment he felt blood welling at his neck. The NW and their vows are becoming increasingly obsolete. Just my opinion. I base it on the fact that the actions of the NW have hindered the 7K. Were it not for Jon, I bet the lot of them would be long dead by now.

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9 minutes ago, Jasta11 said:

I always found the whole "Jon is free of his vows since he died" to be rules-lawyering in service of a wishful desires.

Yes, if you take the letter of the vows, technically he died so his watch his ended. But I am certain the spirit of these vows is ''once a Watchman, always a Watchman''. His rebirth are exceptionnal circumstances, but still don't liberate him from his duties.

Besides, unless he experiences a somewhat drastic personality switch, I doubt Jon himself will actually think his Watch is ended.

It begs the question though, what is the point of these vows when very few adhere to them? And what's more, they seem to drive off the truly exceptional members. And more, again: What the heck do their vows mean now there are women/giants/free folk in service to the wall? People keep talking about Jon dying, but the NW is practically dead as an institution itself. 

The NW under Jon became something so much more, don't you think?

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18 minutes ago, Jasta11 said:

I always found the whole "Jon is free of his vows since he died" to be rules-lawyering in service of a wishful desires.

Yes, if you take the letter of the vows, technically he died so his watch his ended. But I am certain the spirit of these vows is ''once a Watchman, always a Watchman''. His rebirth are exceptionnal circumstances, but still don't liberate him from his duties.

Besides, unless he experiences a somewhat drastic personality switch, I doubt Jon himself will actually think his Watch is ended.

This needs being repeated constantly.

I doubt a single Watchman (including Jon himself) would view Jon's death as a means of getting scot-free out-of-Watch card. Serving the NW is widely viewed as a serious shit across Westeros mainly because it is - you're supposed to stay NW brother for the rest of your life and give up everything else you might hold dear (wife, children, lands...). Jon getting out on a basis of a technicality is huge slap on the face to the spirit of the Watch, which Jon was earnestly trying to adhere to.

It seems that good part of Jon's fandom is trying to construct some legal mumbo-jambo to allow their favourite character to both be effective and remain (on a very superficial level) his honor. To be fair, they're hardly alone at that, as you can also see other fans doing the same (Of course Sandor had to support Joffrey's behaviour, he was Joffrey's sworn sword ; Ned&Jon&Bob&Hoster had no right to rebel against Aerys, they were his vassals etc.). And if AGOT taught us anything - it was that such cases are nigh impossible - just look at Ned.

If Jon finds his NW vows to be nothing but obstructive and in a way of higher cause (defeating Others or something else), I want him to break them. If he has to choose between what needs to be done and honoring his vows, I want him to choose former. And much like in Jaime's case many people will revile him for it, but Jon will have done the right thing.

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25 minutes ago, Knight Of Winter said:

This needs being repeated constantly.

I doubt a single Watchman (including Jon himself) would view Jon's death as a means of getting scot-free out-of-Watch card. Serving the NW is widely viewed as a serious shit across Westeros mainly because it is - you're supposed to stay NW brother for the rest of your life and give up everything else you might hold dear (wife, children, lands...). Jon getting out on a basis of a technicality is huge slap on the face to the spirit of the Watch, which Jon was earnestly trying to adhere to.

It seems that good part of Jon's fandom is trying to construct some legal mumbo-jambo to allow their favourite character to both be effective and remain (on a very superficial level) his honor. To be fair, they're hardly alone at that, as you can also see other fans doing the same (Of course Sandor had to support Joffrey's behaviour, he was Joffrey's sworn sword ; Ned&Jon&Bob&Hoster had no right to rebel against Aerys, they were his vassals etc.). And if AGOT taught us anything - it was that such cases are nigh impossible - just look at Ned.

If Jon finds his NW vows to be nothing but obstructive and in a way of higher cause (defeating Others or something else), I want him to break them. If he has to choose between what needs to be done and honoring his vows, I want him to choose former. And much like in Jaime's case many people will revile him for it, but Jon will have done the right thing.

Except it's not a technicality it fucking death! Death is the end no one ever comes back from death and no one will have considered the posability of some one coming back to life. Jon coming back is an impossible miracle and posably the work of gods. It's not a technicality or a weak reasoned excuse.

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I think once he was declared dead, then his watch ended.  Why would Jon want to stick around the Night's Watch after they tried to murder him.  I don't think those who conspired against him would insist that he remain in the Watch, because then he would still be Lord Commander and Jon has already proved he is not afraid to dole out justice.

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Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come

I think the vows kinda imply such death must happen while doing your job. Jon, technically, didn't die on duty nor was killed on duty. All about his death has little to do with anything related to what he was supposed to do. I mean, if we're looking for loopholes... :dunno:

So,

Watch guy dies by a warg but it's brought back: "thanks, brother... you're fulfilled your duty. You can leave unless you don't want to".

Watch guy dies because a rock falls on his head while he's peeing and he's brought back: "get the fuck inside and feed those horses...!".

 

2 hours ago, Jasta11 said:

Yes, if you take the letter of the vows, technically he died so his watch his ended. But I am certain the spirit of these vows is ''once a Watchman, always a Watchman''. His rebirth are exceptionnal circumstances, but still don't liberate him from his duties.

I think Dolorous Edd kinda foreshadowed the whole thing by one his comments on how they will force him to continue even after his death. It's a fun comment, but I think it's a bit of a hint by Martin.

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A technicality is simply a way to weasel out of a commitment. It implies planning and intent to NOT honor a commitment. Jon didn't plan on getting himself murdered. He died by someone else's hand. If he comes back to life and says I'm done, and actually believes he honored his commitment, nothing anyone says will change that. Jon doesn't owe the Nights Watch anything else. I like how thinking he's free to leave an organization that killed him, is simply the fandom looking for a way for him to retain his honor. That's crazy, getting away from people who are trying to kill you is human nature. If your boss tries to kill you you'd quit. It wouldn't matter what oath you swore to the company.

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11 hours ago, Slowpoke Martin said:

First of all, there are no instances of a Nights Watch member dying then coming back to life, so the people saying that Jon would still be bound to his oath are talking out of their asses.

The vow is very clear cut that his oath dies with him, stop trying to twist words to fit your opinions.

Jon deciding to stay with the NW even though hes not bound to it, is another story all together.

Read what I said before saying Jon is still bound to his oath.

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5 hours ago, Sensenmenn said:

Except it's not a technicality it fucking death! Death is the end no one ever comes back from death and no one will have considered the posability of some one coming back to life. Jon coming back is an impossible miracle and posably the work of gods. It's not a technicality or a weak reasoned excuse.

That's why it is indeed a technicality. The spirit of the NW's oath is simple: You serve NW as long as you live. Getting out of NW on the basis that you were temporarily dead follows the letter ("until my death") of the oath but not the spirit ("once you're in NW, there's no way out"). It puts technical minutia and word acrobatics ahead of essence - that's what makes it technicality.

 

Let me ask you - based on 5 ASOIAF books you've read and the Watchmen you've been introduced to - do you think that any one of them (Jon, Sam, Alliser, Jeor, Benjen, Grenn, Pyp, Bowen, Satin etc.) would consider temporary death as a valid excuse for leaving NW?

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This makes me think of Nietzsche:

“What, if some day or night a demon were to steal after you into your loneliest loneliness and say to you: 'This life as you now live it and have lived it, you will have to live once more and innumerable times more' ... Would you not throw yourself down and gnash your teeth and curse the demon who spoke thus? Or have you once experienced a tremendous moment when you would have answered him: 'You are a god and never have I heard anything more divine.”

- Are the people at Castle Black going to be more concerned having a legal debate about his status as a member of the Night's Watch OR that he is freakin' magically alive again after being dead?

Nitpicking is missing the point.

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3 hours ago, The Broke Howard Hughes said:

If your boss tries to kill you you'd quit. It wouldn't matter what oath you swore to the company.

If my boss tries to kill me, s/he's the one who has to leave, not me.

9 minutes ago, Ser Leftwich said:

- Are the people at Castle Black going to be more concerned having a legal debate about his status as a member of the Night's Watch OR that he is freakin' magically alive again after being dead?

Nitpicking is missing the point.

"So, let's vote, should Jon Snow leave?"

"Sir, aren't we going to discuss the fact he's alive after you all tried to ki--".

"Such nonsense, Satin. Shut up. Now, cast your votes".

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6 minutes ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

If my boss tries to kill me, s/he's the one who has to leave, not me.

"So, let's vote, should Jon Snow leave?"

"Sir, aren't we going to discuss the fact he's alive after you all tried to ki--".

"Such nonsense, Satin. Shut up. Now, cast your votes".

"Point of order: Magic has rendered the defendant reanimated. How do we proceed?"

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Seeing how it was the high ranking officers of the Watch that killed him, maybe he would feel that since the Watch had essentially betrayed him, he no longer is bound to serve it, the same way the North didn't feel bound to the Iron Throne when Joffrey executed Ned.

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7 hours ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come

 

I think Dolorous Edd kinda foreshadowed the whole thing by one his comments on how they will force him to continue even after his death. It's a fun comment, but I think it's a bit of a hint by Martin.

Why do we forget this part? "All the nights to come" imply forever.

Thank you for the Dolorous Edd comment. I think that was a bit of foreshadowing. If you can work after your death, then your watch has not ended.

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The whole spirit of the vow is that you are bound to the Night's Watch whilst you live and only in death does your watch cease because you can't do it any more. If resurrections were common place then the words would likely be worded differently, death is stated as the end of your oath because it's the end of the ability to serve for pretty much everyone... except Jon. 

It absolutely is a technicality because abandoning the watch whilst you can still serve post death and resurrection is the same as doing it when you're alive, you're still abandoning them and violating the spirit of your oath even if the technical wording of it gets you off the hook. 

If Jon has to break his oath to serve the greater good then I'm all for it, so what if he breaks his oaths if doing so is the right thing to do. 

I don't see why he has to be a complete mary sue and not only get resurrected but also get an "honourable" exit to something he committed his entire life to whilst you know, still being alive and able to do it. 

 

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