theory on "born again amidst smoke and salt"

[bojaroff]

i've always read in theorys about the salt part of "born again amidst smoke and salt" in the Azor Ahai/Prince that was promised prophecy, but it's always the sea or other salt water the corresponding theories puts the salt on, but that never convinced me:

• waves on the shores of Dragonstone provide the salt
• Daenerys was born on Dragonstone, an island in the narrow sea ("amidst salt")
• Jon's wounds smoke while Bowen Marsh cries, providing the prophecised salt [most ridiculous]

my theory is based on 2 assumptions:

1. it was made visual (flame, dream etc.) - maybe by a follower of R'hollor or a Valyrian
2. it was made in a warm part of the world, probably in Essos (Valyria), that has never seen snow (no pun intended)

so picture it: you've had a prophecy of the North and the ground is covered in something powdery white, maybe that powdery white stuff is even falling from the sky (snowing). now you have to put that in words and the only thing that is powdery white you know is (precious) salt (maybe you've even seen large quantities of salt on the market?). so whatever picture seen, snow was all around, but you don't know that.

the smoke part could also fit, as in the North you've got fires - so smoke - everywhere to keep you warm, while in a warm country you've got far less fires mainly used for cooking. however, maybe there were people breathing smoke -> in winter you see your breath (which a Valyrian could interpret as Dragon infused people).

so basically someone from a warm part of the world describes blurry images from a cold part of the world he has no knowledge of, has to interpret it, but does so poorly.

(overall, yes that would point to the North and to Jon Salt, ahh Snow)

[khal drogon]

Good thinking but I don't think so.

Narratively it will be bad. When the prophecy means salt and smoke we have to look for things that matches the symbolism rather than the physical properties. So in my opinion it will be lame if the salt part was something connected to not salt symbolism but something that looks like salt.

[Brian Rioghbhardan]

Yeah and Valaryians conquered pretty much all of Essos It snows in most parts of Essos. I'm sure they were well aware of the concept of snow even if they didn't get much or any of it. Given the fact they had flying dragons that could take them across the globe at pace faster then a boat I'm sure plenty of them had experienced snow. I mean I guess it's possible, but there's a two part question to ask yourself. A. Why do we really need the salt to be a reference to physical snow, snow doesn't include smoke in any way, Jon Snow wasn't even born in the north around snow and you've got your whole Bowen marsh cries as jon's wounds smoke reference if you need a salt and smoke Jon reference. B. Through what means or person do you believe that the books will confirm your theory. The person who made that prophesy is long gone so any character who put forth this same idea in the book would just be guessing. I guess maybe the Children of the forest, bloodraven or that arch maester might have some actual historical shit that confirms what you're saying. Part of me thinks those 3 are the best chances for offering correct answers to a lot of prophesy shit.

[Knight and Dayne]

Let's not forget that the melting ice in the tunnel under the Nightfort tastes salty. That always seemed most plausible to me.

[The Dames do Moan]

Yeah, I've always kind of liked this theory since the first time I heard it (I think they discussed it a little on Radio Westeros).

An important thing to remember is that this doesn't mean all the Valyrians didn't know what snow was. It just means that thousands of years ago when the prophecy was written, the folks who wrote it would of known what snow was. Then the Valryians saw it, and were looking for salt instead of snow just like the rest of us.

3 hours ago, khal drogon said:

Good thinking but I don't think so.

Narratively it will be bad. When the prophecy means salt and smoke we have to look for things that matches the symbolism rather than the physical properties. So in my opinion it will be lame if the salt part was something connected to not salt symbolism but something that looks like salt.

IMO, i think it'd would make sense narratively actually. We're taught very early and often that we shouldn't take prophecies at face value, and that normally they come true in very strange ways. i don't anticipate just having someone reborn with salt and smoke around and were good, bada Bing bada boom.

 

[Drogonthedread]

Another theory that  conveniently made and produced solely for  jon as AAR ..

 

I have to say you guys covered up everything ..it doesn't matter what happens with Jon and how far he is away in fulfilling the prophecies ...but iam sure that it will somehow made fit into Jon as AAR .

[Viking]

I always thought it obviously means Salt Beef and Smoked Ham under the bloody star on Ser Patrick Of Kings Mountain, since obviously both bodies, both recently dead, will be put into the ice cells (like all other bodies are) to prevent them from rising until their burning can be arranged. 

Melisandre, juiced up on stone skinned kings blood, will raise a dragon from stone and azor ahai will be reborn amid salt(ed beef) and smoke(d ham) under a bleeding star (on ser patricks tunic). 

 

I mean, it's laid up so nicely for us and any other option needs heuristic acrobatics to even get close to fitting. 

[Grayce Hornwood]

9 hours ago, Viking said:

I always thought it obviously means Salt Beef and Smoked Ham under the bloody star on Ser Patrick Of Kings Mountain, since obviously both bodies, both recently dead, will be put into the ice cells (like all other bodies are) to prevent them from rising until their burning can be arranged. 

Melisandre, juiced up on stone skinned kings blood, will raise a dragon from stone and azor ahai will be reborn amid salt(ed beef) and smoke(d ham) under a bleeding star (on ser patricks tunic). 

 

I mean, it's laid up so nicely for us and any other option needs heuristic acrobatics to even get close to fitting. 

My thoughts exactly

[Nevets]

13 hours ago, Viking said:

I always thought it obviously means Salt Beef and Smoked Ham under the bloody star on Ser Patrick Of Kings Mountain, since obviously both bodies, both recently dead, will be put into the ice cells (like all other bodies are) to prevent them from rising until their burning can be arranged. 

Melisandre, juiced up on stone skinned kings blood, will raise a dragon from stone and azor ahai will be reborn amid salt(ed beef) and smoke(d ham) under a bleeding star (on ser patricks tunic). 

 

I mean, it's laid up so nicely for us and any other option needs heuristic acrobatics to even get close to fitting. 

The part about smoke could refer to a burnt sacrifice.  I've seen a theory that Mel, hearing Stannis is dead, sacrifices Shireen to bring back AAR (so she thinks) and brings back Jon instead.  Not sure I buy it, but a sacrifice of someone is a distinct possibility.  I do think you're on the right track, though.

[Drogonthedread]

15 hours ago, Viking said:

I always thought it obviously means Salt Beef and Smoked Ham under the bloody star on Ser Patrick Of Kings Mountain, since obviously both bodies, both recently dead, will be put into the ice cells (like all other bodies are) to prevent them from rising until their burning can be arranged. 

Melisandre, juiced up on stone skinned kings blood, will raise a dragon from stone and azor ahai will be reborn amid salt(ed beef) and smoke(d ham) under a bleeding star (on ser patricks tunic). 

 

I mean, it's laid up so nicely for us and any other option needs heuristic acrobatics to even get close to fitting. 

And this is not ..lol

I hope ppeople can explain that it was blue star sigil and not a red star ...and that the character was introduced in the first place because GRRm lost a bet ..

And will he be bleeding till jon snow gets back ...let's hope he has enough blood on him ..

And really amidst a beef and ham.

 

I just cant wait for TWOW to release .

[Jô Maltese]

Jon will be reborn in the cellars of Castle Black, amidst smoked fish and salted meat. It is known.

[khal drogon]

4 hours ago, Drogonthedread said:

And t sahis mucot ..lol

IAope ppeople can explain that it was blue star sigil and not a red star ...and that the character was introduced in the first place because GRRm lost a bet ..

And will he be bleeding till jon snow gets back ...let's hope he has enough blood on him ..

And really amidst a beef and ham.

 

I just cant wait for TWOW to release .

Yeah I am getting tired of obscure theories that was made to fit Jon as AAR. Most of them doesn't have any textual support and was theorised because they want it to happen. 

Me personally won't be surprised if Jon turns out to be All important secret prince messiah. But no theory I have seen is convincing. I could make a theory that includes salt and smoke and Hot pie and called him AA, it will have as much textual evidence as most of the Jon theories.

[Slowpoke Martin]

Ok random spew of nonsense.

salt = ice

smoke = fire

Born amidst smoke and salt = born from union of fire and ice

[bojaroff]

On 5/5/2016 at 10:59 AM, Brian Rioghbhardan said:

Yeah and Valaryians conquered pretty much all of Essos It snows in most parts of Essos. I'm sure they were well aware of the concept of snow even if they didn't get much or any of it. Given the fact they had flying dragons that could take them across the globe at pace faster then a boat I'm sure plenty of them had experienced snow. I mean I guess it's possible, but there's a two part question to ask yourself.

thank you for making me think with helpful questions some things were answered better then i can.

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A. Why do we really need the salt to be a reference to physical snow, snow doesn't include smoke in any way,

its "amidst" - in between (two things)

Quote

Jon Snow wasn't even born in the north around snow

reborn i think refers to Nissa Nissa sacrifice for Lightbringer, as before Azor Ahai couldn't be/wasn't a hero (and he knew it).

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and you've got your whole Bowen marsh cries as jon's wounds smoke reference if you need a salt and smoke Jon reference.

yeah, i find that ridiculous at best. "i saw a man cry - yeah, thats salt" (no offense meant)

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B.The person who made that prophesy is long gone so any character who put forth this same idea in the book would just be guessing.

we readers do not know the wording, but the Targaryen and/or the Maesters know it, since Aemon says its been falsely interpreted:

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What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years.

what got me think more was:

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Through what means or person do you believe that the books will confirm your theory.

The Dames do Moan pointed out (which is in line with what George always says):

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IMO, i think it'd would make sense narratively actually. We're taught very early and often that we shouldn't take prophecies at face value, and that normally they come true in very strange ways

and i agree. however, i've got a feeling that this is something George is going for in the epilogue; like Sam saying to Jon: you know, when i first heard it, i never thought of you, but in the aftermath... ;-)

if not, i put my money on Marwyn as he probably knows this prophecy he'll find out what powers Daenerys possess and then we'll see.

[The Fresh PtwP]

Looking at it visually as OP did, i'm beginning to entertain the notion that color could have a role in this.

Salt=White

Smoke=Black

Born amidst white and black. Duality. Darkness and light. 

[the trees have eyes]

On 05/05/2016 at 0:53 PM, Viking said:

I always thought it obviously means Salt Beef and Smoked Ham under the bloody star on Ser Patrick Of Kings Mountain, since obviously both bodies, both recently dead, will be put into the ice cells (like all other bodies are) to prevent them from rising until their burning can be arranged. 

Melisandre, juiced up on stone skinned kings blood, will raise a dragon from stone and azor ahai will be reborn amid salt(ed beef) and smoke(d ham) under a bleeding star (on ser patricks tunic). 

 

I mean, it's laid up so nicely for us and any other option needs heuristic acrobatics to even get close to fitting. 

Ser Patrek of the Mountain is in the books because GRRM lost a bet with a friend who is a big Dallas Cowboys fan.  So a completely inconsequential character is introduced in ADWD wearing a cowboys strip and promptly written out very shortly afterwards when GRRM has manned up and kept his word.

You really think the way the prophecy that is so central to the books is going to be fulfilled is down to a last minute addition due to a bet and a joke?

[Viking]

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

Ser Patrek of the Mountain is in the books because GRRM lost a bet with a friend who is a big Dallas Cowboys fan.  So a completely inconsequential character is introduced in ADWD wearing a cowboys strip and promptly written out very shortly afterwards when GRRM has manned up and kept his word.

You really think the way the prophecy that is so central to the books is going to be fulfilled is down to a last minute addition due to a bet and a joke?

It is literally the only literal star with blood on it in the books. There is no red or bloody star which might apply to any other character also applies to jon. 

 

also, the [Dallas Cowboy] Star wearing character is killed by a  [New York] Giant.

 

but, on the topic of his pointlessness... he is pretty central in the mance-dalla-val-wildlings plot, he tries to steal Val, who literally invites Jon to steal her, gets killed by the giant that the ghost of high heart foresaw breaking into winterfell... pretty damn central to the whole plot as it is going on right now

[Frey3.14]

On 5/5/2016 at 6:53 AM, Viking said:

I always thought it obviously means Salt Beef and Smoked Ham under the bloody star on Ser Patrick Of Kings Mountain, since obviously both bodies, both recently dead, will be put into the ice cells (like all other bodies are) to prevent them from rising until their burning can be arranged. 

Melisandre, juiced up on stone skinned kings blood, will raise a dragon from stone and azor ahai will be reborn amid salt(ed beef) and smoke(d ham) under a bleeding star (on ser patricks tunic).

 

On 5/6/2016 at 10:46 PM, Drogonthedread said:

I hope ppeople can explain that it was blue star sigil and not a red star ...and that the character was introduced in the first place because GRRm lost a bet ..

The only person (that I recall) saying UNDER (or beneath) a bleeding red star is Marwyn: A Feast For Crows 45. Samwell V: “Born amidst salt and smoke, beneath a bleeding star. I know the prophecy.”  He even says he doesn't believe it so he has no reason to memorize the exact wording.  Melisandre, however, does believe it so she would be more likely to remember exactly how the prophecy is worded.  She never once says Azor Ahai will be reborn beneath a bleeding red star.  She always says WHEN: A Clash of Kings 10 Davos I: "when the stars bleed", A Storm of Swords 25 Davos III: "When the red star bleeds, and A Dance with Dragons 49 Jon X: "When the red star bleeds".  So Azor Ahai will be reborn WHEN the red star bleeds not beneath a bleeding red star.

 

The Targaryens are often referred to as dragons beause their sigil is a dragon.  In the Hedge Knight Prince Daeron even has a dream that a dragon would would die and fall on Dunk.  That "dragon" turned out to be Baelor Targaryen.  So if Targaryens can be referred to as dragons, the Martells can be referred to as red suns or red stars since their sigil is a pierced red sun.

 

The chapter immediately before Jon's final A Dance with Dragons chapter is 68 The Dragontamer (Quentyn IV).  In that chapter Rhaegal attacks Quentyn.  The chapter immediately after Jon's final A Dance with Dragons chapter is 70 The Queen's Hand (Barristan IV).  In that chapter it's stated that Quentyn took three days to die and the bed he was in reeked of blood.  So Quentyn Martell was bleeding while Jon was being stabbed.  Quentyn is the bleeding red star.

[the trees have eyes]

12 minutes ago, Viking said:

It is literally the only literal star with blood on it in the books. There is no red or bloody star which might apply to any other character also applies to jon. 

 

also, the [Dallas Cowboy] Star wearing character is killed by a  [New York] Giant.

 

but, on the topic of his pointlessness... he is pretty central in the mance-dalla-val-wildlings plot, he tries to steal Val, who literally invites Jon to steal her, gets killed by the giant that the ghost of high heart foresaw breaking into winterfell... pretty damn central to the whole plot as it is going on right now

Well the Cowboys losing to the Giants is GRRM's little joke as he follows both the Giants and the Jets.  It would have been a stretch to conjure up a jet!  We agree on that much symbolism at least.  Thing is the symbolism is entirely an ex-Planetos joke, a wink to the audience who know why Ser Patrek is introduced and why he wears that identifying blue star - and its not to do with the prophecy.

The red comet is pretty well established in Planetos in ACOK so question is how literal or astronomically accurate you want to be.  It's a comet, yes, but do the people of Planetos consider a comet to be a moving star much like we refer to asteroids burning up in the atmosphere as "shooting stars".  Is it ever referred to by them as a comet rather than a star? Seems much more likely that this is the bleeding star than assuming it's all a giant piece of misdirection and like a magician GRRM is trying to slip a minor character dressed as a Cowboy past us (that he told us about as it happens) as a big neon sign saying "here comes the chosen one". The fact that he told us about the Cowboys story implies another piece of misdirection in your scenario so that we wouldn't examine the text too carefully to conclude the chosen one is about to be born in a barn, er, I mean larder.

GRRM does indeed play with prophecy, portents and omens and he very neatly showed us how everyone who saw the comet attributed a meaning to it favourable to them.  Mel is of course harping on about Stannis, Joffrey's stooges herald the auspicious omen, etc, etc.  So what key event actually happened under the bleeding star?  Three dragons were born into the world after centuries of absence.  Seems pretty major and certainly more major than the late unlamented Ser Patrek.  More misdirection?  It could be I suppose but that feels another stretch.  We don't know what the prophecy actually means and how (or if) it will be fulfilled but it points to Dany and the dragons not Jon being given the kiss of life among some tasty foodstuffs.

Ser Patrek is also very evidently entirely dispensible.  He is a tertiary character at best, introduced barely a scene or two before his death and really a plot device to help bring about the chaos at The Wall.  GRRM could have used any of the Queen's Men for this and in reality he did - just one he was obliged to write in for a friend and one he wrote out again pretty much immediately.  The plot at The Wall, Jon's story arc and their intersection with the Battle for Winterfell and the larger struggle for the North are all of course hugely important, Ser Patrek and his house colurs as a consequence of GRRM's lost bet aren't.

[the trees have eyes]

7 minutes ago, Frey3.14 said:

 

The only person (that I recall) saying UNDER (or beneath) a bleeding red star is Marwyn: A Feast For Crows 45. Samwell V: “Born amidst salt and smoke, beneath a bleeding star. I know the prophecy.”  He even says he doesn't believe it so he has no reason to memorize the exact wording.  Melisandre, however, does believe it so she would be more likely to remember exactly how the prophecy is worded.  She never once states Azor Ahai will be reborn beneath a bleeding red star.  She always says WHEN: A Clash of Kings 10 Davos I: "when the stars bleed", A Storm of Swords 25 Davos III: "When the red star bleeds, and A Dance with Dragons 49 Jon X: "When the red star bleeds".  So Azor Ahai will be reborn WHEN the red star bleeds not beneath a bleeding red star.

 

The Targaryens are often referred to as dragons beause their sigil is a dragon.  In the Hedge Knight Prince Daeron even has a dream that a dragon would would die and fall on Dunk.  That "dragon" turned out to be Baelor Targaryen.  So if Targaryens can be referred to as dragons, the Martells can be referred to as red suns or red stars as their sigil is a pierced red sun.  The chapter immediately before Jon's final A Dance with Dragons chapter is 68 The Dragontamer (Quentyn IV).  In that chapter Rhaegal attacks Quentyn.  The chapter immediately after Jon's final A Dance with Dragons chapter is 70 The Queen's Hand (Barristan IV).  In that chapter it's stated that Quentyn took three days to die and the bed he was in reeked of blood.  So Quentyn Martell was bleeding while Jon was being stabbed.  Quentyn is the bleeding red star.

The uncertaintly over the wording of the prophecy seems in line with the view that prophecy is unpredictable, i.e. difficult to interpret or properly understand.

I tend to favour the idea that this means a loose rather than strict interpretation.  E.G. Mel interprets the red star as heralding Stannis becoming Azor Ahai.  She is well aware that he has not been born beneath the comet so to her mind at least birth is not a requirement but being announced to the world (by her) and coming into his own as King and Champion of the Lord of Light are the key points.

Either way I look at this Dany being born on Dragonstone, a volcanic island, amidst a raging storm fits with the smoke and salt, Dany walking into Drogo's funeral pyre moments after the red star appeared in the sky and emerging alive and unharmed with three dragons seem pretty legit.  The latter surely heralds her arrival on the world stage and the circumstances of her birth seem to cover the first part of the puzzle.  The problem seems to be when people try and put all the elements together and see them obviously or literally met in one moment in time, hence the fascination with preserved foodstuffs at Castle Black or conjecture about Dallas Cowboys or the Sun's son. 

Prophecy is tricky and often only makes sense after the event when how it fits together becomes clear, much like Cersei being baffled by Maggy Frog's predictions (and she still is in my opinion though the number of children at least is clear) or Aemon spending a whole life not understanding the PtwP prophecy until a moment of epiphany tragically just before his death.  Of course you can argue that he got it wrong and is just as muddled as everyone else but I think it's what the prophecy signifies and what it leads to that is going to be the interesting part not that we have been given yet another piece of misdirection to build Dany up as a fake when she is really just a courier service to get one or more dragon over to Jon.