The Mountain vs. The Viper & the Hammer of the Waters (Mythical Astronomy of Ice and Fire 4)

[hiemal]

1 minute ago, LmL said:

Ah, I see you guys have gotten to that chapter. What we see there that grabs my attention are the stone faces in the stone pillars. t's like weirwood action... but it's in a cave. Those aren't petrified trees - they are pillars of a cave. It's like the cotf worked in stone or something. Crazy.

 

What did you think of the Rainwood? The pale, spotted fungal hands catching the rain? Evening star and poison kisses? Sword fern and hornwort?

[LmL]

I remember noticing some mythical astronomy in there - these plants all sound like weapons, for one thing. I'll have to re-listen for that part. 

[Falcon2908]

4 minutes ago, hiemal said:

What did you think of the Rainwood? The pale, spotted fungal hands catching the rain? Evening star and poison kisses? Sword fern and hornwort?

I think George was trying to tell us that WInter hasn't reached this place yet.

When winter comes, everything will be covered in snow and there won't be any more sentences describing how beautiful & green the mushrooms and grasses look like.

[hiemal]

37 minutes ago, Falcon2908 said:

I think George was trying to tell us that WInter hasn't reached this place yet.

When winter comes, everything will be covered in snow and there won't be any more sentences describing how beautiful & green the mushrooms and grasses look like.

To my eyes it read almost like a vegetable paean to the Storm God, and if Doran and the Maester's ideas about the weather patterns hold true the Gods of Winter and Old Night will find no easy victory in the Rainwoods.

[LmL]

Hey @hiemal, everyone else, I spent a moment with that sample chapter just now. Check out this paragraph, the one with the weapon-like plants:

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Dusk found them on the fringes of the rainwood, a wet green world where brooks and rivers ran through dark forests and the ground was made of mud and rotting leaves. Huge willows grew along the watercourses, larger than any that Arianne had ever seen, their great trunks as gnarled and twisted as an old man’s face and festooned with beards of silvery moss. Trees pressed close on every side, shutting out the sun; hemlock and red cedars, white oaks, soldier pines that stood as tall and straight as towers, colossal sentinels, big-leaf maples, redwoods, wormtrees, even here and there a wild weirwood. Underneath their tangled branches ferns and flowers grew in profusion; sword ferns, lady ferns, bellflowers and piper’s lace, evening stars and poison kisses, liverwort, lungwort, hornwort. Mushrooms sprouted down amongst the tree roots, and from their trunks as well, pale spotted hands that caught the rain. Other trees were furred with moss, green or grey or red-tailed, and once a vivid purple. Lichens covered every rock and stone. Toadstools festered besides rotting logs. The very air seemed green.

The trees have faces and silver beards. Perhaps because they are old, or perhaps because proto-Valyrian dragon people becoming greenseers is important. Next sentence, the trees shut out the sun. Again, I believe that Azor Ahai was a dragon person and a greenseer, and he's the greenseer who dropped the hammer of the waters and shut out the sun. So far, so good. Azor Ahai would be a kind of renegade greenseer, a "wild weirwood" you might say. 

Then we come to the plant weapons. The ones that stand out are indeed eveningstar (think of Azor Ahai the renegade moon-breaking greenseer with a black sword, as the sword of the evening, an opposite to the SOTM archetype), sword fern, poison kisses (which I talked about in Waves of Night and Moon Blood), and perhaps hornwort (think or horned animals and dragon binder horns / horn of winter).

One implication of these plant weapons could be the idea of making Dawn from some amount of weirwood, either burnt or petrified or whatever. There's a lot in the story about wooden swords - like, a lot - and the milkglass descriptions of the bones of the Others and Dawn draw an interesting parallel, since the Others have a lot in common with the weirs. Otherwise it might simply refer to greenseers arming themselves and making swords and summoning hammers and comets and whatnot. They might have helped the Last Hero reforge his sword, or they might have made the horn. 

Mushrooms sprouting like hands reminds me of the mushrooms sprouting from Bloodraven, and this greenseers in general and perhaps dragon pele becoming greenseers in particular. Then we have more dragon person / comet clues. The trees are furred with moss, some of which is either red-tailed (think the red comet which is the "dragon's tail") or a vivid purple. Together with the silver beard and Bloodraven clues, the purple fur might be yet another clue about dragon people greenseers. 

These would be the greenseers who would do something like carve faces in stone. Recall the rumors of Storm's End - one is that the children helped Durran Godsgrief by turning the stone to liquid. That's not a cotf thing to do, but a Valyrian thing to do. This story might be true in the sense that we had greenseer dragonlords. 

[wiredup]

Thanks for the tag. Haven't been around in a while. Look forward to catching up on your writing. 

[wiredup]

Btw, I don't know if you have said so or not, but I still suspect the Fist Of the First Men chapters, or the main one when the NW are attacked, would be good for your analysis. 

[hiemal]

12 hours ago, LmL said:

@hiemal

 

Mushrooms sprouting like hands reminds me of the mushrooms sprouting from Bloodraven, and this greenseers in general and perhaps dragon pele becoming greenseers in particular. Then we have more dragon person / comet clues. The trees are furred with moss, some of which is either red-tailed (think the red comet which is the "dragon's tail") or a vivid purple. Together with the silver beard and Bloodraven clues, the purple fur might be yet another clue about dragon people greenseers. 

These would be the greenseers who would do something like carve faces in stone. Recall the rumors of Storm's End - one is that the children helped Durran Godsgrief by turning the stone to liquid. That's not a cotf thing to do, but a Valyrian thing to do. This story might be true in the sense that we had greenseer dragonlords. 

Interesting. I was thinking in a somewhat direction:

The mushroom hands remind me of the hand shapes leaves of the weirwoods- not on the branches, but on the trunks where the faces should be (and echoed by fish eyeless fish?); and not red but pale and spotted (diseased?)- not catching "fire" like a weirwood, but rain (and not catching the light like shade-of-the-evening).

Taken with the few wild weirwoods and the stone weirwoods in the undergrove this seems like a place the CotF have abandoned and that something else has taken "root"? If I might be allowed a little tinfoil and patented spitball moment: I'm seeing this as a symbolic colonization (?) of the land by the Storm God, whose power base is one or more sunken weirwood groves (symbolized in Patchface's songs and now this undergrove and fungal trees) and whose children are the merlings and those with old blood and the webbed digits like Lord Borrel (and who profit off of foundered ships). Patchface is his agent in the Game.

[LmL]

12 hours ago, wiredup said:

Btw, I don't know if you have said so or not, but I still suspect the Fist Of the First Men chapters, or the main one when the NW are attacked, would be good for your analysis. 

Yeah, for sure. When you get to the part in this essay / podcast about the Mountain's fist rising up to pull down the sun, you'll see that I'm hitting on a running motif of smoke rising to heaven to blot out the sun and stars. This is the fist of the first men, the one which darkened the sun. There's a lot of rising fist-like fortresses besides the Fist of the FM, and they all seem to be doing similar things. I will definitely get to those scenes, there are just so many great ones on the list! 

Great to see you around again @wiredup, we chatted about my writings that one day and then you disappeared, I was wondering what happened. Have you been keeping up with my episodes? 

[DarkSister1001]

Hola!

Loved your essay, sorry it took me so long.  A few things I'd like to discuss....

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There were shadows all around them. One shadow was dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood.

I'm in the minority, but I think the bolded refers to Oberyn, not Jaime.  He's armored like the sun during the trial by combat and it's his armor that's golden and beautiful.

The NW's are often saying or thinking of being "black blooded".  What significance do you see there in relation to the others with black blood?

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Of course a stone is a British unit of measurement, but it’s one George doesn’t use very often, so taken with the other references to Gregor being made of stone, I don’t think it’s coincidence.  Oberyn speaks of getting the Mountain off of his feet, and that’s exactly what happens to the moon.

Great catch!

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That’s an awful lot of specific detail here to be coincidence, in my opinion, and it gets better – in addition to breaking the Arm of Dorne, the Hammer of the Waters was also supposed to have flooded the Neck, where the Crannogmen live, and here Gregor gives a “choked grunt” as his arm is hit – perhaps that’s a reference to choking of the Neck of Westeros

The "Hammers" may have changed a third area that's very briefly mentioned.

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The point of land on which the Greyjoys had raised their fortress had once thrust like a sword into the bowels of the ocean, but the waves had hammered at it day and night until the land broke and shattered, thousands of years past. All that remained were three bare and barren islands and a dozen towering stacks of rock that rose from the water like the pillars of some sea god's temple, while the angry waves foamed and crashed among them.

The oily black stone on the Iron Islands is peculiar and shrouds the origins of the Ironborn in mystery.  Were they First Men?  Were they from the Sunset Sea?  Either way I think it's an example of another migration that met resistance.  If so the Rhoyne are the only ones to migrate to Westeroes without opposition.  And they were/are pro-nature/nature worshippers like the CotF.

And I'll allow that to segue into the most recent posts from Arianne's chapter. 

Spoiler

There's a definite CotF/Old Gods presence in the South now.  LOVE it!  Sapling wild weirwoods, caves and the carved faces.  For me, this was the most telling and important part of the chapter.

I don't think it's a coincidence that the weirwoods and dragons both grow continually unless imposed upon. 

[LmL]

55 minutes ago, DarkSister1001 said:

Hola!

Loved your essay, sorry it took me so long.  A few things I'd like to discuss....

I'm in the minority, but I think the bolded refers to Oberyn, not Jaime.  He's armored like the sun during the trial by combat and it's his armor that's golden and beautiful.

It could, and Oberyn has basically the same symbolism - a sun figure who's corrupted and either killed or transformed. I don't se how Oberyn is a shadow looming over the Starks in the first book though, that fits Jaime better. But again, the astronomy symbolism works either way.

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The NW's are often saying or thinking of being "black blooded".  What significance do you see there in relation to the others with black blood?

Have you listened to episode 2 and 3? Basically I have identified the black ravens as symbols of the black meteors, particularly in the scene where they tumble down from the Wall, black cloaks ablaze, in Jon's dream of wielding the burning red sword. The black blood only completes the image. Those burning black brothers were actually scarecrows, and that parallels another "scarecrow knight," Beric Dondarrion, who also wears a black cloak, bleeds actual black blood, is resurrected by fire, and wields a burning sword. Don't forget his one eye status and weirwood throne, which ties him to Bloodraven.  But as for the NW, they represent fire undead and black meteors. All of this is spelled out in detail in ep 2 and 3. Essentiually, the euphemism of the NW having black blood is a way of giving them the black blood of fire transformed beings like Mel, Beric, Stoneheart, Drogon, etc. Other times the blood looks black because it's dark outside, but each time it's a clue about fire transformation. The black blood line of House Hoare is more of the Same - those fuckers built Harrenhall, a black castle destroyed by dragon fire.  That's another symbol of the moon burnt black by the fire of the dragon comet. 

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Great catch!

The "Hammers" may have changed a third area that's very briefly mentioned.

Love that quote, and I've analyzed it heavily in an essay called "The Language of Leviathan" which I wrote a while ago and pulled down to be re-written as a future podcast.  I interpret the "sea dragon" which drowns whole islands as a dragon meteor which lands in the sea or near the sea and triggers land-drowning tsunamis. You'll notice in that quote, it talks about a longsword thrusting into the bowels of the ocean, and three paragraphs later, we see the comet. I think the Iron Islands may have had a direct impact, though we could be talking about an impact at, say, the God's Eye which triggered earthquakes all throughout the continent. I try not to get too caught up in hashing out the specifics, but all the signs of a meteor impact are there, which is the hammer, yes. When Robert Baratheon smashed the curtain wall of Pyke - a dark crescent of stone - with his warhammer, it was more of the same symbolism. The first through the breach was Throros, with his flaming sword.

Quote

The oily black stone on the Iron Islands is peculiar and shrouds the origins of the Ironborn in mystery.  Were they First Men?  Were they from the Sunset Sea?  Either way I think it's an example of another migration that met resistance.  If so the Rhoyne are the only ones to migrate to Westeroes without opposition.  And they were/are pro-nature/nature worshippers like the CotF.

Yes, I think there is some truth to the Ironborn myths of a beyond-Westeros origin. I've talked about this a lot in the comments threads of various posts, but not he essays proper just yet. Thats is coming however. I think there are signs of overseas migration all through south western Westeros, from Starfall to Oldtown to the Iron Islands. 

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And I'll allow that to segue into the most recent posts from Arianne's chapter. 

  Hide contents

There's a definite CotF/Old Gods presence in the South now.  LOVE it!  Sapling wild weirwoods, caves and the carved faces.  For me, this was the most telling and important part of the chapter.

I don't think it's a coincidence that the weirwoods and dragons both grow continually unless imposed upon. 

Check out the post I made about this a few comments back.  I love your observation here, kudos. I'm gonna use that, if you don't mind. Really nice. 

[Equilibrium]

@LmL

Hey man, nice to see you still going strong with your excellent essays. I even listened to the podcast and it is really top quality, edited to perfection, musical interludes and jingles are good choice. And intro is hilarious, reminds me of those commercials for psychics and Chinese herbal medicine and stuff, from like ten years ago. Vegetated a little on a bed turned it up. Still not a fan of podcasts, especially for serious matter like this  It's inconvenient rewinding important parts and pausing all the time to think, and of course reading is much faster. But I tell you this if I even listened to a podcast which I have available in the text it will be yours. 

Now just a quick thought, I couldn't hold it after all the Gregor as moon stand-in, when you talk moon stand-ins, Sam is perfect example. 

- He is the only one besides Gregor who I remember having their weight measured in stone.

- At least half of the "moon face" references talk about Sam

- He is frequently emerging from darkness and/or underworld (Nightfort tunnel, CB library after prolonged period of time, ship cabin, that time when he emerged to the top of the Wall when Jon was there)

- He is associated with obsidian, ravens and mentions of dragons and black blood.

- He is prone to falling!!! (Yeah I can remember like three instances, top of my head)

- His two most prominent relationships are to Randyll and Jon, two authority figures with Valyrian swords (AA reference comes to mind) Believe it or not Jon is the less important one in this regard as Randyll great parenting methods include

- Making him bathe in the hot blood of the bull (auroch - wild bull) if that scene is not all you aim at I don't know which is. And now the best parts.

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You will forsake all claim to your brother’s inheritance and start north before evenfall

Banished into darkness (both night and NW) 

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His arms were red to the elbow as he laid the skinning knife aside. “So. There is your choice. The Night’s Watch”-he reached inside the deer, ripped out its heart, and held it in his fist, red and dripping-”or this.

AA stand-in ripping the heart of the moon stand-in's stand-in  With heart having prominent place in AA mythos, other myths (Heart of Winter, Shadow, and Dawn made from the heart of the fallen star) 

You probably noticed some of this stuff and I didn't really looked into it in more detail, because it just crossed my mind twenty minutes ago, but I think it is a thing worth mentioning.

[LmL]

5 minutes ago, Equilibrium said:

@LmL

Hey man, nice to see you still going strong with your excellent essays. I even listened to the podcast and it is really top quality, edited to perfection, musical interludes and jingles are good choice. And intro is hilarious, reminds me of those commercials for psychics and Chinese herbal medicine and stuff, from like ten years ago. Vegetated a little on a bed turned it up. Still not a fan of podcasts, especially for serious matter like this  It's inconvenient rewinding important parts and pausing all the time to think, and of course reading is much faster. But I tell you this if I even listened to a podcast which I have available in the text it will be yours. 

Now just a quick thought, I couldn't hold it after all the Gregor as moon stand-in, when you talk moon stand-ins, Sam is perfect example. 

- He is the only one besides Gregor who I remember having their weight measured in stone.

- At least half of the "moon face" references talk about Sam

- He is frequently emerging from darkness and/or underworld (Nightfort tunnel, CB library after prolonged period of time, ship cabin, that time when he emerged to the top of the Wall when Jon was there)

- He is associated with obsidian, ravens and mentions of dragons and black blood.

- He is prone to falling!!! (Yeah I can remember like three instances, top of my head)

- His two most prominent relationships are to Randyll and Jon, two authority figures with Valyrian swords (AA reference comes to mind) Believe it or not Jon is the less important one in this regard as Randyll great parenting methods include

- Making him bathe in the hot blood of the bull (auroch - wild bull) if that scene is not all you aim at I don't know which is. And now the best parts.

Banished into darkness (both night and NW) 

AA stand-in ripping the heart of the moon stand-in's stand-in  With heart having prominent place in AA mythos, other myths (Heart of Winter, Shadow, and Dawn made from the heart of the fallen star) 

You probably noticed some of this stuff and I didn't really looked into it in more detail, because it just crossed my mind twenty minutes ago, but I think it is a thing worth mentioning.

Hey EQ, great to hear from you! You've gone and spoiled my Sam episode! Haha, I actually had most of that stuff, but not all. You've now contributed a couple of gems, my thanks and your credit. That last one about "you will forsake all claim to your brother’s inheritance and start north before evenfall" is sensational... really great find there. It's Azor Ahai reborn, the Last Hero, son of Azor Ahai! I talk a lot about this later in this podcast and also in the new one about Tyrion targaryen I just finished writing.

I actually left the bulls blood reference out of my Waves of Night and Moon Blood episode because I wanted to save it for the Sam episode, and I already had a lot of sacrificed moon bulls.  Sam also figures prominently in my Leviathan essay, for as you say, he emerges form the deeps like a black leviathan at the Nightfort, and right after the weirwood looks as though it is trying to pull the moon down into the well. Sensational stuff. Bran wargs Hodor and remembers the lightning at Queenscrown. 

[LmL]

Hey @Ygrain have you checked out my new one? We are talking about things that make sense and "are possible" over here, not sure if you'd like a break from the alternate reality of R+L=/=J.

[DarkSister1001]

4 minutes ago, LmL said:

It could, and Oberyn has basically the same symbolism - a sun figure who's corrupted and either killed or transformed. I don't se how Oberyn is a shadow looming over the Starks in the first book though, that fits Jaime better. But again, the astronomy symbolism works either way.

I'd say it has to do with Sansa.  She's connected to both.  There's the relationship between her and Sandor.  Gregor introduced her to true terror when he slew Ser Haigh(Was that his name?  The knight that was Jon Arryn's squire).  It was the Mountain that was looming over Oberyn and Gregor IMO. 

15 minutes ago, LmL said:

Have you listened to episode 2 and 3? Basically I have identified the black ravens as symbols of the black meteors, particularly in the scene where they tumble down from the Wall, black cloaks ablaze, in Jon's dream of wielding the burning red sword. The black blood only completes the image. Those burning black brothers were actually scarecrows, and that parallels another "scarecrow knight," Beric Dondarrion, who also wears a black cloak, bleeds actual black blood, is resurrected by fire, and wields a burning sword. Don't forget his one eye status and weirwood throne, which ties him to Bloodraven.  But as for the NW, they represent fire undead and black meteors. All of this is spelled out in detail in ep 2 and 3. Essentiually, the euphemism of the NW having black blood is a way of giving them the black blood of fire transformed beings like Mel, Beric, Stoneheart, Drogon, etc. Other times the blood looks black because it's dark outside, but each time it's a clue about fire transformation. The black blood line of House Hoare is more of the Same - those fuckers built Harrenhall, a black castle destroyed by dragon fire.  That's another symbol of the moon burnt black by the fire of the dragon comet. 

I haven't but I will.  Can't use audio at work, these rat bastards have no respect for my leisure time and that's typically when I'm on the forums. 

Sometimes your stuff really blows my noggin. 

18 minutes ago, LmL said:

 I interpret the "sea dragon" which drowns whole islands as a dragon meteor which lands in the sea or near the sea and triggers land-drowning tsunamis. You'll notice in that quote, it talks about a longsword thrusting into the bowels of the ocean, and three paragraphs later, we see the comet. I think the Iron Islands may have had a direct impact, though we could be talking about an impact at, say, the God's Eye which triggered earthquakes all throughout the continent. I try not to get too caught up in hashing out the specifics, but all the signs of a meteor impact are there, which is the hammer, yes. When Robert Baratheon smashed the curtain wall of Pyke - a dark crescent of stone - with his warhammer, it was more of the same symbolism. The first through the breach was Throros, with his flaming sword.

Nice!  So on the Westerosi continent alone we have Pkye, The Neck, Dorne, God's Eye and Hardhome all with histories of astrological events.  I wouldn't exclude WF from that list yet either because of their hot springs.  It reminds me of Ole Faithful in Yellowstone National Park. 

I think we'll see the caves come into play soon due to either an astrological event, the dragons, winter or a combination of all three.  There's crypts in WF, Beric's Cave, the Hermit's Hole, Gorne's Way, BR's cave, this chapter and the "bottomless" wells in the Night Fort and the Red Keep.  Arya might just foreshadow this early on when she goes into a tunnel for sanctuary. 

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A Clash of Kings - Arya IV

And then a wheel was looming over her. The wagon jumped and moved a half foot when Biter threw himself against his chains again. Jaqen saw her, but it was too hard to breathe, let alone talk. She threw the axe into the wagon. Rorge caught it and lifted it over his head, rivers of sooty sweat pouring down his noseless face. Arya was running, coughing. She heard the steel crash through the old wood, and again, again. An instant later came a crack as loud as thunder, and the bottom of the wagon came ripping loose in an explosion of splinters.

Arya rolled headfirst into the tunnel and dropped five feet. She got dirt in her mouth but she didn't care, the taste was fine, the taste was mud and water and worms and life. Under the earth the air was cool and dark. Above was nothing but blood and roaring red and choking smoke and the screams of dying horses. She moved her belt around so Needle would not be in her way, and began to crawl. A dozen feet down the tunnel she heard the sound, like the roar of some monstrous beast, and a cloud of hot smoke and black dust came billowing up behind her, smelling of hell. Arya held her breath and kissed the mud on the floor of the tunnel and cried. For whom, she could not say.

 

40 minutes ago, LmL said:

I love your observation here, kudos. I'm gonna use that, if you don't mind. Really nice. 

Thanks and go for it.   

[Equilibrium]

1 minute ago, LmL said:

Hey EQ, great to hear from you! You've gone and spoiled my Sam episode! Haha, I actually had most of that stuff, but not all. You've now contributed a couple of gems, my thanks and your credit. That last one about "you will forsake all claim to your brother’s inheritance and start north before evenfall" is sensational... really great find there. It's Azor Ahai reborn, the Last Hero, son of Azor Ahai! I talk a lot about this later in this podcast and also in the new one about Tyrion targaryen I just finished writing.

I actually left the bulls blood reference out of my Waves of Night and Moon Blood episode because I wanted to save it for the Sam episode, and I already had a lot of sacrificed moon bulls.  Sam also figures prominently in my Leviathan essay, for as you say, he emerges form the deeps like a black leviathan at the Nightfort, and right after the weirwood looks as though it is trying to pull the moon down into the well. Sensational stuff. Bran wargs Hodor and remembers the lightning at Queenscrown. 

Yeah, sorry bout that, I emerge once in a while and ruin stuff for everyone  I was glad to contribute a little.

About "you will forsake all claim to your brother’s inheritance and start north before evenfall" it is interesting as it has some serious Biblical vibe and as we already discussed Martin is more than happy to ape the content and feel of Bible. You can make a case for parallels with prodigal son especially if things roll in that way. But currently more fitting is the story about the fall of Lucifer, just subverted in the major way, by having Yahweh stand-in be a bad guy. Lucifer is banished into darkness, but even more interesting thing is his connection to the north. Martin is likely to make such subversion as he is ex-Catholic now very liberal atheist and whose writing frequently touches upon the subject of Otherness, so making it so that Lucifer stand-in was banished because he was different, not evil (hammered home by making Sam extra, extra nice guy), and making authority figure intolerant and rigid, ie. evil.

AA and son (small town store anyone :D) stuff is solid, and it fits perfectly into symbolism mentioned above. 

 

[LmL]

@Equilibrium, you'll recall our conversation about the Davos Shadowchaser chapter with Edric Storm, right? That's the first place we picked up on the "Son of AA = LH" idea. I've been seeing it more and more. Tyrion killing his father is a great example. Tyrion is a monkey demon and a gargoyle - he's a moon meteor / AA reborn symbol, I have found, and he kills his father, the sun. When the meteors hit the ground and threw up the ash and smoke, that is what killed the sun. Thus, the sun's moon meteor children turned on him and killed him. 

[Equilibrium]

Just now, LmL said:

@Equilibrium, you'll recall our conversation about the Davos Shadowchaser chapter with Edric Storm, right? That's the first place we picked up on the "Son of AA = LH" idea. I've been seeing it more and more. Tyrion killing his father is a great example. Tyrion is a monkey demon and a gargoyle - he's a moon meteor / AA reborn symbol, I have found, and he kills his father, the sun. When the meteors hit the ground and threw up the ash and smoke, that is what killed the sun. Thus, the sun's moon meteor children turned on him and killed him. 

I always took that part as given as it made so much sense, both with story and meta aspects. 

And just to drop some further thoughts about Sam as Lucifer stand-in, you know Sam as devil is ridiculous on the first sight, yeah parallel is solid, but the thought is funny, Sam is unlike any presentation of devil ever, I thought, but then it dawned on me, you know who would be in sync with culture's representation of devil, Euron, who is also Ironborn, sits Seastone Chair and is connected to night, blood and tides. He and Sam have more in common then meets the eye.

Both were banished, both renounced their religion, both are radically different from their fathers (authority figures), both are heavily connected to crows.

Of course, Euron took the throne (and probably killed his brother too, makes most sense) so no forsaking claims on his part. 

Thing is Sam and Euron are colliding to meet, and it is a thing to pay mayor amount of attention to, with the all symbolism surrounding them. Sam shouldn't get out lightly but him being author's surrogate and all maybe even Euron gets short end of the stick.

And talking about author surrogates, Tyrion must be mentioned. We could all list Sam - Tyrion parallels, but far more impotant are Tyrion - Euron parallels.

Both have heterochromia iris (different color eyes), they were both banished, both had perfect older brother, both killed ruling head of the family, both concocted a cunning plan to burn the enemy fleet in war (Lannisport/Blackwater), both are hedonistic, they are both have a thing of outcasts "Nuncle always had a fondness for freaks and fools" "I have a tender spot in my heart for cripples and bastards and broken things", both are very cynical about religion, both had peculiar dreams, both are obsessed with dragons.

My point is if you worked on Sam and Tyrion, Euron is also worth a look.

[LmL]

1 hour ago, Equilibrium said:

I always took that part as given as it made so much sense, both with story and meta aspects. 

And just to drop some further thoughts about Sam as Lucifer stand-in, you know Sam as devil is ridiculous on the first sight, yeah parallel is solid, but the thought is funny, Sam is unlike any presentation of devil ever, I thought, but then it dawned on me, you know who would be in sync with culture's representation of devil, Euron, who is also Ironborn, sits Seastone Chair and is connected to night, blood and tides. He and Sam have more in common then meets the eye.

Both were banished, both renounced their religion, both are radically different from their fathers (authority figures), both are heavily connected to crows.

Of course, Euron took the throne (and probably killed his brother too, makes most sense) so no forsaking claims on his part. 

Thing is Sam and Euron are colliding to meet, and it is a thing to pay mayor amount of attention to, with the all symbolism surrounding them. Sam shouldn't get out lightly but him being author's surrogate and all maybe even Euron gets short end of the stick.

And talking about author surrogates, Tyrion must be mentioned. We could all list Sam - Tyrion parallels, but far more impotant are Tyrion - Euron parallels.

Both have heterochromia iris (different color eyes), they were both banished, both had perfect older brother, both killed ruling head of the family, both concocted a cunning plan to burn the enemy fleet in war (Lannisport/Blackwater), both are hedonistic, they are both have a thing of outcasts "Nuncle always had a fondness for freaks and fools" "I have a tender spot in my heart for cripples and bastards and broken things", both are very cynical about religion, both had peculiar dreams, both are obsessed with dragons.

My point is if you worked on Sam and Tyrion, Euron is also worth a look.

Great stuff EQ, I've missed you. You have fantastic eye for this stuff. I hadn't noticed much of that at all, but wow, you're right. Separately, I have done a lot of research on Euron, which will be in my God's Eye episode. He's definitely chock full of symbolism!  I was thinking about the mismatched eye thing last night, but hadn't noticed all the other parallels, with the banishment and usurpation being especially relevant, I am thinking. The fondness for freaks and bastards is a nice catch. 

Sometimes with similar characters we see a pointed divergence - Sam forsaking his claim, and Euron doing the opposite, for example. If we have multiple children of AA going on, then we could be seeing two brothers whose paths diverged, kind of like Jon and Robb. 

[Equilibrium]

12 hours ago, LmL said:

Great stuff EQ, I've missed you. You have fantastic eye for this stuff. I hadn't noticed much of that at all, but wow, you're right. Separately, I have done a lot of research on Euron, which will be in my God's Eye episode. He's definitely chock full of symbolism!  I was thinking about the mismatched eye thing last night, but hadn't noticed all the other parallels, with the banishment and usurpation being especially relevant, I am thinking. The fondness for freaks and bastards is a nice catch. 

Sometimes with similar characters we see a pointed divergence - Sam forsaking his claim, and Euron doing the opposite, for example. If we have multiple children of AA going on, then we could be seeing two brothers whose paths diverged, kind of like Jon and Robb. 

Thanks, man, means a lot coming from you. Yeah life gets in the way, I could go with the dissecting ASOIAF all day but alas it's not viable option  Yes, eye must be the blue one catching all that stuff, green one is up to no good. That is why I am so into mismatched eyes symbolism, I have them too.

Greyjoy brothers are great stand-in for our three sons of AA symbolism, Aeron is connected to both priesthood (greenman analogy) and cold, and further more with sea, salt etc. Victarion on the other hand exhibits some fire symbolism with his new hand but also the bull symbolism of solar deities. Euron is connected with darkness, bright blue eye with Others, blue lips also bear evil and cold symbolism. but his dreams and crow connection point to greenseers also. Balon actually thanks to his early asection to power, his solemnity and authority comes to mind as a father-figure for the rest of the brothers, so he would be AA stand-in in this case.