The Mountain vs. The Viper & the Hammer of the Waters (Mythical Astronomy of Ice and Fire 4)

[hiemal]

"Saving the best for last, let’s have a look at that poisonous sun spear, shall we?

“We are fond of spears in Dorne. Besides, it is the only way to counter his reach. Have a look, Lord Imp, but see you do not touch.” The spear was turned ash eight feet long, the shaft smooth, thick, and heavy. The last two feet of that was steel: a slender leaf-shaped spearhead narrowing to a wicked spike. The edges looked sharp enough to shave with. When Oberyn spun the haft between the palms of his hand, they glistened black. Oil? Or poison?    

The spear is tipped in black poison, which looks like black oil.  This is a great connection, tying the magically toxic oily black stones to the idea of a poisonous sun-spear.  I have proposed that the oily black stones are moon meteors, black bloodstones, and here we see that the steel blade of the sun-spear is coated in black poison that looks like oil.  That’s pretty sweet symbolism, right?  I’ll say it again: the sun’s spear is an oily black blade.  And I say to you: are you not entertained?"

So very, very much.

And because I am who I am I would like to toss out a few of my own ruminations on the sunspear, if I may:

In the Martell banner, as the World Book points out, we have a Rhoynish sun and a Dornish spear- not the masculine, punishing sun of Dorne but the generative, procreative sun of Mother Rhoyne (and by extension, I would argue with the Maiden-Clothed-in-Light, at least in spirit if not in tradition) making it sexually symbolic. Par for the course for  fXXk-mad Dorne with its Manwoody's and its Towers of Joy...

Tinfoil ahoy:

The spear is not just phallus but sperm- and the penetration of the sun, and by extension the moon in the altered (perverted?) moon scenario, represents not so much intercourse but conception and eventually birth. Hermetically, below we have Nissa-Nissa and Lightbringer (which I believe is most usefully interpreted as archetypically a mother dying in childbirth) and above we have the moon exploding and bringing... what, I wonder? Perhaps a "stillbirth" and this go-round represents the last chance to do it right (running out of moons here!)?

The oily black blade reminds me of the hybrid-breeding projects at Golgossi (something like that)- my waaaay tinfoil is that the BSE was involved with those before the Blood Betrayal and that his... experiments are represented in the LB legend.. You have an enviable talent for organized analysis.

 

 

[LmL]

1 hour ago, hiemal said:

"Saving the best for last, let’s have a look at that poisonous sun spear, shall we?

“We are fond of spears in Dorne. Besides, it is the only way to counter his reach. Have a look, Lord Imp, but see you do not touch.” The spear was turned ash eight feet long, the shaft smooth, thick, and heavy. The last two feet of that was steel: a slender leaf-shaped spearhead narrowing to a wicked spike. The edges looked sharp enough to shave with. When Oberyn spun the haft between the palms of his hand, they glistened black. Oil? Or poison?    

The spear is tipped in black poison, which looks like black oil.  This is a great connection, tying the magically toxic oily black stones to the idea of a poisonous sun-spear.  I have proposed that the oily black stones are moon meteors, black bloodstones, and here we see that the steel blade of the sun-spear is coated in black poison that looks like oil.  That’s pretty sweet symbolism, right?  I’ll say it again: the sun’s spear is an oily black blade.  And I say to you: are you not entertained?"

So very, very much.

Sweet! Cause I thought that shit was pretty neat-o! It's one of the main reasons I chose to do a breakdown of this fight at this point in my series... the oily black poisonous sun-spear of the Red Viper which strikes arms like lightning is just... well it's a lot of ideas wrapped up in one, you know? The ash wood / trail of ash thing was equally cool, once I picked up on it. That was a later addition.. it wasn't until I started comparing the Arya Oakheart dismemberment to the Mountain's wounds that I noticed it was ash wood, just like the Night's Watch heads... three time's the charm, you know? And when that broken ash wood shaft is sticking out of the Mountain's chest, it's just such a perfect and detailed depiction of a fallen moon mountain which throws up a column of ash. It compares nicely yo the end of the Mystery Knight with the burning Blackfyre banner.

1 hour ago, hiemal said:

And because I am who I am I would like to toss out a few of my own ruminations on the sunspear, if I may:

In the Martell banner, as the World Book points out, we have a Rhoynish sun and a Dornish spear- not the masculine, punishing sun of Dorne but the generative, procreative sun of Mother Rhoyne (and by extension, I would argue with the Maiden-Clothed-in-Light, at least in spirit if not in tradition) making it sexually symbolic. Par for the course for  fXXk-mad Dorne with its Manwoody's and its Towers of Joy...

I agree 100% that the Rhoynish sun and idea of a female solar king like Nymeria who sits in a sun throne is absolutely reminiscent of the Maiden Made of Light, a solar deity like the Japanese Amaterasu, who also caused a long night when she hid her face from the world for some mysterious reason.  I've mentioned a few times that Azor Ahai reborn is also Nissa Nissa reborn, sun Azor Ahai reborn is the child of the sun AND the moon. The child of the sun in mythology is almost always the morningstar, Venus, and indeed, "Nymeria's Star" which shines brighter than all the rest may well be Venus. Just a speculation, but Venus is the brightest "star" in the sky. The point is, Dany transitions form moon maiden to "AA reborn," or you could say, "Nissa Nissa reborn." This character is a reprised solar king, primarily - this is the "night sun" I keep talking about. The "pierced sun" of Dorne would indicate the transformed sun, and indeed, the Dornish sun is red, indicating a bloody sun or setting sun. We know Azor Ahai and lightbringer's color is red, and we've seen the red sun represent AA and Lightbringer, yadda yadda. It all fits, in any case, with the Dornish sigil.

Even Nymeria's landing at Sunspear was recreating the hammer of the waters moon meteor, because Nymeria was a star and a piece of the sun which landed on the broken arm of Dorne. When King Robert's Warhammer - a galley from King's Landing - sails to Sunspear with a soon to be face-slashed moon maiden, it's more of the same. 

1 hour ago, hiemal said:

Tinfoil ahoy:

The spear is not just phallus but sperm- and the penetration of the sun, and by extension the moon in the altered (perverted?) moon scenario, represents not so much intercourse but conception and eventually birth. Hermetically, below we have Nissa-Nissa and Lightbringer (which I believe is most usefully interpreted as archetypically a mother dying in childbirth) and above we have the moon exploding and bringing... what, I wonder? Perhaps a "stillbirth" and this go-round represents the last chance to do it right (running out of moons here!)?

Yes, I agree again 100%. The comet / sun / moon conjunction can look very much like an egg and a sperm:

https://lucifermeanslightbringer.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/gods-eye-one-sword.jpg?w=780

And I agree that the reproductive aspect of the Lightbringer myth is the "most important" in that the characters will always be more important to the story than the swords or the comets. But I do think both happened - Nissa Nissa (or whomever that represents) was sacrificed to work blood magic and make a flaming sword, AND, she gave birth to a child who was "AA reborn" in the sense that a child is the rebirth of their parents.  In addition, the original Azor Ahai - we'll just call him dad - seems to have become undead at some point. That's "Azor Ahai reborn" as a zombie, as our beloved Jon Snowflake will soon be. Except not a total zombie, disclaimer disclaimer. 

There is a stillbirth / dead baby theme going on, which I've brought up a few times. Dany's dead lizard baby, Ashara's miscarriage, Rhaenryra's dead lizard baby, on and on. Ghost and his brethren born with the dead. It's a thing. Basically think it refers to those toxic black moon meteor dragons. They are like death stars, dark stars. Everything about them is inverted. Light-drinking, soul-sucking. These things represent Azor Ahai reborn, don't forget. These things represent Lightbringer the theoretically black sword (black and red, whatever). That's why I spent so much time on the nature of Azor Ahai and these meteors, because I think it's one of the most clear and consistent ideas, all throughout the text. He told us Azor Ahai was a hero, but has given us a thousand reasons to doubt it. I'm not against the black magic somehow being turned against some other evil and being redeemed somehow, or some other complexity, but the point is these are weapons of darkness and death, and Azor Ahai reborn was a person who brought the same. 

As for doing it right... we have one more moon, which may be an "ice moon," so this time we should get ice dragons. I have seen what look to be clues that we are in for another moon disaster, which should trigger the new Long Night I would think, and it really looks to me like we are in for ice-associated meteors (dragons) this time. If Dany represents the rebirth of the "fire moon," then Jon Snow, child of Lyanna of the winter rose, would be the "child" of the ice moon, a position he shares with the Others. He's "Azor Ahai reborn in an icy sheath," as I like to call him. The ice dragon. That's why he's the special Snowflake!

1 hour ago, hiemal said:

The oily black blade reminds me of the hybrid-breeding projects at Golgossi (something like that)- my waaaay tinfoil is that the BSE was involved with those before the Blood Betrayal and that his... experiments are represented in the LB legend..

I think it's not tinfoil at all. We are told that the Bloodstone emperor performed basically every type of black magic, and I think the Valyrians inherited much of their magical knowledge from his legacy. The human-animal hybrid experiments at Gorgai-turned-Gorgossos reek of the type of shit the BSE was known for. And when we consider that Gorgai existed before Valyria did... 

Even more interesting is that Gorgai sits right next to a large deposit of oily black stone (Isle of Toads). I suspect that this oily black stone can be used for dark magic - the BSE was said to worship it, after all, and Yeen and Asshai shops us that the stone exudes dark magic of some kind. What I am saying, is, why would the Valyrians inherit a slave colony in a remote location and maintain a presence there for FIVE THOUSAND YEARS? Were they mining the oily black stone with slave / penal colony labor? That shit is toxic, it figures you'd use slaves of the lowest rank. I have long suspected that oily black meteorite stone is the magic ingredient in valyrian steel, and the reason why it is so dark. If this is true, Gorgossos is the logical place for  Valyrian mine of such stone to exist. So... I definitely see an intersection of oily black stone, dark magic such as creating human animal hybrids, the Valyrians, and the Bloodstone Emperor. I wouldn't be shocked if the BSE had something to do with the place, and in fact we've discussed the idea on my threads that perhaps the entire continent of Sothoryos was overrun with the Bloodstone Emperor's genetic experiments, and that's why it is full of monsters. The Summer Islanders' legends point to an ancient migration from Sothoryos to the Summer Isles, which could be the other piece of the puzzle here. Who knows, but it seems a reasonable suspicion to me. 

1 hour ago, hiemal said:

 

You have an enviable talent for organized analysis.

Why thank you! It's been an interesting challenge to lay it all out. I certainly didn't intend to start doing a close analysis of ASOIAF when I started all this... I just put the "dragons come from the moon" thing together with the idea of moon meteors and the rest jet kind of unravelled. My love of mythology and anything about ancient man and astronomy gave me the right lens to see what Martin was doing, and once I had the basics, the rest just kind of flows freely. I still get the sense that I only have a few layers of the tapestry... there is just so much going on. That's why so many smart people can write so much brilliant analysis of the series from so many different angles, each with their own valid framework of perception. It's quite rewarding - it ain't for nothing that he has generated such a huge and lively fan community.  I'm just happy to have carved out a unique little fiefdom for myself! Hooray!  

[Lady Fishbiscuit]

Great essay!  I found myself laughing because the celestial symbolism in that viper/mountain scene is so overt that I'm amazed I didn't see it on my recent re-read! 

I like this explanation for the hammer of the waters, it makes much more sense than a magic tidal wave sent by the COTF after the men had already crossed the land bridge.

If the dragon is a meteor symbol and, as we're told repeatedly, the dragon has 3 heads, I'm wondering did we have 3 major meteors (as well as many smaller ones) from the meteor shower when the 2nd moon was destroyed.  The iron islands are so far from the broken arm / hammer of the waters that I want to say the sea dragon myth is from their own meteor impact.  The fact that that one of the iron islands is called Pike and another Blacktyde play into this too.

Also, if the 3 dragon heads also symbolise the 3 celestial bodies (sun & 2 moons), my mind is also racing ahead to try to figure what, if anything, this foreshadows for our 3 current day dragon heads - I'm with you on this, it's Dany/Jon/Tyrion.  Will it mean one of them will be (almost) destroyed when causing the destruction of another? I've never been convinced we'll see a romance between any of these 3, but we have definitely been shown that no good comes to anyone who loves/marries these guys, so who knows! 

Loving your work! Looking forward to the gods eye analysis!

[LmL]

7 hours ago, Lady Fishbiscuit said:

Great essay!  I found myself laughing because the celestial symbolism in that viper/mountain scene is so overt that I'm amazed I didn't see it on my recent re-read!

 

Hey Lady FishyB! Glad you enjoyed it! I can't be the only one reading these scenes and losing my mind over how cool the symbolism is and how clear the mythical astronomy is, after all! This scene really is amazing. I think the first thing that I caught about this scene as Bran's vision of Gregor's helmet spewing darkness and thick black blood, followed by Oberyn's key strike being like lightning. Then I saw the oily black sun spear and I was like OH OH OH!!! LOOK!!  Then I see it's full of eclipses and all the rest... woo! 

Now I am going to continue writing episodes in various formats, but let me ask you: how did you enjoy the "chapter review" format vs. my usual one of following symbolic motifs first and foremost? Now that I have laid out the basics, I am looking to do more chapter based stuff, because there are so many other chapters like this which contain a running metaphor from beginning to end -   The Wayward Bride is unbelievable, for example, as is Jon's climb up the Skirling, Davos stealin Edric Storm from Stannis, Jon and weirwood grove of nine, etc... There's something about following an idea through an entire chapter which is compelling. It's easier to cry "COINCIDENCE!" when I'm hopping from one chapter to the next saying "look, heads on spears, just like last time." But when you go through a whole chapter and show repeated occurrences of the same set of symbols doing similar things, it's just really hard to deny. 

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I like this explanation for the hammer of the waters, it makes much more sense than a magic tidal wave sent by the COTF after the men had already crossed the land bridge.

Yes, and as I said, I had a problem with both the "cotf broke the land bridge" and the "Azor Ahai saved the world by killing his wife and breaking the moon" stories before I ever unraveled any mythical astronomy. One thing is that we can't rule out the idea of Azor Ahai using greenseer magic or partnering with greenseers in some way, or even cotf. Personally I think there is a whole class of non-cotf greenseer hidden in plain sight - the Green Men on the Isle of Faces - and I think their ancient deeds have been attributed to the cotf. But regardless of that idea, we have seen repreated crossover between the Old Gods and fire magic, as I have pointed out a few times. Therefore, we can't rule out the idea that the moon breaking and hammer dropping did involve green magic somehow, and this here may be some element of truth to the "cotf did it" story. But to stop the First Men? No.

I'm thinking whatever greenseers may have been involved would be considered rebels and traitors to the rest of the greenseers and cotf. They would have been naughty greenseers, just like the ones who probably created the Others or turned into Others. I am of the opinion that green magic is the basis for red and blue (fire and ice) magic.   

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If the dragon is a meteor symbol and, as we're told repeatedly, the dragon has 3 heads, I'm wondering did we have 3 major meteors (as well as many smaller ones) from the meteor shower when the 2nd moon was destroyed.  The iron islands are so far from the broken arm / hammer of the waters that I want to say the sea dragon myth is from their own meteor impact.  The fact that that one of the iron islands is called Pike and another Blacktyde play into this too.

This has long been my hypothesis in some form or another. I've de-emphasized it lately because you can really get lost hunting for impact sites, but we did have some fun with that on the comments threads of my original essays. I agree the Iron Islands is too far from the Arm of Dorne, and the specificity of the Thunderbolt and Sea Dragon myths also lead me to believe they witnessed an impact event directly. Not only the names of Pyke and Blacktyde, but also the word "Wyck / wick," "Nagga's Cradle," and a few others.  Best of all... go read the first Theon chapter of ACOK (Theon's first chapter period) and check out the "long sword thrusting into the belly of the ocean" passage right before he sees the red comet. It's pretty straightforward IMO. 

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Also, if the 3 dragon heads also symbolise the 3 celestial bodies (sun & 2 moons), my mind is also racing ahead to try to figure what, if anything, this foreshadows for our 3 current day dragon heads - I'm with you on this, it's Dany/Jon/Tyrion.  Will it mean one of them will be (almost) destroyed when causing the destruction of another? I've never been convinced we'll see a romance between any of these 3, but we have definitely been shown that no good comes to anyone who loves/marries these guys, so who knows! 

Yes, it does seem like the "three heads of the dragon" idea does refer to both the original "sun king with two moon wives" layout and the idea of three dragon meteor children. And yes, what I see is three large moon meteors of note, one of which breaks into the thousand thousand dragon meteor shower. There's a couple of scenes which spell this out directly. I also tend to think the three forging attempts for Lightbringer is parallel also. I think we might have had meteor impacts associated with water (sea dragon), land (lion's heart) and air - the explosion which created the meteor shower. I've seen that pattern a few times as well. I don't dwell on this too much however because there are so many threes in the books, you can go mad trying to sort them all out. It's so subjective that, while its fun to debate, here's not a whole lot I can say which is more than reasoned speculation. Basically I prefer to debate those ideas in the comments as we are doing here as opposed to clogging up my essays with interpretations that would be reaching. 

As for Jon and Dany and Tyrion, I see them lining up with three moon meteors more than sun and two moons. All three show us Azor Ahai reborn ideas. Dany is a moon that turns into a dragon. Jon is the child of black dragon and ice moon - he's an ice moon meteor, essentially. The frozen version of Azor Ahai reborn. Tyrion is an AA reborn figure as well, he's kind of like the sun's hideous demon spawn baby. So, if we were to think it terms of solar king with two moons wives, who is the solar king? Dany has taken on that mantle, but Tyrion is part lion. Jon does all the solar King stuff, but again he's an icy version, the darkened sun. So I don't know how any romantic trysts might play out except to agree with you and say it will likely "blow up in their faces."

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Loving your work! Looking forward to the gods eye analysis!

Woo hoo! Thanks for the great commentary! God's Eye is going to be a real motherfucker! It used to have all the Hammer stuff in it, so hopefully I've made the Gods Eye essay lighter on its feet by pulling the Hammer stuff out into its own essay.

[Lady Fishbiscuit]

2 hours ago, LmL said:

Now I am going to continue writing episodes in various formats, but let me ask you: how did you enjoy the "chapter review" format vs. my usual one of following symbolic motifs first and foremost? Now that I have laid out the basics, I am looking to do more chapter based stuff, because there are so many other chapters like this which contain a running metaphor from beginning to end -   The Wayward Bride is unbelievable, for example, as is Jon's climb up the Skirling, Davos stealin Edric Storm from Stannis, Jon and weirwood grove of nine, etc... There's something about following an idea through an entire chapter which is compelling. It's easier to cry "COINCIDENCE!" when I'm hopping from one chapter to the next saying "look, heads on spears, just like last time." But when you go through a whole chapter and show repeated occurrences of the same set of symbols doing similar things, it's just really hard to deny

Really enjoyed the chapter review format.  As you say, with all that repeated symbolism throughout the one scene, you can't deny that it's there by design rather than coincidental.  I like the extra bits too, when you paused the scene. Helped to break it up without actually going off topic.

On my latest re-read, I recently came across the Jaime chapter that you mentioned, where he dreams he's under Casterley Rock.  Oddly, considering it's such a fascinating piece, I couldn't even remember most of it from my first 2 reads.   It was so rich with symbolism and foreshadowing! 

You mentioned the Green Men too.  I'm really keen to know what they're all about and how it compliments or differs from the COTF.  Howland knows (of course he does). I'm really hoping he turns up soon to share some info with us.

[Garett Hornwood]

Thanks @LmL for letting me know, looking forward to simultaneously reading & listening to the new essay.

[LmL]

I myself am quite anxious to get to the green men. There's a surprising number of clues about them scattered about, and I think I have a rough idea of what is going on.  It's actually going to be a bit of a dramatic reveal... I think it will make some waves, we'll see. I've been working with the same body of symbols for a while now, but the greenseer thing is a whole new avenue to explore. 

Thanks for your feedback, I'm glad the breaks worked out well. I find that as long as you warn people ahead of time what you are going to do, it goes ok.  Originally it was wandering and drifting a bit, and then I went ahead and organized the non-Gregor&Oberyn material into dedicated and distinct side alleys. I'm definitely learning a lot in the process!

[LmL]

4 hours ago, Garett Hornwood said:

Thanks @LmL for letting me know, looking forward to simultaneously reading & listening to the new essay.

Ooh, simultaneous action! Yes! Is that what you usually do? It's a great way to really ingest something - occasionally I have read and listened to ASOIAF at the same time. 

Feel free to leave a comment anytime as you're listening, if something occurs to you or have a reaction. It's long and there's a lot of stuff in there... as usual. I think I'm getting better are formatting things, let me know what you think  

Cheers!

[Voice]

Lmao @LmL at "the Hand taking a giant kingly star shit all over the place."

 

Enjoying the podcast, but smh. How can you see the eclipse metaphor give birth to dragons and still NOT SEE that there was only one moon?! It's all right there!  

That there was a moon BEFORE the eclipse, and a moon AFTER the eclipse does not mean that there were two moons. The strawhead slave wasn't entirely wrong, but she also wasn't entirely right. 

[LmL]

1 hour ago, Voice said:

Lmao @LmL at "the Hand taking a giant kingly star shit all over the place."

 

Enjoying the podcast, but smh. How can you see the eclipse metaphor give birth to dragons and still NOT SEE that there was only one moon?! It's all right there!  

That there was a moon BEFORE the eclipse, and a moon AFTER the eclipse does not mean that there were two moons. The strawhead slave wasn't entirely wrong, but she also wasn't entirely right. 

Hey @Voice, glad to see you're listening! Wasn't sure if you were or not. Glad you like my star-shit joke, it seemed like it was right there for me.

As for the one of two moons thing. First, I have never dismissed the possibility of one moon. I still think there is more evidence of two moons, but a one moon scenario would not change a thing about most of the moon destruction symbolism, so either way... most of it is the same. But I keep finding the one solar king with two lunar wives pattern, and also examples of what seems like 8 wanderers disrupted by a ninth which represents the comet. Bloodstone E was the ninth ruler of the GEotD, Amethyst Empress the eighth. I think the nine swords of the King of Winter's crown plays into this idea as well. Of course any of the numerical clues can easily lead you astray, as with the color metaphors, so I only place a limited amount of stock in these kinds of clues. 

The eclipse alignment at the time of Lightbringer forging doesn't really lend itself towards either moon scenario, as far as I can see. In fact, I am pretty sure that Martin is doing a thing where the surviving moon, the one which wasn't obliterated, looks like a crescent above the sun/second moon eclipse conjunction. This crescent is the horns of the horned lord of the dragon. The crown of blue roses is actually the "ice moon" crescent which would have been positioned just above the sun/moon alignment. This in turn plays into the idea of sacrificing a horned animal like a bull or stag, according to my research. That's another angle which I feel points towards two moons.

One of my next few episodes will lay out the evidence for two moons, one of ice and one of fire. Like I said, I'm far from certain, but I'm going to present the evidence and let people make of it what they will. I definitely think one moon which was split in half or something is a possibility. I can see evidence for both (although more for two moons), so I am not forming a hard opinion. It's similar to how I can see evidence for both the Last Hero wielding a black sword and the LH wielding Dawn, and I won't make up my mind unless I feel strongly about the evidence. I actually enjoy leaving people with a range of possibilities and letting people take whatever position they like. I spend plenty of time saying "this was so" and "that was so," so I figure it's not a bad thing to say "I'm not sure" sometimes, or "it's one of these two things." 

Lastly, Doreah's astronomy skills don't enter into the picture. She's merely repeating an old legend she heard from a Qarthine trader. It's the Qarthine who tell of a second moon in the sky. 

[LmL]

1 hour ago, Voice said:

Lmao @LmL at "the Hand taking a giant kingly star shit all over the place."

 

Enjoying the podcast, but smh. How can you see the eclipse metaphor give birth to dragons and still NOT SEE that there was only one moon?! It's all right there!  

That there was a moon BEFORE the eclipse, and a moon AFTER the eclipse does not mean that there were two moons. The strawhead slave wasn't entirely wrong, but she also wasn't entirely right. 

Hey @Voice, glad to see you're listening! Wasn't sure if you were or not. Glad you like my star-shit joke, it seemed like it was right there for me.

As for the one of two moons thing. First, I have never dismissed the possibility of one moon. I still think there is more evidence of two moons, but a one moon scenario would not change a thing about most of the moon destruction symbolism, so either way... most of it is the same. But I keep finding the one solar king with two lunar wives pattern, and also examples of what seems like 8 wanderers disrupted by a ninth which represents the comet. Bloodstone E was the ninth ruler of the GEotD, Amethyst Empress the eighth. I think the nine swords of the King of Winter's crown plays into this idea as well. Of course any of the numerical clues can easily lead you astray, as with the color metaphors, so I only place a limited amount of stock in these kinds of clues. 

The eclipse alignment at the time of Lightbringer forging doesn't really lend itself towards either moon scenario, as far as I can see. In fact, I am pretty sure that Martin is doing a thing where the surviving moon, the one which wasn't obliterated, looks like a crescent above the sun/second moon eclipse conjunction. This crescent is the horns of the horned lord of the dragon. The crown of blue roses is actually the "ice moon" crescent which would have been positioned just above the sun/moon alignment. This in turn plays into the idea of sacrificing a horned animal like a bull or stag, according to my research. That's another angle which I feel points towards two moons.

One of my next few episodes will lay out the evidence for two moons, one of ice and one of fire. Like I said, I'm far from certain, but I'm going to present the evidence and let people make of it what they will. I definitely think one moon which was split in half or something is a possibility. I can see evidence for both (although more for two moons), so I am not forming a hard opinion. It's similar to how I can see evidence for both the Last Hero wielding a black sword and the LH wielding Dawn, and I won't make up my mind unless I feel strongly about the evidence. I actually enjoy leaving people with a range of possibilities and letting people take whatever position they like. I spend plenty of time saying "this was so" and "that was so," so I figure it's not a bad thing to say "I'm not sure" sometimes, or "it's one of these two things." 

Lastly, Doreah's astronomy skills don't enter into the picture. She's merely repeating an old legend she heard from a Qarthine trader. It's the Qarthine who tell of a second moon in the sky. 

[Maester of Valyria]

On 09/05/2016 at 3:56 AM, LmL said:

Hey @Voice, glad to see you're listening! Wasn't sure if you were or not. Glad you like my star-shit joke, it seemed like it was right there for me.

As for the one of two moons thing. First, I have never dismissed the possibility of one moon.

I confess that I've just been dipping in and out of this essay, but I think that a single moon which was hit by a largish body, resulting in debris being blasted off and some entering the atmosphere of Planetos, is perhaps a better explanation as it doesn't involve a whole mood being obliterated (an event that would surely destroy all life on the surface of the planet). The 'spear' seen 'splitting' the moon as displayed in your avatar could be another comet fragment that narrowly missed the moon.

[LmL]

1 hour ago, Maester of Valyria said:

I confess that I've just been dipping in and out of this essay, but I think that a single moon which was hit by a largish body, resulting in debris being blasted off and some entering the atmosphere of Planetos, is perhaps a better explanation as it doesn't involve a whole mood being obliterated (an event that would surely destroy all life on the surface of the planet). The 'spear' seen 'splitting' the moon as displayed in your avatar could be another comet fragment that narrowly missed the moon.

I definitely follow your logic here. Logistically, one moon is simpler. But that's not how we solve these things, in my opinion. We have to follow the symbolism and the metaphors which refer to the celestial events - and most of those seem to show two distinct moons. I'm not certain, as I said, but there is way too much two moon symbolism to dismiss because one moon seems easier, if you see what I mean. 

P.S. I am not sure how much you'll get by dipping in and out of my essays, because I always introduce ideas in the earlier parts which I then refer to in shorthand later. But thanks for reading all the same

[Jak Scaletongue]

On 2016-05-05 at 9:22 AM, LmL said:

Well, I'm really not sure how this whole "following people" is supposed to work if people are not notified when someone they follow publishes a post. I have a bunch of people"following" me but it doesn't seem like anyone got the word. So... here come the tags.

@AlaskanSandman @Arya-Jon @Blue Tiger @Daendrew @DarkSister1001 @Darkstream @Durran Durrandon @evita mgfs @Falcon2908 @Flying Cat @Garett Hornwood @Greystark Reborn @J. Stargaryen @Jak Scaletongue @JonDayne @Lady Dyanna @Lord Wraith @LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse @Meera of Tarth @MethylEthylBS @Miss007els @Red Raven @Rhoynish Blood @Ruhail @Sly Wren @The Lady Titus @The Ned's Little Girl @wiredup 

And some of my other friends and fellows...

@sweetsunray @Evolett @Seams @Isobel Harper @Voice @Rhaenys_Targaryen @SFDanny @Ygrain @Greymoon @Rippounet

Much thanks!  I will make sure to read this tonight when I get home.  Always love your stuff!

[Voice]

3 hours ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

Much thanks!  I will make sure to read this tonight when I get home.  Always love your stuff!

The podcast version was much easier for me to get through.

[LmL]

1 hour ago, Voice said:

The podcast version was much easier for me to get through.

I will read my essay to you while you rake leaves or ride the bus!

[hiemal]

On 5/8/2016 at 8:59 PM, LmL said:

I myself am quite anxious to get to the green men. There's a surprising number of clues about them scattered about, and I think I have a rough idea of what is going on.  It's actually going to be a bit of a dramatic reveal... I think it will make some waves, we'll see. I've been working with the same body of symbols for a while now, but the greenseer thing is a whole new avenue to explore. 

 

Ditto. It seems we may be very thinking along very similar lines on this, as with so many other things.

[Voice]

14 minutes ago, LmL said:

I will read my essay to you while you rake leaves or ride the bus!

LOL! And I thank you for it!

I did stretch it out over a commute to a lecture, a repair of a fence, a cleaning of the pool, and another commute.

I am not complaining. I'll be going through your others this week. You should make a thread for each of them at the Hearth. Will be much easier to respond. www.thelasthearth.com

[LmL]

1 hour ago, Voice said:

LOL! And I thank you for it!

I did stretch it out over a commute to a lecture, a repair of a fence, a cleaning of the pool, and another commute.

I am not complaining. I'll be going through your others this week. You should make a thread for each of them at the Hearth. Will be much easier to respond. www.thelasthearth.com

"Wax the car, paint the fence... I hate this town, ma, I hate it!"

[LmL]

1 hour ago, hiemal said:

Ditto. It seems we may be very thinking along very similar lines on this, as with so many other things.

If you have any ideas you want to chat about, send me a message.