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(Spoilers All) Textual Evidence Davos Could Be A Targ....


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On 5.5.2016 at 4:24 PM, Merengues said:

Jeez man, dial it down a bit, sarcasm is healthy, sarcasm is love. As I see it, you throw an hypothesis based pretty much in no fact but the fact that shadowbinding is an absolute mistery to everyone and that Mel is always truthful and plays no hidden agenda. Well she may be certain that whatever she spews is the truth, but she definitely has an agenda and hides the ugly facts from even Stannis... So yes, I rather skip joining a discussion so lopsided, but well here I go and for your sake I'll avoid puns and sarcasm...

The power behind kings blood is shady at best, Stannis was not born a king, and being the grandson of a non-queen Targaryen is no roundabout. Anyone can be a king, Robert became king not because he was a distan-Targ cousin, but because he smashed the crap out of Rhaegar in the Trident and then took the throne by right of conquest (Ned could have been king if he wanted too). Same with Aegon I, he was no king, in fact the Targaryens were petty dragonlords barely important enough to hold the farthest Valyrian colony in the known world, and just like Robert he became king on his own right... Surely among the tide of Stannis supporters there's a long descendant of some petty king from pre-Targ era, given how the Gardeners sired half the houses in the south and Aegon preferred to join forces instead of just killing noble houses, why their blood was not used? Surely Selyse has more than enough kingsblood and outright conviction for her blood to be used in another ritual, but was ignored, why? Because Mel doesn't look for royal blood but magical blood, and as we know, Targaryen blood is far from being the only one with magic out there; Stark and Reed just being other candidates, so Davos could be just some offshoot of a northerner with some whore from KL with enough magic to pass into Davos.

Davos also does not have any resemblance whatsoever to any Targaryen. And before you name Jon; remember that he's a Stark and Stark features are overtly dominant over pretty much anything but Tully genes (as a biologist that really was a shocker to me). And we can't seriously use the "just because one is not the same, then everything else don't need to", Jon is the exception to the rule, not the rule itself... But let's forget about it for a while, let's say looks ain't everything. But magic is real; we see it in Dany's dreams, in Bran's warging, in Arya's wolfdreams, and in Mel, Moqorro and Thoros, none of them except Dany are dragonlords yet they show some kind of magic while Davos greatest achievement so far was to smuggle some onions and learn to read just in time, none of them involving any kind of magic, so point against him... There's another possible secret targ with none of those features, and that one is Tyrion one of the most popular, yet we know that Johanna and Aerys were close, and the last one had a sick obsession for her, there's enough documented history to believe that it could have happened. But not for Davos; I don't remember Aerys being known to whore, his obsessions seemed limited to his sister and her lady-in-waiting and fire. And at the time Davos must have been born, there were only four living male Targs (six if we believe Davos is way over sixty), Aegon V, Aemon, Duncan, Jahaerys, Aerys and Daeron but Daeron died in 251 and little is known of him, Aerys was in love only with his sister, the same for Jahaerys and Duncan was also mad for Jenny of Oldstones, Dunk was married to Betha Blackwood and would not be in his character to whore, and Aemon was at the wall. So what Targ sired him? At the time no Blackfyre pretender lived in Westeros either. I don't know about you but I think my factual evidence is bigger than your assumption.

And finally, let's propose another reason. So far the only person in Westeros that has seen the birth of a shadow is Davos. Stannis is barely aware of what would happen but didn't see it happen, so mostly is a secret held between Davos, Mel, Stannis and I think Selyse approved it too. Knowing that the truth could kill forever Stannis' hopes of winning the people's loyalty, it would certainly make sense to keep out of the loop anyone without absolute loyalty to Stannis. And who is the only male known for it? Yes, Davos. So it makes sense that he is the stand-in, not because he has magic or is a long-lost king but because the magic shadow likely follows the convictions of the man who casts it, and only Davos would do Stannis bidding to kill someone else... Overall shadowbinding is an obscure issue (haha so funny!) we can't make assumptions on it, only supported in the fact that is possible because we don't know much about the matter.

You must be fun at parties.

Davos birth

Born In 260 AC or before[2], at King's Landing
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On 6/10/2016 at 0:26 PM, norwaywolf123 said:

Davos birth

Born In 260 AC or before[2], at King's Landing

That date isn't cannon, it's more like a placeholder because none of the books have given us Davos's actual age. For the record they came up with 260 because in one of the books Davos states that he's been sailing for 40 years. So based on that he must have been born in 260 or earlier. Still even that much can't be known for certain. I mean I doubt GRRM wouldn't have casually thrown in that 40 year line if he didn't intend for Davos to be older than 40. But I've heard that he's said that he screwed up some timeline stuff in the past, granted that was in regards to his timeline of the Targaryan Kings reaching back 300 years not stuff relating to current characters.

 

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Why do we assume Targaryens are the only ones with King's blood? There were kings before the Targs, their blood is stills out there; one family in each kingdom at least. There are no Targ Kings at the moment, so we know that sitting the throne isn't what makes someone a King for Mel's purposes.

re: Davos's age. If he was born into a ghetto, he wasn't sailing at birth. I'd guess he was at least old enough to be useful on a boat when he started sailing, which would push his birth back maybe 10 years. 

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Honestly, I think it more likely that Davos has secret Frey blood.  I mean, come on.. He's in his 90s and has been banging like it extends life.  

And for him, maybe it has. 

In all seriousness, why would there be so many Targ characters?  It undermines Dany as the "last Targ", Jon as a "secret maybe probably Targ" and Aegon as the "maybe possibly faux Targ".

It would make for an extremely anticlimactic scene.

"I am Targaryan!"

"yeah, so?  Apparently so is everyone else in this room.  You're point?"

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On 9/7/2016 at 6:57 PM, cgrav said:

Why do we assume Targaryens are the only ones with King's blood? There were kings before the Targs, their blood is stills out there; one family in each kingdom at least. There are no Targ Kings at the moment, so we know that sitting the throne isn't what makes someone a King for Mel's purposes.

Yeah I've considered this too and here's my best guess. It's kind of strange to think that arbitrarily placing a crown on someone's head suddenly makes their blood magical. And if it does then what exactly are the limitations here, if a single small city were to declare themselves a kingdom and their leader a king does he and his children now have magic kings blood? That seems pretty arbitrary. So I think that "King's Blood" in truth actually means "Targ Blood". Stannis and Robert Baratheon's grandmother was Rhaelle Targaryen and so they're both 1/4th Targ. That's the reason Baratheon's have "King's Blood" not because Stannis declared himself the rightful King. We know that Valeria was ruled by several noble families called "Dragonlords" and that these families had conducted some form of blood magic which granted their family lines with certain magical abilities, such as taming dragons and predicting the future through dreams. It is for this reason that Targ blood possesses special magical characteristics that makes them uniquely powerful when casting blood magic. If Vary's is a blackfire then it explains why a sorcerer bought him from a circus troupe so he could cut off his balls when casting a spell (eunuch's are common enough in essos that if you need human testicles then they should be easy to come by). Finally I think it's important to note that having magical blood isn't quality that only Targs possess. The Northernmen/wildlings have no Targ blood and yet they possess a degree of magic in their bloodlines that allows them to warg or be greenseers (Bloodraven's mother is from a Northern family). So when melisandre says she can feel power/fire within both Davos and Jon it's not that she knows they have "King's blood" it's that she can sense that there is powerful magic in their blood. So I'll concede it's possible that the power she senses in Davos could come from another bloodline with magic in it. 


 

 

On 9/7/2016 at 9:09 PM, Lurid Jester said:

In all seriousness, why would there be so many Targ characters?  It undermines Dany as the "last Targ", Jon as a "secret maybe probably Targ" and Aegon as the "maybe possibly faux Targ".

It would make for an extremely anticlimactic scene.

"I am Targaryan!"

"yeah, so?  Apparently so is everyone else in this room.  You're point?"

I think I've covered this before, but yeah I think the strongest argument against my theory is when you take the point you just made and you pair it with the fact that from a narrative point of view the only reason for their to be more "secret targs" is so that you can have 3 dragon riders. And given that Dany is a Targ, Jon Is almost certainly a targ and there's much stronger evidence for either Aegon or Tyrion being a Targ then why does the story need a 4th Targ? What narrative purpose would it serve other then to undermine the importance of these other targs? I can think of only good two answers, take them as you will:

1. For the sake of providing different vantage points of the conflict with the whitewalker, GRRM wants Jon to be leading men on the ground with Ghost by his side not flying around in the sky with Dany and who ever else. 

2. While GRRM values Dany, Jon and tyrion, neither of them really embody his ideal ruler and thus he doesn't want them sitting on the Iron Throne. When reading about past Targ Kings, it's pretty obvious that GRRM holds Aegon "Egg" V above all the rest. And he's written a whole series of short stories to illustrate that the reason Aegon V was such a just ruler is because unlike other Kings, he spent his youth among the common people and thus he understood their troubles and the suffering they endured because of Noble rulers. GRRM also seemed to have a soft spot for Ned Stark, the Hand to a Baratheon King, who always spoke up against his King, even if it could cost him his life, when he thought his actions were unjust. Davos Seaworth in many ways strongly embodies both of these characters and it's likely no mistake that GRRM chose to introduce him after the death of Ned, to act as a sort of "Ned" to Stannis. GRRM Notes that Aegon V's only failures came about because he lacked the dragons to make his vision of westeros a reality and thus the Noble families fought back against his commoner friendly policies. So with Davos you get a king with Ned's sense of right/wrong, Egg's understanding of the common folk and the dragons to make his visions a reality. Also there's no way Noble families would accept Davos as King unless he had Dragons. 

As for the others, Dany is barren and thus a poor choice. Jon has limited world experience, also Ser Beric Dondarrion slow deterioration and eventual death makes me wonder if Jon's revival might might be temporary in nature. I love Tyrion and he's got the mind to accomplish almost any task he's given. But he's kind of self absorbed, while he was a fantastic hand the actions he took were always those that would provide protection for himself and the Lannisters with out any regard for what was best for the realm. Still with Davos as king providing the vision and Tryion as the hand using his talents to make those visions a reality then Westeros has a bright future.   

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@Brian Rioghbhardan The problem I have with Tyrion being a Targ. 

  1. Diminishes the irony that of all Tywin's sons, the one he most despised was the one most like him. 
  2. In order for him to BE a Targ means that he is NOT of the line of Aerys and Rhaella.   

Personally I think that AAR is the dragon with three heads, those heads being Dany, Jon and probably Tyrion Lannister.  After all...

Quote

Three heads of the dragon... yes... but the third head will not necessarily BE a Targaryan.

 

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On 07/05/2016 at 10:31 AM, myrish.lacey said:

And according the TWOIAF many of the Targs slept around. ALL of the great families have Targ blood and so do many "nobodies" especially on Dragonstone and King's Landing. Theres probably enough low-born bastard offspring and descendants to make their own separate kingdom. So it's absolutely possible that Davos has Targ blood in him even if his father wasn't Aerys II. He could be a bastard of a bastard.

The Stark's don't have Targaryen blood.

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@Lurid Jester  Damn this is the first time I've heard about this GRRM Quote. That does raise some interesting questions. But I'm curious what exactly do you mean by: 

2 hours ago, Lurid Jester said:

In order for him to BE a Targ means that he is NOT of the line of Aerys and Rhaella.   

Is that a typo, because it sounds like you're saying that Tyrion isn't a Targ but in order for Tyrion to be a Targ it means that he's not of the line of Aerys and Rhaella? Which right now doesn't really make sense to me. I haven't heard anyone claim that tyrion was born from Aerys and Rhaella and if somehow he was then by definition that would make him a Targ. Also do you know if the GRRM quote is suppose to mean that the 3rd head won't have any Targ blood in them or that that their last name just won't be Targaryan?

As to your first point, I don't think biology makes a man a father it's who raised you and thus it still makes perfect sense to me that Tryion could turn out to be the most like Tywin even if he's not his biological father. Honestly I think it actually adds to the irony that the child Tywin raised that turned out most like him was the one kid he didn't sire himself. And the fact him not being tywin's real son explains why tywin hated him so much despite tyrion being so similar to him 

Finally I actually share your thoughts on AAR, though my own take on it is that the prophesy isn't really about AA, in the legend of AA it wasn't really him that possessed the power to defeat the others it was the weapon he forged "THREE" times Lightbringer. Essentially the Lightbringer represents the Individuals that will act as mankinds weapon against the others and since it was forged 3 times there will be 3 individuals or The dragon with 3 heads. From there I've played with different notions such as the possibility that this could mean "Azor Ahai" was in fact the Mad King Aerys and that the legend about sticking his "sword" into "Water", "A Lion", and his "Wife" is a metaphor for Aerys sticking his Dick into a woman representing Water, a Lannister's representing a lion ( tyrion), and his wife (Dany). Water is tricky, if you remove Aerys from the equation and just say it had to be targ then you could say that Rhaegar is fire and Lyanna is Ice when you mix the two you get water. Or if you just went with Rhaegar being AA in my "metaphor", then you could point out that jon was his 3rd time he "forged" a child and he did so with the woman he loved like AA loved his wife. Though honestly I'm still pretty open to any theory, but I am liking the idea of AAR being 3 people. 

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 Two kings to wake the dragon. The father first and then the son, so both die kings.

I've wondered if this is a different look at "the dragon has three heads". Rather than being three people at the same time, it's a series of three kings. But in this case it sounds like actual anointed kings, I'd assume in addition to having the mystical king's blood. Rheagar and Aerys dying the "wrong" order seems like another example of botched prophecy.

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17 minutes ago, BlueNightzx said:

Davos is the most peasant a man can be.

i love the onion knight, and i think his heart is one of the most noble in the series

I totally agree, just like Ned he is always there to act as people's "concious" when they  start to go down dark paths. Because of this, his lowest of low births and the fact that he's seen more of westeros than any other character is why I think he'd make a great King. Especially if he had someone like Tyrion, who is very skilled at accomplishing tasks in court and manipulating or strong arming the nobility of court, as his Hand. But for Westeros to accept him as their king he'd probably need a dragon which means he'd probably need to be a Targ. And Melisandre's words to him about sensing a powerful fire in him that she could use to make shadow babies, something she's only offered to do with Stannis and Jon Snow, suggest there's something about him that makes him special or less than "common". And The World Of Ice And fire States that Mad king Aerys was said to have more mistresses than any other Targ King other than Aegon the unworthy (who was rumored to have slept with 900 women). And Davos was born in the shadow of the Red Keep.   

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4 hours ago, Brian Rioghbhardan said:

@Lurid Jester  Damn this is the first time I've heard about this GRRM Quote. That does raise some interesting questions. But I'm curious what exactly do you mean by: 

Is that a typo, because it sounds like you're saying that Tyrion isn't a Targ but in order for Tyrion to be a Targ it means that he's not of the line of Aerys and Rhaella? Which right now doesn't really make sense to me. I haven't heard anyone claim that tyrion was born from Aerys and Rhaella and if somehow he was then by definition that would make him a Targ. Also do you know if the GRRM quote is suppose to mean that the 3rd head won't have any Targ blood in them or that that their last name just won't be Targaryan?

One of the prophecies of the AAR is that he or she will be of Aerys and Rhaellas line.  I believe that bit came from the Ghost of Highheart.

As far as I know the most popular theory behind Tryion's Targ blood was that Aerys raped or somehow seduced Tywin's wife.  That would by definition exclude Tyrion from Aerys and Rhaellas line.  Sure Tyrion could have Targ blood but it wouldn't fulfill the AAR prophecy, which seems to be the point of the theory. 

That seems to be a counterproductive theory.

Quote

As to your first point, I don't think biology makes a man a father it's who raised you and thus it still makes perfect sense to me that Tryion could turn out to be the most like Tywin even if he's not his biological father. Honestly I think it actually adds to the irony that the child Tywin raised that turned out most like him was the one kid he didn't sire himself. And the fact him not being tywin's real son explains why tywin hated him so much despite tyrion being so similar to him 

I think him being a dwarf and "causing" the death of his mother is reason enough for Tywin to hate him.  Any child which was less than perfect in Tywin's eyes would have reason for disdain.

 

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On 5/8/2016 at 5:59 PM, Brian Rioghbhardan said:

... my theory is based on looking at what 2 of these characters have in common and then suggesting the 3rd Davos must also have it. ... But for now I'm going to fall back on my patchface quotes as reason to think it might be kings blood.

I just read through the whole thread, and I think you're onto something. There is something unique about Davos' character and story line, and GRRM is being careful not to reveal too much too soon. So the best way to narrow the possibilities is to look for things that seem special about Davos, and to see if the author has given us clues in other character arcs that might provide hints about Davos.

1) Fool's Blood, King's Blood. I think you are right on to strongly connect Davos to Patchface, and to take Patchface's cryptic remarks as hints about Davos. Both Patchface and Davos have "drowned" and then emerged from the sea reborn. (I believe that "crowned" and "drowned" are a deliberate wordplay pair, and that it's easier to survive being drowned than being crowned, in most cases.) A long time ago, I wrote up thoughts about Patchface as a symbolic embodiment of Robert Baratheon, who admitted that he felt alive when he was seeking the throne but dead once he took it. If Patchface represents Robert's continuing presence in symbolic form, he would probably want a Baratheon on the throne, but Robert didn't see Stannis as a good candidate when he was alive. Maybe Patchface hangs out with Shireen because she is the only legit Baratheon child who could inherit, and Robert did love children (if the Mya Stone recollections are any clue).

But maybe the focus on Shireen changes in that scene where Patchface suddenly sees Davos and reacts to him. Keep in mind, this would be the first time Patchface has seen Davos after he "drowned" during the Blackwater. The specific details of the scene describe Davos ushered into "Aegon's Garden" at Dragonstone, where he observes a number of trees and plants with important symbolism. (For example, the "towering thorny hedge" is probably an Iron Throne symbol - thorn / throne wordplay.) He is left alone by guards who are "strangers to him." (Strangers are symbols of death, as aspects of the new gods.) Patchface is running away from Shireen, who wants him back when he suddenly sees Davos and utters the "Fool's blood, king's blood" line. Then he runs off and Davos has a longer conversation with another messenger of King Robert, Edric Storm, who is adorable as a mini-Robert and courteous and kind to Davos. (Edric tells Davos that he has been playing the "monster" in the game of Monsters and Maidens, which is not a good omen. Joffrey and Dany's baby Rhaego were monsters, and things did not turn out well for them as potential heirs to the throne.)

The only fools we have seen slain are Aegon "Jinglebell" Frey and Ser Dontos "Florian" Hollard, right? (Sometimes I think that singers and fools are cut from the same cloth, but I'm not sure.) Jinglebell doesn't get a lot of time "on stage" but he is probably tied to his fool colleague, Patchface, who wears jingling bells on his antler hat. I know some of this symbolism stuff takes us on what seem like tangents, but I think it ties back to the central story we are trying to piece together. Bells are tied to King Robert through the Battle of the Bells, Robert's ReBELLion and the illegitimate daughter, Bella. (Bells and peaches seem to represent two separate Baratheon characteristics, and don't seem to want to come together into a united front. Except, perhaps, in Edric Storm, who has - peach-like? - prominent cheekbones and also a - bell clapper-like - warhammer.) Jinglebell's real name, Aegon, is also significant in your search for Targ blood (or, at least, Targ symbolism). Analysis of the death of Jinglebell probably deserves its own thread, but I mention it here because it may help to clarify the meaning of Patchface's prophecy (if that's what it is) and its relationship to Davos and the Baratheons. (I don't doubt that Patchface's words also describe the Red Wedding, but I suspect the words will have a meaningful application closer to the Davos storyline.)

2) Smuggler / Juggler. As far as I recall, Davos is the only character in the books who is identified as a smuggler. Certainly he is the primary smuggler presented to the reader. As he sneaks Melisandre into Storm's End in the dark of night, he recalls that the last time he made the trip he was smuggling life in the form of onions and, this time, he is smuggling death in the form of Melisandre. That's a pretty good hint that he prefers to see himself as a messenger of life, and Melisandre as the embodiment of death. Yet he helps to bring her to into this important Baratheon homestead. The thought is not original to me, but the entry of the small boat into the cave is described in a way that sounds very much like sperm impregnating a woman. I read somewhere in the forum that the onions could represent individual sperm, which would make Davos a fertility god of sorts. No wonder Melisandre wants to have his shadow babies. (In Australia, I believe the word "root" has a sexual connotation. I don't know if GRRM was using that layer of meaning, but it wouldn't surprise me.)

In keeping with the fool motif that is shown by the Patchface / Davos connection, there may be a further connection through the rhyming wordplay between "smuggler" and "juggler." I believe that the fools Butterbumps and Moonboy are described as juggling at points during the book. The most significant juggling discussion, however, comes when Ser Alliser Thorne tells Jon Snow that it would be easier to teach a wolf to juggle than to teach Sam Tarly to use a sword. Jon says he will take that bet because he would like to see Ghost juggle. So here we have the Thorne / throne symbolism again. Ghost is an aspect of Jon and Jon would like him to juggle but Ser Alliser thinks that would be impossible. I believe that Tyrion and Jon laugh again later about whether Ghost has learned to juggle. Foreshadowing? Tyrion will turn fool, finally wearing motley when he is aboard the Shy Maid, and joining the mummer jousting act aboard the Selaesori Qhoran. I don't believe we have seen him juggle yet.

If smuggling and juggling are a deliberate word pair, I would venture to guess that they have something to do with who has the skills to be a good king. Petyr Baelish tells Catelyn that he holds Varys' balls in his hands, but we all know that Varys no longer has balls. So Petyr may be bluffing and he does not have the skills to rule, or he may have some secret stash of Targ balls (which I would interpret to allude to dragon eggs).

What does it mean then, that Stannis cut off Davos' fingers, and that Davos was o.k. with that? It would be impossible to juggle if four of your fingers were reduced to stumps.

3) Onion / No one. I'm just starting to think this through. Arya's training in Essos involves a lot of conditioning to get her to forget her name and to think of herself as no one. Davos really has no idea who or what he was before he began working on ships as a kid. When he is knighted by Stannis and can choose an identity and a sigil, he chooses the onion. Sure, this was the centerpiece of his heroic work to save the besieged captives at Storm's End. But it's that possible wordplay that calls to me yet again. I really strongly believe that puns and wordplay are the skeleton around which GRRM has built the flesh of his novels. If we can figure out the puns, we will be able to see the shape of the whole animal.

I should point out, too, that onions are root vegetables. We know that eating weirwood paste made from roots is a key moment in Bran's growth. When he presides at the harvest feast at Winterfell, Bran decides which guest will get the first serving from each new dish brought to the table, and he sends a dish of root vegetables to the Walders, implying that he doesn't like them very much, as he sends tastier dishes to more favored guests. The Walders are symbolic gatekeepers, I think. (Their game is "Lord of the Crossing," and their family controls access to and egress from the north. They are the ones who retrieve Reek / Theon from the dungeon when he is at his lowest point.) As I say, I haven't worked this all out but, it seems to fit that roots are a food for gatekeepers. The weirwood paste allows Bran to open a door to the weirwood network, in a sense. Maybe the roots served to the Walders at Winterfell are the fateful symbol that opens the door to Theon and Ramsay Snow, who arrive soon after the Harvest Feast. Davos shares his shipment of root vegetables with starving people. Does this symbolize a benevolent ruler who wants to open doors for everyone?

Believe it or not, I think the "no one" connection ties into Patchface yet again. As "No One," Arya learns to become a Faceless Man. When Patchface washes up on shore after the shipwreck, people believe that he is the fool Steffon Baratheon was bringing back from Essos, but no one can be sure because he has lost his identity as well as his wits. The name Patchface implies that his face is made up of pieces; perhaps pieces from a variety of fabrics, like a patchwork quilt. Of course, there is also an allusion to Shireen's greyscale, which is like a patch of stone on her face.

The stone king with his facial features worn off is King Tristifer, whose tomb is at Oldstones. We see the effigy in a scene with Robb Stark and Catelyn. But Davos also has a special relationship with a stone gargoyle outside of an inn, the facial features of which have been worn away by salt and wind. He pats its head for luck. The person strongly associated with gargoyles is Tyrion, and we learn on one of his voyages that sailors will rub the head of a dwarf for luck. Since Davos also used to touch his bag of finger bones for luck, there may be an association with Tyrion and Davos's hand.

(Just one more bit of Targ symbolism associated with Patchface: the purpose of Steffon's Baratheon's trip was to find a bride for Rhaegar. He doesn't find a bride but brings back Patchface instead. So the fool again takes on a symbolic role as a Targ bride and perhaps an ongoing role in the effort to produce a Targ heir. Perhaps this role is continuing long after Rhaegar's death.)

Sorry about all the tangents: I'm thinking things through as I write. There are other things that are unique to Davos that would probably help us to spot foreshadowing or symbolic connections. He eats a bowl of sister stew, for instance, and learns something about Ned as he does so. His ship is named Black Betha, I believe. There's probably some meaning in that. His finger bones are lost, much as Ned's bones seem to be lost. I realize I'm late to the party here, though, and people may have moved on from this discussion.

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On 9/11/2016 at 3:29 PM, Seams said:

1) Fool's Blood, King's Blood. I think you are right on to strongly connect Davos to Patchface, and to take Patchface's cryptic remarks as hints about Davos.

The only fools we have seen slain are Aegon "Jinglebell" Frey and Ser Dontos "Florian" Hollard, right? ... Jinglebell doesn't get a lot of time "on stage" but he is probably tied to his fool colleague, Patchface, who wears jingling bells on his antler hat. ... Bells are tied to King Robert through the Battle of the Bells, Robert's ReBELLion and the illegitimate daughter, Bella.

Another recent thread about Patchface's cryptic remarks led me to re-read the prologue to ACoK, in which Maester Cressen interacts with Shireen, Patchface, Davos, Stannis, and Melisandre, among others. I had forgotten that Melisandre puts Patchface's stag helmet on Cressen's head before Cressen drinks the poisoned wine. Since the stag helmet is associated with King Robert and with Renly, I think Cressen's death both echoes Robert drinking the wine that leads to his death in the boar hunt, and foreshadows Renly's death through the magic Melisandre delivers via her shadow baby. But the helmet also means we should add Cressen to the short list of fools who die violent deaths. So this death of Cressen represents both fool's blood and king's blood.

(And all our yesterdays have lighted fools / The way to dusty death.)

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@Remiem Thanks Remiem, I understand the evidence is scant, but I think at the very least my reasoning on this is more solid then some other more popular theories. As to your question, I think it's a great one, when writing a theory you should always spend some time answering how something like this could be revealed in the narrative of the book. Obviously there's other theories that face this question as well, like Jon's and Tyrion being secret Targs. But at least Jon has Howland Reed as an easy out and it's believable that if tyrion is a targ that Aerys could have let it slip to him. But who's still around that would have had any reason to keep an eye on a lowborn bastard child of Aerys. Especially since we're told that he would switch mistresses after a fortnight? While it's true that King Robert's Hand, Lord Arynn, did just this task Aery's hand is Tywin is dead. Lord Vary's more than any other character, makes it his job of collecting as much information as humanly possible, but he wasn't in Westeros until much later. So it's unlikely it could be him, granted if the theories about him being a blackfyre are true then he might of had a vested interest in digging up a name of any Targ bastards. That leaves only two remaining possibilities of someone knowing, it's possible that either bloodraven knows this truth through his power of seeing shit and thus bran will find out. Or someone we haven't really met yet knows this fact. Still at this point I think the most likely way that this revelation will come to past is by Dragon. Either Davos meets Dany when she eventually travels to the wall or Jon sends davos as an emmisary to the south to seek Dany's Help. When this meeting occurs, Davos will have a run in with one of Dany's riderless dragons and that dragon will take a surprising liking to him. People will be shocked and start asking how this is possible since dragons only accept those with targ blood as a rider. Davos will be equally shocked and insist that he most certainly is no Targaryan, that his family lineage is lower than dirt and he was born and raised in flea bottom. Someone will make the connection for him and tell davos that Aery's was known as massive womanizer when he was younger and if he knew his father... yada yada you can see how it will go from there. If you want you can think of it as being like how Brienne realized that Gendry was Robert's bastards based on his looks and his birth in fleabottom. Only this time it's a dragon's affection and fleabottom. In the end, regardless of whether there exists someone who can confirm Davos's lineage or not, if the books end with him having control over one of only three dragons left in the world then as long as the other 2 dragon riders don't contest then no one's going to stop him from sitting on that throne anymore than they did Aegon I. 

 

@Seams You've got a lot of interesting ideas packed into your posts, while I'm not sure how many of them help this theory they do raise some interesting ideas and you've got a shocking good recollection of minute detail. Unfortionately I'm more of literal thinker and thus unlike you have never had a knack for really reading/understanding foreshadow through literary imagery. It's likely the reason I've failed to decipher most of Patfaces rhymes even though I've attempted to do so many times. So it's difficult for me to weigh in on them. Though I may read through your post again sometime to see if doesn't knock loose any inspiration. 

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I bet Davos will discover something about his origin when he reaches his destination in Skagos. One of the earliest specifics we know about Davos is that he worked for a guy named Roro Uhoris, who was executed by the Night's Watch at East Watch for smuggling weapons to the wildlings. One of those wildlings is bound to remember Uhoris, and will have a story for Davos about the young woman who died in childbirth on board Uhoris's ship the Cobblecat . . .

But I also suspect that the story of Davos's birth might never be spelled out completely. He and Ser Duncan the Tall are the two cool guys who came from obscure origins in Flea Bottom. As we learn more about Dunk, I suspect we will learn more about Davos. Using Dunk as a parallel character, GRRM might imply things about Davos and let us try to fit the pieces together.

Just one more of those literary puzzles I like to contemplate: Flea Bottom seems connected to the Children of the Forest through the flea / leaf wordplay. "Bottom" is another one of the "tomb" words such as the name "Tobho Mott," that might hint at something about "to hot tomb." It was the name Tobho Mott that led me to realize that the Winterfell crypt is a sort of forge where Stark children are forged into Stark weapons. If Davos and Dunk are both "weapons" that were forged in the "tomb" of Flea Bottom, we should probably be looking for any imagery or symbolism that hints at the two men being weapons. We would need to figure out who the smith is to figure out his bloodline. My guess is that the long-dead Roro Uhoris, known as the Blind Bastard (although he was neither blind nor a bastard) will be the smith in Davos's story. Maybe we should be comparing Uhoris to Ser Arlan of Pennytree, who might be the "smith" for Dunk.

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