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(Spoilers All) Textual Evidence Davos Could Be A Targ....


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Nobody specifically says that Davos is not a Targaryen bastard, and if they did, they could have been lying.  That seems to be the main piece of evidence that he is one.

Anyway, Mel talks about king's blood a lot.  It's one of her favorite things to talk about.  I have to think that if that's what she wanted for her shadow-offspring, she'd say so.  Or seduce Edric Storm. She just talks about power.  I see this more as power of character.  People who believe in things strongly enough to not fear death.  She doesn't want cowardly shadows.

 

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WHEN THE FOOL SAW DAVOS, HE JERKED TO A SUDDEN HALT, the bells on his antlered tin helmet going ting-a-ling, ting-a-ling. Hopping from one foot to the other, he sang, “FOOL'S BLOOD, KINGS BLOOD, blood on the maiden’s thigh, but chains for the guests and chains for the bridegroom, aye aye aye.”

6 hours ago, moonshield said:

As with many Patchface statements this could mean anything, but with this discussion going I just thought I should share it :)

 

5 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Patchface was talking about the Red Wedding.

OMG MOONSHIELD YOU'RE ACTUALLY ONTO SOMETHING....Yes Velt is right about patchfaces song being a prophesy predicting the red wedding. BUT if you actually look back at the  EVERY RHYME/SONG/Prophesy patchface gives it is ALWAYS prompted by a specific thing/topic that somebody else said. BUT there are other times where no one says anything, he simply see's someone and breaks into a rhyme that's connects to who that person is. It would be like if you saw someone dressed like a clown and that made you break into a crazy rhyme about McDonalds. For instance, when Patchface see's Jon Snow he instantly begins to say  “The crow, the crow,” Patchface cried when he saw Jon. “Under the sea the crows are white as snow, I know, I know, oh, oh, oh.”

There's only One time that Patchface breaks into a rhyme that is in no way connected to anything that was just said or to the person he sees an that's when he see's davos and says "Kings Blood, Fools Blood" (Unless davos secretly has kings blood and fools blood. NOW TO CONVINCE YOU I'M NOT MAKING THIS UP I PRESENT EVERY THING PATCHFACE HAS EVER SAID AND WHAT MADE HIM SAY IT........

-When one of Stannis's men states that he thought all the giants were dead, Patchface sings "In the dark the dead are dancing....I know, I know, oh oh oh.”  

-When Jon Snow arrives to inform the Queen that the Feast for Alys Karstarks wedding is beginning Patchface breaks into his song “Under the sea the mermen feast on starfish soup, and all the serving men are crabs."

-When Queen Selsye tells Patchface to take shireen to her room he says  “Away, away,” the fool sang. “Come with me beneath the sea, away, away, away.”

-When Queen Selsye and her men ask who will lead the men to Hardhome Patchface says "I will lead it!” His bells rang merrily. “We will march into the sea and out again. Under the waves we will ride seahorses, and mermaids will blow seashells to announce our coming, oh, oh, oh.” 

-When queen Selyse tell's Jon that he's arranged for Val to marry one of her men Patchface sings “Under the sea, men marry fishes.” Patchface did a little dance step, jingling his bells. “They do, they do, they do.”

-After fighting with Stanis about his plans to have his young nephew consumed by flames for Melisandre's magic he begins to walk up the maesters tower where he runs into Patchface whi who says  “Under the sea the old fish eat the young fish,” the fool muttered at Davos. He bobbed his head, and his bells clanged and chimed and sang. “I know, I know, oh oh oh.”

-When Davos approaches the Dragonstone courtyard where Melisande has built a massive bonfire out of all the wooden statues of the 7 gods for her lightbringer ceremony Patchface says  “Under the sea, smoke rises in bubbles, and flames burn green and blue and black,” Patchface sang somewhere. “I know, I know, oh, oh, oh.”

-When Queen Selsye tells Maester Cressen that the fools hat is fitting on him Patchface says  “Under the sea, no one wears hats.....I know, I know, oh, oh, oh.”

-During a meal where fish is being served he says  “Here we eat fish,” the fool declared happily, waving a cod about like a scepter. “Under the sea, the fish eat us. I know, I know, oh, oh, oh.”

-While Cressen is walking to Lord's table Patchface runs into his cane causing them both to fall down onto each other to which he says  “Under the sea, you fall up,” he declared. “I know, I know, oh, oh, oh.”

-When Maester Pylos goes to Rookery to bring down a raven Patchface sings  “Under the sea, the birds have scales for feathers...I know, I know, oh, oh, oh.”

-Maester Cressen shows Shireen the white raven and tells her this means the end of summer and that winter will soon be coming, patchface states  “It is always summer under the sea,” he intoned. “The merwives wear nennymoans in their hair and weave gowns of silver seaweed. I know, I know, oh, oh, oh.... Under the sea, it snows up and the rain is dry as bone. I know, I know, oh, oh, oh.” 

-When the bird speaks to Shireen in english Patchface says "Clever bird, clever man, clever clever fool,” said Patchface, jangling. “Oh, clever clever clever fool.”

-Cressen had been silently thinking negative thoughts about Melisandre, preistess of the god of fire and shadows, and has already hatched a plan to poison her. Patchface sings. “The shadows come to dance, my lord, dance my lord, dance my lord,” he sang, hopping from one foot to the other and back again. “The shadows come to stay, my lord, stay my lord, stay my lord.” 

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If Davos has King's blood, why didn't Melisandre use it to wake the stone dragon? Why has she never suggested that she could use Davos's blood in any way?

You've noted that Mel talks about king's blood a lot, but you've completely ignored what she actually says or does about it. Go to A Search of Ice and Fire and enter "King's Blood,  Melisandre" and you will find seven entries, every one of them about burning the person with King's blood. Melisandre's unwavering point is that burning the person with the blood will work powerful magic. She says that about Edric Storm and apparently about Val's baby. And we have strong hints she will burn Shireen for this very reason. Why, if Davos has king's blood, would she try to make Stannis burn his own nephew, especially when Davos could easily be burned as a traitor?

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On 5/5/2016 at 4:24 PM, Merengues said:

And finally, let's propose another reason. So far the only person in Westeros that has seen the birth of a shadow is Davos. Stannis is barely aware of what would happen but didn't see it happen, so mostly is a secret held between Davos, Mel, Stannis and I think Selyse approved it too. Knowing that the truth could kill forever Stannis' hopes of winning the people's loyalty, it would certainly make sense to keep out of the loop anyone without absolute loyalty to Stannis. And who is the only male known for it? Yes, Davos. So it makes sense that he is the stand-in, not because he has magic or is a long-lost king but because the magic shadow likely follows the convictions of the man who casts it, and only Davos would do Stannis bidding to kill someone else... Overall shadowbinding is an obscure issue (haha so funny!) we can't make assumptions on it, only supported in the fact that is possible because we don't know much about the matter.

You must be fun at parties.

Very good reasoning all around, except the bold which doesn't sit too well with me given what we know of Davos's character. To me, it seems as though, as stated above somewhere, it would be more logical for overzealous R'hllorists to be used to make shadow baby assassins than it would be for Davos to do so. Sure, he's extremely loyal to Stannis and would do most anything for him, but it seems to me that his honour  and his sense of right and wrong goes above even his loyalty to Stannis (as shown by his actions in smuggling Edric Storm away from Dragonstone). If the shadow babies' actions are in fact linked to the will of the man casting the shadow, Melisandre would be aware of the fact that Davos is no assassin/murderer no matter how much it would help Stannis's cause.

We know little and less of shadowbinding and what one needs to make it work except for the three examples presented to us in Stannis, Davos and Jon Snow.

1. Stannis has kings blood. And mayhaps his flames were also burning hot and high before he cast his killer shadow. These "flames" could be drive, passion, some sort of innate willpower- who knows- but at any rate one could say that Stannis had all of those qualities.

2. Davos, so far as we know, is as lowborn as it gets. According to Melisandre his "flames still burn hot and high"- this could mean what I said before (drive, willpower etc.) and still be applicable to Davos. There's nothing extremely unique about having those qualities though, which I suppose is what led to the OP's speculations.

3. Jon Snow in all likelihood has king's blood. When Melisandre makes her creepy pass at him, he's been walking around with Ghost. He has a moment where he touches Ghost and all senses become heightened. Cue Melisandre- instead of speaking of flames she speaks of power. Specifically that there is power in Jon related to his being a warg that he should embrace. When he asks her ''how'' is when she segues into shadow baby making, saying there's power in coupling too- power to cast shadows. The way I see it is that Melisandre is lying here. How can making shadow babies help Jon embrace his power as a warg or help him become more powerful in any other way? Stannis became weaker as a result of casting his shadow assassin. So Melisandre doesn't seem motivated by Jon's (alleged) kings blood here, but by his own innate power.

Is Davos a bastard Targ? Unlikely IMO. Mel implies that sees something in him which she'd like to use for her own motives, something which she likens to flames. Who's to say, however, that she doesn't see the same thing in Random Joes all around her? Who's to say even that she isn't just effing around with Davos when she makes the offer? When I read the scene, it definitely came across as somewhat taunting/teasing- "aww is poor wittle Davy scared of a shadow? don't worry, we won't be making any more with ol' Stan cause it just might kill him. you and me though -wink wink- come to my chambers sometime cowboy even though you're locked in a dungeon right just now". I mean, Mel is well aware that Davos hates her and wants to kill her so....she invites him to a shadow-making party in her robes? Curious, is all.

(Huzzah, my first post after ages and ages of lurking... slinking back into the shadows now.)

 

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Hey so first let me start by saying I'm not sure I believe what I'm about to say...

but I once proposed Davos was Aerys's kid on this forum and got equally shit on... But I came from a totally different angle...

remember lightbringer's forging story? 

The one Sallador Saan tells DAVOS, in his first chapter?

"That sword was not Lightbringer, my friend." 
The sudden shift in subject left Davos uneasy. "Sword?"
 
"A sword plucked from fire, yes. Men tell me things, it is my pleasant smile. How shall a burnt sword serve Stannis?"
"A burning sword," corrected Davos.
"Burnt," said Salladhor Saan, "and be glad of that, my friend. Do you know the tale of the forging of Lightbringer? I shall tell it to you. It was a time when darkness lay heavy on the world. To oppose it, the hero must have a hero's blade, oh, like none that had ever been. And so for thirty days and thirty nights Azor Ahai labored sleepless in the temple, forging a blade in the sacred fires. Heat and hammer and fold, heat and hammer and fold, oh, yes, until the sword was done. Yet when he plunged it into water to temper the steel it burst asunder. 
"Being a hero, it was not for him to shrug and go in search of excellent grapes such as these, so again he began. The second time it took him fifty days and fifty nights, and this sword seemed even finer than the first. Azor Ahai captured a lion, to temper the blade by plunging it through the beast's red heart, but once more the steel shattered and split. Great was his woe and great was his sorrow then, for he knew what he must do.
"A hundred days and a hundred nights he labored on the third blade, and as it glowed white-hot in the sacred fires, he summoned his wife. 'Nissa Nissa,' he said to her, for that was her name, 'bare your breast, and know that I love you best of all that is in this world.' She did this thing, why I cannot say, and Azor Ahai thrust the smoking sword through her living heart. It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel. Such is the tale of the forging of Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes. 
"Now do you see my meaning? Be glad that it is just a burnt sword that His Grace pulled from that fire. Too much light can hurt the eyes, my friend, and fire burns." Salladhor Saan finished the last grape and smacked his lips. "When do you think the king will bid us sail, good ser?"
First plunged his "sword" into water (seaworth?)
Second plunged it into a lion (Tyrion)
note: the first two could be considered flawed (Half man, half hand)
Then into his wife, killing her, and making lightbringer (Daenerys)
So was Aerys, Azor Ahai reborn? 
Whatever you believe, remember my friends, too much light can hurt the eyes, and fire burns...
 
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On 5/5/2016 at 11:57 PM, Brian Rioghbhardan said:

The idea of Davos being a secret Targ probably has less support than Varys being a Merman. 

Should have stopped right there 

On 5/5/2016 at 11:57 PM, Brian Rioghbhardan said:

This aside the obvious explanation as to why the hell Davos would have Kingsblood in him is that he was born and grew up in kingslanding during the reign of Aerys II which a world of Ice of Fire states "Some say [Aerys II] had as many mistresses as his ancestor Aegon the Unworthy. Unlike Aegon IV, however Aerys II always seemed to lose interest in his lovers quickly. many lasted no longer than a fortnight." If you know about Aegon the Unworthy, you know that he's said to have had more Bastards then Robert Baratheon did which is partially why Blackfyre shit happened.

Even if he was a royal ,bastard, he wouldn't be a Targ, so no 

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1 hour ago, Dorian Martell said:

Should have stopped right there 

Even if he was a royal ,bastard, he wouldn't be a Targ, so no 

Why, it's just speculation, it's possible Davos  mum was some tavern wench like Gendry that Aerys got to, no real textual evidence has been provided but he could be a Targ bastard or he may not be a targ bastard, who knows. Westeros has no DNA testing Ao it will always be just speculation. With The Targs getting around Kings Landing for 300 years a lot of the population of kings landing have a chance of having Targaryen blood.

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Davos and Gendry are quite similar personality-wise. Obviously Gendry is only part Targ BUT if this were true than he and Davos would be the only two characters who were King's orphaned bastards (that I can think of right now). That could just be their upbringing though, Dunk had a similarly good nature despite being from flea-bottom.

And according the TWOIAF many of the Targs slept around. ALL of the great families have Targ blood and so do many "nobodies" especially on Dragonstone and King's Landing. Theres probably enough low-born bastard offspring and descendants to make their own separate kingdom. So it's absolutely possible that Davos has Targ blood in him even if his father wasn't Aerys II. He could be a bastard of a bastard.

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10 hours ago, Neds Secret said:

Why, it's just speculation, it's possible Davos  mum was some tavern wench like Gendry that Aerys got to, no real textual evidence has been provided but he could be a Targ bastard or he may not be a targ bastard, who knows. Westeros has no DNA testing Ao it will always be just speculation. With The Targs getting around Kings Landing for 300 years a lot of the population of kings landing have a chance of having Targaryen blood.

No, it isn't just speculation. From an in universe perspective, bastards do not get the family name unless an act of a king changes that. Secondly, him being a royal bastard does nothing for the story. He is a bootstrap character, becoming hand of the king by his wits, skill and determination. 

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7 hours ago, Dorian Martell said:

No, it isn't just speculation. From an in universe perspective, bastards do not get the family name unless an act of a king changes that. Secondly, him being a royal bastard does nothing for the story. He is a bootstrap character, becoming hand of the king by his wits, skill and determination. 

Perhaps I should have elaborated and asserted that I believe it's possible that Davos may be a secret Targ! I'm not saying he is at all, I just think it is possible.

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2 hours ago, Neds Secret said:

Perhaps I should have elaborated and asserted that I believe it's possible that Davos may be a secret Targ! I'm not saying he is at all, I just think it is possible.

Anything is possible in a fantasy story but, like the great other being the bastard child of megatron and optimus prime, it wouldn't serve the story in any way. Davos is cool all by himself. No need for secret silver hair magic 

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1 hour ago, Dorian Martell said:

Anything is possible in a fantasy story but, like the great other being the bastard child of megatron and optimus prime, it wouldn't serve the story in any way. Davos is cool all by himself. No need for secret silver hair magic 

Mate, I agree, and I do not think that Davos is a secret Targ, and it is a fantasy story and because of that the OP is able to speculate on that. if the speculation he makes you find unlikely to you then perhaps you have no need to comment on it because some people may feel it does not serve the thread, but some people might feel that it does, anything is possible I guess 

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On 5/6/2016 at 7:50 AM, Forlong the Fat said:

 

If Davos has King's blood, why didn't Melisandre use it to wake the stone dragon? Why has she never suggested that she could use Davos's blood in any way?

You've noted that Mel talks about king's blood a lot, but you've completely ignored what she actually says or does about it. Go to A Search of Ice and Fire and enter "King's Blood,  Melisandre" and you will find seven entries, every one of them about burning the person with King's blood. Melisandre's unwavering point is that burning the person with the blood will work powerful magic. She says that about Edric Storm and apparently about Val's baby. And we have strong hints she will burn Shireen for this very reason. Why, if Davos has king's blood, would she try to make Stannis burn his own nephew, especially when Davos could easily be burned as a traitor?

 

You make a good point, I would counter with this. First off it's not Val's baby it's Dalla's baby the "wife" of mance and thus the son of the king beyond the wall. And we don't actually see Melisandre express any interest in burning Mance's baby for the sake of spell. But there are rumors  spreading around the wall that Melisandre seeks king's blood to do awaken dragons and thus seeks to burn Mance alive in order to do this. It's only because of these rumors that Jon decides to send away Dalla's baby and Aemon, just in case. And I personally disagree that Melisandra had any plans to burn Mance's child for any spell, if she thought she could awaken the dragons by burning mance's child then surely she would have thought she'd have an even better chance of awakening the dragon's by burning Mance. But she didn't burn Mance did she? So why spare his life when they could have gotten a dragon out of it? I think it's because "King's Blood" needed to awaken the dragons has to be Targaryan blood and in case you've forgotten your genealogy,  Stannis Baratheon is 1/4th Targaryan, which is why she would have thought burning edric might work. 

 

So why not burn Davos then? After all if it's targ blood you need and I'm right then he's 1/2 Targ which trumps Edric. I think it's likely for the same reason that we don't see her conspiring to burn Jon Snow for his "King's Blood". Based on her conversation with Jon snow when she tells him he's got Power in him, I think that Mel is able to sense when a person possesses some sort of innate magical power's in their blood, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's source is "King's Blood". If she met Bran she'd probably sense something similar. In other words she needs to know a persons genealogy to know that the source of this power is that they have "King's blood". I realize that assumption does leave open the possibility that Davos isn't a targ at all and that he simply possesses an innate power who's source is unknown. And I'm open to that being case. Though I do think Patchface's line to Davos might suggest he has "Fool's blood" "King's blood" in him. 

 

On 5/6/2016 at 6:38 AM, moonshield said:

 

I like it :) Unfortunately, I dont think it will be revealed in the books, because Davos' character revolves heavily around his apparent lowborn origin

 

 

On 5/7/2016 at 4:32 AM, Neds Secret said:

Why, it's just speculation, it's possible Davos  mum was some tavern wench like Gendry that Aerys got to, no real textual evidence has been provided but he could be a Targ bastard or he may not be a targ bastard, who knows. Westeros has no DNA testing Ao it will always be just speculation

Yeah that's actually one of the biggest issues for me too, I think when it comes to any theory like this you've got to ask yourself "Exactly how would the the book's reveal that this theory is true?". If Aerys II was discarding his mistresses after a fortnight and Davos's mom died in child birth or just never told him or anyone, then who exists in westeros that could possibly be aware that Davos is a targ and what would lead to this revelation? Jon Aryn kept track of Robert's bastards but Aery's hand at that time, tywin, is dead. Varys was still living over in essos at this time, but I guess he could have dug some stuff up? So that really leaves only two options, either Bloodraven's surveillance from his tree included keeping track of targ bastards. Or we won't get a direct reveal but maybe one of the dragons takes a liking to Davos or some spell or soothsear shows up and exclaims that davos has dragon's blood in him. 

 

On 5/5/2016 at 0:33 PM, CJ McLannister said:

She just talks about power.  I see this more as power of character.  People who believe in things strongly enough to not fear death.  She doesn't want cowardly shadows.

I'm not sure if I commented on this before, but I salute you for this, my theory is based on looking at what 2 of these characters have in common and then suggesting the 3rd Davos must also have it. But you've provided us with a trait that all three characters possess in large amounts, strength of will. So perhaps you're right. But for now I'm going to fall back on my patchface quotes as reason to think it might be kings blood.

 

On 5/6/2016 at 0:04 PM, Midnight Raven said:

Who's to say even that she isn't just effing around with Davos when she makes the offer? When I read the scene, it definitely came across as somewhat taunting/teasing-

Yeah I considered this possibility too, that it was an empty offer to get under Davos's skin, knowing that he'd refuse. But that she made a similar offer to Jon, makes me think otherwise. And like you said maybe she makes this offer to everyone, maybe she doesn't see power in any of them and is just trying to get laid. But I think it show's intent on GRRM part that he showed her having this convo with jon snow and Davos and no one else. GRRM is a master of misdirection, but this would be pretty subtle misdirection on his part. As to your other things, you're right that there's not enough knowledge of shadowbinding, as far as this theory goes, so I've presented 2 puzzle pieces the shadow convo and the patchface quotes but we still need more pieces to know for certain what the full picture is and thus I shouldn't expect people to jump on this. Granted I see a lot of people jumping on the Lemon tree theories.  

 

On 5/7/2016 at 3:26 PM, Dorian Martell said:

He is a bootstrap character, becoming hand of the king by his wits, skill and determination. 

Yeah that's my second biggest issue with this theory, like you said Davos is our resident Bootstrap character, rising to hand of "One of the Kings" by his own wits/skill/determination which makes him pretty cool. So what  purpose would it serve to have him be a secret targ? Best I can come up with is GRRM doesn't want Jon to be a to be a dragonrider, he's got Ghost, a bad ass valaryian blade, possible zombie immortality, the wildings/nights watch as a possible army to command so it might be more fitting to have him leading the charge from the ground with ghost by his side then in the air. Someone needs to inform Dany about the White Walker threat and Davos has become somewhat of an emmisary of late, so it make sense for him being sent out to talk to her and maybe a dragon takes a liking to him. Finally this is a long shot but with jon snow being zombie and dany having that curse on her perhaps neither can produce heirs. Tyrion was despised by most of Westeros before he became known as a kingslayer and kinslayer so maybe his talents would be better served as distrusted hand of the king like bloodraven. In which case maybe there's a place on the ironthrone for a bootstrap character, becoming king by his wits, skill, determination and a little targ blood along with his own dragon to make his claim palpable to all the lords.

 

On 5/6/2016 at 3:44 PM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

 

Hey so first let me start by saying I'm not sure I believe what I'm about to say...

but I once proposed Davos was Aerys's kid on this forum and got equally shit on... But I came from a totally different angle...

 

It's funny that you bring that up because I actually came up with that exact same theory in regards to the Lightbringer representing 3 different individuals and Aerys II being Azor Ahai. I started off with it on a reddit and put forth Jon Snow(his bastard name would be waters and Ice+fire = water), tyrion and dany but I felt like Jon Snow didn't follow the correct order and started looking for someone who did and fell upon Davos and then posted a more complete version of my theory on these message boards 

So in reality the two of us came to this conclusion independently but through the same thought process. But seeing as you posted in my original thread saying this, it looks like you did beat me to it. This whole post came about because I brought up the idea of Davos being a targ in a recent thread on Targ bastards and someone said "Yeah but besides Aerys II fucking everything in sight what evidence is there?" And I was like fuck I really don't and then I was like "wait didn't melisandre try to fuck davos for some spell..." and here we are. I'd like to think this thread add's some added texual weight to the weakest link in our our shared Azor Ahai = Aerys theory aka Davos being the targ representing "water".

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