The Endgame - a thought

[House Cambodia]

Hi everyone, I'm a brand new poster here; I haven't got the hang of all the board etiquette yet, so I apologise if I'm making a thread in the wrong place. I have some thoughts I'd like to share, if only to have them shot down. They are a mixture of superb hypothesis from other blogs and posts on this form, with some of my crackpot ideas thrown into the mix.

 

Here goes:

Dany - started off with deep ideals of justice, liberating slaves etc etc but her Mereen experience and the reversals elsewhere in Slavers Bay are turning her deeply cynical. She will reunite with her dragons and storm Westeros like the bloodthirsty power-crazy warlord she set out NOT to be.

Similarly Tyrion - deemed Saint Tyrion by some here owing to the superficiality of the show plot is actually undergoing a parallel journey, slowly becoming eaten up with hate. Sweet Sansa is 'growing up' - that girl's going to become a killer. In keeping with what I perceive in the way ASOIAF develops, new-Jon has to be darker. It will become apparent only very gradually in TWOW.

If my theory is right, as a corollary, some 'bad guys' need to turn good. I think a revived Sandor will foreshadow that. More significantly, we'll gradually come to realise how distorted the POVs of the Baratheons and Starks have been over the last 20 years (i.e. 5 books) concerning the Mad King and his ancestors. Barristan gave us hints by revealing to Dany that Rhaegar was a cultured soul and would have made a wise king as opposed to drunken thug Robert; I think it will slowly become apparent that King Aerys has been getting an unfair press all these years and was far more rational than we've been led to believe.

That's the past; how about the future? Right, here's where I get really crackpot - Westeros will turn out to be saved by ..... The Others. Bran will warg into them, find out their motivations and, in a sense, turn them. Whilst the greedy, power-hungry humans are playing their destructive game of thrones, a virulent strain of greyscale will arrive, possibly via Connington (or Jorah in the show) and threaten to wipe everyone out. The 'ice' of The Others is the only antidote.

That's probably OTT, but my point is GRRM's method of telling the story through many flawed POVs hasn't been fully appreciated yet, and we don't currently have the POV of the main adversary. Indeed, the common description of them as zombies implies they don't even have a POV and are just mindless destroyers. What a shock to learn that hidden away in GRRM's mind for 25-odd years, the truth is startlingly otherwise!

 

Thoughts? 

[Amris]

I appreciate your idea, think it very interesting and thank you for posting it.

Still I do not share your vision. I do agree with you that the Others probably will play an important role in the resolution of the conflict and turn out to be less one-dimensional and evil than it appears.

However entirely flipping the coin and making the the major POV characters the 'evil' side and the Others the saviour side will not happen I think.

I have two reasons for this opinion:

Firstly GRRM himself has classified his series as 'High Fantasy' and the ending as 'bittersweet' in a way similar to The Lord of the Rings. Setting the trope on its head completely would not be compatible with this self perception IMO. Having the supposedly 'evil' side turn out less evil than believed and actually contribute something important to the resolution would not go against this description of the series by GRRM himself but exchanging the 'evil' guys and the 'good' guys completely would.

Secondly while GRRM likes twists and surprises he also has stated that it is important to him to play 'true' with his readership and not lay false leads and then flip around just for shock value. To me this indicates that the major 'heroes' of the story have already been introduced at this point - in fact have already been introduced in book 1 - and that he will not suddenly cast them aside and come up with a completely new saviour figure in the last minute. While it is true that White Walkers already appear in book 1 there has as yet not been a named character on their side let alone someone whose story has been introduced and followed throughout the series. That rules out that they turn out to be the main 'heroes' of the story in the end IMO as that would go against the 'play true with the readership' motto.

Again - as in my reasoning no 1 above - this does not rule out the the 'heroes' will take a darker turn and do regrettable things on the way and that the supposedly evil others turn out to be less evil than thought and contribute something important - but it does rule out that Dany, Jon, Tyrion, Sansa, Arya and Bran get flipped around completely and end up being the 'evil' side, the world has to be saved from in the end.

Just my 2 cents.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[House Cambodia]

Thank you very much for your considered response. I wasn't aware of the comments spoken/written by GRRM that you mention. They undermine some of my speculations, but maybe not some others. I should have clarified that I see the eventual heroes/survivors as the (really not dead) Stark children - namely Bran, whose warging/greenseeing powers are instrumental in turning the Others, Arya (not sure how) and Sansa, who executes some tough justice on the likes of Ramsay and LF. Rickon ought to make it but it looks like in the show at least maybe he won't. Back-from-the-dead Jon's gotta go via noble sacrifice, and I'm sticking with my theory that Dany and Tyrion will develop into antiheroes who will have to die. The Lannisters (Tommen is already turning Joffrey), Davos and Brienne aren't central to the big picture and probably won't make it to the bitter end either.

[Special Snowflake]

I should say my predictions are often wrong, but  I will try to put my two cents....

The others won't became some good guys all of a sudden, but I do think we will have some compelling reason for why they are the way they are. Nothing will be completely black and white. We will understand them but still wont cheer for them. We already have our rag tag bunch of misfits as established heroes who are also not completely good or bad. Thats part of the charm.

I don't think the answer will be one ginormus battle between ice and fire, because they are two opposites, and that never works because they are mutually exclusive. There will need to be some kind of grand sacrifice and probably a way to find an answer somewhere in between (If this is a rehash of the Long night and the Pact with the cotf). For that I am looking at our pals Jon and Bran. They have been invested in that story from the beginning. I can see Jon dying nobly for a grater cause. Sincerely hope Bran leaves that cave. Don't think either of them will be lord of Winterfell.

Spoiler

Not sure I want to see Jon Targerien, King of seven Kingdoms. To much Aragorn alike. Not sure is this a spoiler for a book thread. R+L=J and all that jazz....

Dany, I must say in first book I totally cheered for her and I wanted her to win, but I don't think anymore that that will happen. In spite of her initially good intentions she wont get the Iron Throne. Agree that she will go compromising her belives for the sake of end justifies the means, fire and blood etc. I am actually 50:50 on her dying. I'll go with if iron throne survives she sits on it, if it doesn't she'll go out in a blaze of glory too. Can't see her ina a house with a red door with Daario. She is meant for bigger things. Maybe she is Azor Ahai.

Tyron is becoming more hatefull and deffinetly more darker, but I don't think he dies. I think it would make Tyvin turn in his grave if he becomes Lord of Casterly Rock. And after all the death and destruction he just might get the chance. And why not just to piss of Tywin from beyond his grave.

Although I don't like the idea of seven kingdoms (my favorite regions are the ones seeking most independence, North and Dorne), somehow I think that a great catastrophe like a long night might make people think we live together or we die alone and there is a chance for centralised kingdom, but this time forming more lasting bonds an cooperation. Or I am too optimistic and human nature will stay the same and a game will resume.

Twins, they die. Can't see them surviving. They came together, they'll go together.

Tv show makes me worried for Martells. 

There's too many characters to think now...

[House Cambodia]

6 hours ago, Special Snowflake said:

I should say my predictions are often wrong, but  I will try to put my two cents....

 

That's all part of the fun! I certainly like your ideas.

 

I see that we're both new posters; as a matter of interest, are any of you long-term posters aware of any specific posters who do have a spookily good track record of accurate(ish) predictions (would have to go back a few years, of course)?

[Pastaeyes]

I don't see the majority of the "good" POV characters being flipped but I really wouldn't be suprised if we find out they are reaping what their ancestors have sown so to speak including with the Others (I think they are men/children of the forest gone wrong) 

I mean the books are full of signs that things go in cycles and are repeating. We see it almost straight away in the new book in the Arieanne sample chapter with the house who's sigil is a Dragon eating it tail.

[Brian Rioghbhardan]

On 5/8/2016 at 0:49 AM, House Cambodia said:

What a shock to learn that hidden away in GRRM's mind for 25-odd years, the truth is startlingly otherwise!

I've considered the fact that the white walkers seem awful good vs evil in a book that's not very good vs evil. But honestly if we end up with some bullshit Enders game ending where it turns out the White Walkers were just killing human's because they can't speak no english and didn't realize that killing shit was bad because they come from a hive mind culture but luckily they managed to sneak inside Bran's dreams and tell bran they're super sorry and they've got families and shit then I might blow my head off. Unless of course Bran decides to murder every last one of them anyways. Total genocide. I'I d be cool with that...

Seriously though, I don't know if the white walker people are going to be some kind of "evil monsters" that hate us and want to wipe out mankind. I just think they race of creatures that require incredibly low temperatures to survive and currently most of the planet is not very hospitable and they'd really like to change that and unfortionately that means wiping out mankind. They likely don't see any point in trying to open up communications with us and just kill us on sight because they are aware that an ice cube planet doesn't really work for us. Also this isn't their first time doing this and last time they tried humans and children of the forest joined forces to cast them out, likely seal their power away and built magic walls to stop them so no point in opening up communications. Hell maybe last time they tried to iron out a deal where they got half the planet and we were like "Fuck no I'm not living Southros, have you heard the rumors about that place?" 

 

I do agree that I think more shit's going to come out about Aerys, he's likely still an incompetent ruler but probably not as mad as we're lead to believe or was being driven mad by outside forces. I think it's likely that Aery's knew about the white walker invation given that the Ghost on High Heart, a child of the forest, was hanging around the Targ court and informed Aery's that he had to marry his sister. The COTF probably didn't have an exact date on the white walker invasion but they likely knew shit was rumbling again. Kind of like Gandolf suspected Sauron was starting to make moves back in The Hobbit. But wasn't ready for full on war until lord of the rings which was like 40 years later.

[Brian Rioghbhardan]

On 5/8/2016 at 0:49 AM, House Cambodia said:

What a shock to learn that hidden away in GRRM's mind for 25-odd years, the truth is startlingly otherwise!

I've considered the fact that the white walkers seem awful good vs evil in a book that's not very good vs evil. But honestly if we end up with some bullshit Enders game ending where it turns out the White Walkers were just killing human's because they can't speak no english and didn't realize that killing shit was bad because they come from a hive mind culture but luckily they managed to sneak inside Bran's dreams and tell bran they're super sorry and they've got families and shit then I might blow my head off. Unless of course Bran decides to murder every last one of them anyways. Total genocide. I'I d be cool with that...

Seriously though, I don't know if the white walker people are going to be some kind of "evil monsters" that hate us and want to wipe out mankind. I just think they race of creatures that require incredibly low temperatures to survive and currently most of the planet is not very hospitable and they'd really like to change that and unfortionately that means wiping out mankind. They likely don't see any point in trying to open up communications with us and just kill us on sight because they are aware that an ice cube planet doesn't really work for us. Also this isn't their first time doing this and last time they tried humans and children of the forest joined forces to cast them out, likely seal their power away and built magic walls to stop them so no point in opening up communications. Hell maybe last time they tried to iron out a deal where they got half the planet and we were like "Fuck no I'm not living Southros, have you heard the rumors about that place?" 

 

I do agree that I think more shit's going to come out about Aerys, he's likely still an incompetent ruler but probably not as mad as we're lead to believe or was being driven mad by outside forces. I think it's likely that Aery's knew about the white walker invation given that the Ghost on High Heart, a child of the forest, was hanging around the Targ court and informed Aery's that he had to marry his sister. The COTF probably didn't have an exact date on the white walker invasion but they likely knew shit was rumbling again. Kind of like Gandolf suspected Sauron was starting to make moves back in The Hobbit. But wasn't ready for full on war until lord of the rings which was like 40 years later.

[House Cambodia]

12 minutes ago, Brian Rioghbhardan said:

Seriously though, I don't know if the white walker people are going to be some kind of "evil monsters" that hate us and want to wipe out mankind. I just think they race of creatures that require incredibly low temperatures to survive and currently most of the planet is not very hospitable and they'd really like to change that and unfortionately that means wiping out mankind.

In a sense, that's not so different to the invasion of the First Men, and then the Andals after them. It's like the Wheel turning full circle. This is assuming that they are in some sense connected to The Children or, less likely, the inhabitants of Westeros that preceded The Children.

[House Cambodia]

12 minutes ago, Brian Rioghbhardan said:

Seriously though, I don't know if the white walker people are going to be some kind of "evil monsters" that hate us and want to wipe out mankind. I just think they race of creatures that require incredibly low temperatures to survive and currently most of the planet is not very hospitable and they'd really like to change that and unfortionately that means wiping out mankind.

In a sense, that's not so different to the invasion of the First Men, and then the Andals after them. It's like the Wheel turning full circle. This is assuming that they are in some sense connected to The Children or, less likely, the inhabitants of Westeros that preceded The Children.

[House Cambodia]

12 minutes ago, Brian Rioghbhardan said:

Seriously though, I don't know if the white walker people are going to be some kind of "evil monsters" that hate us and want to wipe out mankind. I just think they race of creatures that require incredibly low temperatures to survive and currently most of the planet is not very hospitable and they'd really like to change that and unfortionately that means wiping out mankind.

In a sense, that's not so different to the invasion of the First Men, and then the Andals after them. It's like the Wheel turning full circle. This is assuming that they are in some sense connected to The Children or, less likely, the inhabitants of Westeros that preceded The Children.

[Brian Rioghbhardan]

7 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

In a sense, that's not so different to the invasion of the First Men, and then the Andals after them. It's like the Wheel turning full circle. This is assuming that they are in some sense connected to The Children or, less likely, the inhabitants of Westeros that preceded The Children.

When you say connected to COFT, do you mean like they're working together? Because I'm not sure I see how that would work. I know some people think Bloodraven is working with the White Walkers because of Melisandre's vision. But Melisandre isn't great at interpreting her visions. And it's the children of the forest not the children of the barren frozen wasteland so I don't see how they aren't on our side. Especially when legends state that humans and COTF worked togeather last time to drive this off. I mean you could argue that they want the white walkers to sweep through killing all mankind then return where they came from that way forests can regrow. But then it doesn't explain why the ghost of High Heart was advising the Targ kings on who to marry so they could bring about a promised hero to defeat the white walkers. 

[Brian Rioghbhardan]

7 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

In a sense, that's not so different to the invasion of the First Men, and then the Andals after them. It's like the Wheel turning full circle. This is assuming that they are in some sense connected to The Children or, less likely, the inhabitants of Westeros that preceded The Children.

When you say connected to COFT, do you mean like they're working together? Because I'm not sure I see how that would work. I know some people think Bloodraven is working with the White Walkers because of Melisandre's vision. But Melisandre isn't great at interpreting her visions. And it's the children of the forest not the children of the barren frozen wasteland so I don't see how they aren't on our side. Especially when legends state that humans and COTF worked togeather last time to drive this off. I mean you could argue that they want the white walkers to sweep through killing all mankind then return where they came from that way forests can regrow. But then it doesn't explain why the ghost of High Heart was advising the Targ kings on who to marry so they could bring about a promised hero to defeat the white walkers. 

[House Cambodia]

We only have the 'history' of the humans; the rest is myth and speculation. What we've been told by the tales of men is that the original inhabitants of Westeros were the COTF. They were driven out by the First Men who were pretty damn genocidal until the Andals invaded, causing the FM to make peace with the Children and fight the Andals together. The Children have no cause to be in the side of humans except to unite to drive out a common enemy as happened before.

Were the COTF actually the original inhabitants? I'm throwing out as wild speculation that the Others could be a more ancient race. I'm also throwing out as slightly more plausible that they are somehow two branches of the same race, a bit like eloi and morlocks in HG Wells' Time Machine (hence your forest/frozen wasteland dichotomy).

 

I don't recall the Ghost of High Heart - where's the reference again?

[House Cambodia]

We only have the 'history' of the humans; the rest is myth and speculation. What we've been told by the tales of men is that the original inhabitants of Westeros were the COTF. They were driven out by the First Men who were pretty damn genocidal until the Andals invaded, causing the FM to make peace with the Children and fight the Andals together. The Children have no cause to be in the side of humans except to unite to drive out a common enemy as happened before.

Were the COTF actually the original inhabitants? I'm throwing out as wild speculation that the Others could be a more ancient race. I'm also throwing out as slightly more plausible that they are somehow two branches of the same race, a bit like eloi and morlocks in HG Wells' Time Machine (hence your forest/frozen wasteland dichotomy).

 

I don't recall the Ghost of High Heart - where's the reference again?

[Brian Rioghbhardan]

 

2 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

I don't recall the Ghost of High Heart - where's the reference again?

 

The Ghost of High Heart is pretty interesting figure, I suggest you look into her. Ok so we are told that Duncan, the eldest son of Aegon V, decided to break of the engagment his father had arranged in order to marry a mysterious riverlands commoner named Jenny of Oldstone who some believed was a witch. It's noted that "Jenny of Oldstones was accompanied to court by a dwarfish, albino woman who was reputed to be a woods witch in the riverlands. Lady Jenny herself claimed, in her ignorance, that she was a child of the forest."  We're also told that it was this very same wood witch who told the Targ's that Aery's must marry his sister, despite them both loving other people, because TPTWP would be born to their line. Additionally when Barristan is talking to Dany he briefly touches on the Tragedy of Summerhall, in which the Targ summer palace burnt down on the night Rhaegar was born killing King Aegon V and all the other Targ branches besides Aerys. He mentions that the fire was the result of some sort of magic ritual involving dragon eggs and wild fire and he lays the blame for it on the Wood Witch. In the books while Arya is traveling through the riverlands with the Brothers with out Banners, they decide to visit Highheart. The reason being is that their is an old wood witch that lives at the top of highheart known as the Ghost of High Heart and that she regularly will give the BWB useful visions or prophesies in exchange for money or a song. They note that she always requests that they play a particular song about Jenny of Oldstone. When She meet's Arya she looks into her eyes and then says a bunch of stuff about not having seen such darkness since summerhall or something. Also she's physically described in Arya's POV in the same way that Bran describes the Children of the Forest. So basically we got one of the COTF living at court under Targ Aegon V, providing them with prophesies which they took seriously enough to arrange marriages based on. Makes you wonder what else she told them seeing as she was a COTF.

[House Cambodia]

Oh yes, I remember those stories. She met LSH, didn't she? Thanks for the heads up and putting it all together.

[Daecon Dayne]

On 5/8/2016 at 5:49 AM, House Cambodia said:

I think it will slowly become apparent that King Aerys has been getting an unfair press all these years and was far more rational than we've been led to believe.

There was quite an interesting thread on here postulating that Bran might've been whispering to Aerys via the Weirnet, which eventually turned him batty. It's an entertaining thought - that something supernatural/magical triggered him - but it doesn't really contribute to the story, at least not for me.. 

However, considering his name, all of the corroborative accounts from people who knew him personally as a wack, and then add Duskendale, the ensuing heightened paranoia etc... It would appear his reputation is much deserved.

I doubt there's much to it besides the fact that he was drawn specifically as a volatile man (Targaryen, obsessed with fire, etc.) who had drawn his last breath of reason (after the Darklyn's defiance). 

 

 

As for the rest: 

A lot of 'baddies', for lack of a better term, have since shifted massively in the readers' minds (Jaime, notably); it stands to reason that a few 'goodies' will lean farther toward a morally grey area (Bran, for example). 

[Curled Finger]

@House Cambodia  this is not at all what I expected.  I have been taking a break from the forums recently due in part to sheer boredom.  How refreshing to see just ideas.  Good on you.  As @Daecon Dayne stated above, it's entirely reasonable to expect some good to go grey and some bad to go lighter as the story progresses.   I'm not sold that Bran will go dark, but there is a great deal of story in front of us.  The Others...ah, we know so little and suspect so much of them.  Are they really some mindless collective consciousness acting out in ignorant violence against the inhabitants of the North?  Is there some older legend still that explains their presence?  Will our sweet Bran be our conduit into their motives and intentions?   Maybe, maybe not.  It's clear these things have been around for a very long time. There are so many things they could be.  

What is clearer are the paths of the main characters and overall plot.  We have our handful of heroes that curiously change with each book as well as our villains, who are constantly replaced with worse issue.   You think Cersei and Ramsay are bad?  Wait to get a load of Euron.   As I try to match up all the conflicting characters, creatures, situations and magic objects in story parallels become obvious as do the cycles of history given.   Sansa versus Cersei.  Arya versus The World.  Jon versus the Watch.  Bran versus...you get the idea.  I think when Cersei is finally defeated Sansa will be permitted to grow into the fullness of her situation, for it is Cersei she hides from.  Jon will ultimately have to give the NW the finger in order to do what he is clearly written to do and Arya should have an unexpected run in with herself.   Dany certainly has the potential to become great.  With greatness there is always the promise of good and threat of evil.  There is no reason she couldn't have it all and become completely grey in her glory.  Tyrion is self destructive but may be smart enough to turn that outward in productive ways.    I have hope for him from the TWOW sample chapter.  Once the great threats (Little Finger, Varys, Roose, Euron and The Others) are removed from the story the main characters can become their true selves.   It is the great heroic possibility in each of these characters including Blood Raven, Jamie and Theon, that keeps me coming back again and again.  It is the potential for evil in each of these characters, including Brienne, Sam and Davos, that keeps me spellbound to a very mean tale of a harsh world.   

I expect that there will be resolution of much, but not all the mysteries and conflicts dancing around each other in Westeros. There is little hope for many survivors at the end of this story and I prepare to lose many favorite characters before endgame. Hopefully that endgame will entail the removal of the threat of any more winters lasting generations and the nasty creatures that darkness brings with it.  

[House Cambodia]

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

@House Cambodia  this is not at all what I expected.  I have been taking a break from the forums recently due in part to sheer boredom.  How refreshing to see just ideas.  Good on you.  

Thanks very much for the heads up. As a new poster still feeling his way, it means a lot.