The Purpose of the Ironborn

[Ssangkall]

  Hello everyone.  First topic here, I believe.

  Been thinking a lot about the purpose of the Ironborn.  After reading the books (and admittedly disliking the Ironborn chapters the most) I am trying to figure out the reason why they have not been destroyed.  They're raiders, rapers, pillagers, and it seems that when they get beat, they can just go home to repeat themselves whenever.  

  Plotwise, I can see why Theon exists, but not yet any other Ironborn character.  Maybe the 

Spoiler

Horn guy sailing, but if he just dies it is almost a pointless addition (IMO).

 

If someone who understands the books better, historical cases of pirate-states thriving (vikings?), or writing plots and their purpose/process, PLEASE help me appreciate the point of this part of the story.  

  Thank you.

[Ssangkall]

Help!

[John Doe]

They are a warrior culture. In RL there were a lot of these. 

[Paxter Redwyne]

Had they killed all ironborn there would not be greyjoy rebellion every 20 years, but it would take some time and many men would die fighting them, and no king ever tried to do it, thinking that maybe ironborn this time will learn ( small surprise: they will never learn ).

 

[John Doe]

I think the Northeners should be all killed too. Rebellious scum. 

[Paxter Redwyne]

10 minutes ago, John Doe said:

I think the Northeners should be all killed too. Rebellious scum. 

Meh, they rebelled only once during targaryen history and once during "baratheon" reign. Ironborn have better score, rebelling twice during aegon conqueror, once during aenys rule, once during aegon iii dragonbane, once during aerys i and twice since targaryens were driven out from westeros.

[TheSovereignGrave]

13 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Meh, they rebelled only once during targaryen history and once during "baratheon" reign. Ironborn have better score, rebelling twice during aegon conqueror, once during aenys rule, once during aegon iii dragonbane, once during aerys i and twice since targaryens were driven out from westeros.

When did they rebel against Aegon the Conqueror? And I mean after he actually took the Iron Islands, because you can't rebel against someone who doesn't control you.

[ser plant]

They havent been destroyed, mainly because genocide is generally viewed as a bit immoral and is difficult to carry out.

They are essentially a culture stuck in the past, all kingdoms in the 7 kingdoms had a similar way of life before Aegon landed and united the realms, while the Ironborn were ignored and refused to fully assimilate due to the numerous compromises they were having to make that threatened their strong national identity. Every culture in history has fought to keep their cultural identity, their refusal to assimilate with the mainland really isn't that strange.

The Ironborn are likely headed for a cultural revolution. The conflict of their storyline is shown through the characters, Aeron= staunch traditionalist, Asha=progressive, Euron=regressive & Vic = misguided traditionalist.

The Ironborn and Dornish storyline are essentially separate from the main storyline in the book. While they do intersect i suspect neither will have major impacts on the final result of their respective stories.

[ser plant]

3 minutes ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Victarion is on a quest to bring the dragons to Westeros. By moving the plot forward he is on the noblest goddamn mission in the books and don't you forget it.

Haha true, cant wait to see Vic astride his dragon with a Valyrian steel Axe held in his satanic volcano hand smiting the godless with every bow.

[Paxter Redwyne]

20 minutes ago, TheSovereignGrave said:

When did they rebel against Aegon the Conqueror? And I mean after he actually took the Iron Islands, because you can't rebel against someone who doesn't control you.

I meant rebellion of qhorin volmark and priest lodos. 

[Paxter Redwyne]

20 minutes ago, ser plant said:

They havent been destroyed, mainly because genocide is generally viewed as a bit immoral and is difficult to carry out.

Genocide in westeros isn't seen as bad as in our world. For example Tywin was totally ok with slaughtering all tarbecks and drowning all reynes along with their household. Aerys even awarded tywin for it by naming him as his hand, heh.

[Charerg]

You could say that the Ironborn have been dealt with rather "mercifully", at least in more recent history. Regardless of the Greyjoy's taking part in several rebellions and being fairly disloyal and destructive in general, the same House still rules the Iron Islands, whereas in many other cases the Houses that took part in a rebellion lost their position.

You would expect that at least some attempts would have been made to "tighten the reins" on the Ironborn, like some limits to how large a fleet they're allowed to maintain and some form of "roal governor" to keep an eye on them. Then again, the Targaryens in general seem kind of ineffective, they only ruled a small piece of Westeros in truth, whereas every other region was practically completely autonomous with basically no "royal presence" at all, not even small garrisons to keep order or anything of the sort.

As for their existence, I guess their primary purpose is to add a distinct, Viking-inspired cultural group into the mix. They're also a pretty useful "wild card" (with their entirely naval military) that GRRM has been able to use in order to move the plot in unexpected directions.

[Special Snowflake]

49 minutes ago, Charerg said:

You could say that the Ironborn have been dealt with rather "mercifully", at least in more recent history. Regardless of the Greyjoy's taking part in several rebellions and being fairly disloyal and destructive in general, the same House still rules the Iron Islands, whereas in many other cases the Houses that took part in a rebellion lost their position.

You would expect that at least some attempts would have been made to "tighten the reins" on the Ironborn, like some limits to how large a fleet they're allowed to maintain and some form of "roal governor" to keep an eye on them. Then again, the Targaryens in general seem kind of ineffective, they only ruled a small piece of Westeros in truth, whereas every other region was practically completely autonomous with basically no "royal presence" at all, not even small garrisons to keep order or anything of the sort.

As for their existence, I guess their primary purpose is to add a distinct, Viking-inspired cultural group into the mix. They're also a pretty useful "wild card" (with their entirely naval military) that GRRM has been able to use in order to move the plot in unexpected directions.

I agree with this.

Also I think they had to be introduced as as separate culture, but still native to Westeros who will finally get/help Danny come to Westeros. Victarion and his ships....There is also conflict for Danny, because if she gets to Westeros with Ironborn she won't be very popular. Considering no one in universe really likes them she won't get support she might have had otherwise from other houses. Which leads us to conquering etc.

They do have their little side story, but I think they are ultimately a piece in someone else's story. Vic/Euron for Dany. Obviously Theon for Rob/Starks.

[Ssangkall]

2 hours ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Because the greenlanders is a bunch o' punk-ass-bitches.

Best line ever.  If I ever RP with the group out here in SF golden gate park, I will borrow this.

2 hours ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Or did you mean like, genocide the Iron Islands down to the last fisherman? Because even if a king was that bloodthirsty, such a plan of action would represent unacceptable losses.

Pretty much.  Maybe kill all the men and boys and keep the women.  This was done by the O.G. Starks once, right?

 

[Ssangkall]

1 hour ago, Charerg said:

As for their existence, I guess their primary purpose is to add a distinct, Viking-inspired cultural group into the mix. They're also a pretty useful "wild card" (with their entirely naval military) that GRRM has been able to use in order to move the plot in unexpected directions.

This or hopefully they have some point in the future plot, because there are only 2 books left

2 hours ago, ser plant said:

The Ironborn and Dornish storyline are essentially separate from the main storyline in the book. While they do intersect i suspect neither will have major impacts on the final result of their respective stories.

 

[Special Snowflake]

35 minutes ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

That's an interesting position to take. Robb always seemed like a secondary character to Cat's storyline. Theon has his own POVs. What makes you consider Robb more significant to the story than Theon?

True. In the books we see him trough Cat's POV. But he is on of my more dear characters and I can get sidetracked with a show, because first I watched, then I read the books, so I admit I am bias in this case and in my mind, Theon kind of stayed attached to the Starks and Winterfell. His POV's are some of better written in DwD. I am not denying that he had a very important role to play or that he still has an important unfinished business. I just think he is a part of a bigger whole. As in northern storyline (his betrayal of Rob, Bran and Rickon etc.).

I wanted to say that Ironborn are there to move the plot along. As in they are not the same level players as say Starks, Lannisters, Dany... but they do have their place on the chessboard. Theon is by far the most prominent of those characters and the one we have known the longest.

[TheSovereignGrave]

3 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

I meant rebellion of qhorin volmark and priest lodos. 

I wouldn't consider either of them to have actually rebelled against Aegon the Conqueror, simply because he didn't control the Iron Islands. He slew Harren the Black, but that didn't mean he ruled over the Iron Islands. It would be a couple of years after Harrenhal before he actually dealt with the Iron Islands themselves.

[Scorpion92]

Well, in my opinion, Euron will get killed by Sam in Oldtown, Victarion will die in Dothraki Sea bathed in dragonfire, Iron Isles and Aeron Damphair will get drowned in upcoming Long Night. 

Survivors of Iron Islands will follow Theon as their new "Moses" to a new promised land (Cape Kraken in the North) and become part of King Jon Stark's realm. "What is dead may never die" which applies both to Theon and Jon.

The other ironborn and Iron Fleet that left with Victarion will come back to Westeros as part of Dany's invasion force. When she defeats Stannis near Dragonstone as part of "slaying the lie of a blue eyed king with burning sword who cast no shadow", Asha Greyjoy and Manderly fleet with northern army will join Dragon Queen.

So in the Battle of the Dawn, ironborn and Greyjoys will be divided - Theon and "his" ironborn will be fighting on "ice" side for Jon Stark, Asha and "her" ironborn - for "fire" and Daenerys Targaryen. Theon's ultimate storyline is about proving he is "Stark", but it will be in very tragic fashion I think - he will have to take down his sister, the only Greyjoy who cares about him.

[Paxter Redwyne]

2 hours ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Not really the same as genocide.

But effect of it was that two ancient houses were wiped out along with three hundred men women and children drowned in their castle. It's like little genocide.

[Paxter Redwyne]

22 minutes ago, TheSovereignGrave said:

I wouldn't consider either of them to have actually rebelled against Aegon the Conqueror, simply because he didn't control the Iron Islands. He slew Harren the Black, but that didn't mean he ruled over the Iron Islands. It would be a couple of years after Harrenhal before he actually dealt with the Iron Islands themselves.

You are maybe right, but they declared themselves new kings of iron islands and fought aegon in order to became independent, so i think it can be named as rebellion.

10 minutes ago, Scorpion92 said:

So in the Battle of the Dawn, ironborn and Greyjoys will be divided - Theon and "his" ironborn will be fighting on "ice" side for Jon Stark, Asha and "her" ironborn - for "fire" and Daenerys Targaryen. Theon's ultimate storyline is about proving he is "Stark", but it will be in very tragic fashion I think - he will have to take down his sister, the only Greyjoy who cares about him.

This theory is quite weird but whatever. But why Jon and Dany would fight against themselves? Not to mention that dealing with others is more important at this point.