The Purpose of the Ironborn

[Dorian Martell]

5 hours ago, Ssangkall said:

 After reading the books (and admittedly disliking the Ironborn chapters the most) I am trying to figure out the reason why they have not been destroyed.

They are the ultimate badasses in the books. During the days of the first men they had superior technology (iron) that made them feared by the bronze wielding denizens of Westeros. The Iron islands are mineral rich and agriculture poor so they survive on their ships. The Andals conquered everything south of the neck, but when they got to the Iron islands, the Andals became like them rather than conquering them. Now they are an excellent plot device. I hope that explains everything 

[John Doe]

3 hours ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Not really the same as genocide.

Agreed. 

[Scorpion92]

54 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

This theory is quite weird but whatever. But why Jon and Dany would fight against themselves? Not to mention that dealing with others is more important at this point.

Well, it depends on your perspective whether the final battle will be between Jon and Dany for Iron Throne (Others supporting Jon and Dany having "nuke" dragons) or it will be humans all bundling up together to push back the Others.

I am in "Jon vs Dany" camp.

[Paxter Redwyne]

1 hour ago, Scorpion92 said:

Well, it depends on your perspective whether the final battle will be between Jon and Dany for Iron Throne (Others supporting Jon and Dany having "nuke" dragons) or it will be humans all bundling up together to push back the Others.

I am in "Jon vs Dany" camp.

But please, answer me why would jon want to fight daenerys? 

[TheSovereignGrave]

2 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

You are maybe right, but they declared themselves new kings of iron islands and fought aegon in order to became independent, so i think it can be named as rebellion.

No, they fought Aegon the Conqueror in order to stay independent. Aegon didn't set foot on the islands for a couple years after he was crowned by the High Septon, so one can hardly say that he ruled over the Iron Islands so they were still independent when Aegon invaded.

[Ssangkall]

2 hours ago, Dorian Martell said:

 Now they are an excellent plot device. I hope that explains everything 

How so?  Because they are badasses with historical relevance?  I know theon is a big part of getting things rolling and maybe victarion soon, but is that enough to not just use other characters?  I dunno, totally open to thoughts

[Pastaeyes]

My thoughts are that their religion in some way may play a big part. What with the duality of it mirroring the red temples religion and the iron born effectively being a death cult. But I'm probably wrong. I just feel that there is more meat on the bone of iron born we have not yet seen.

[Scorpion92]

1 hour ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

But please, answer me why would jon want to fight daenerys? 

Well, at that point, they will be the last two claimants for Iron Throne. Dany will never believe that he is Rhaegar's son even if Howland Reed or some other evidence comes up, not after her eventual battle with fAegon. The fact he grew up as Ned Stark's son will not win Jon any points with Dany. She has had enough of secret sons of Rhaegar popping out and trying to usurp her "rightful place" (in her mind,at least). The first one was a fraud, so for her Jon is probably another one.

Meanwhile, Jon will want to fulfill his obligation to defend "the realms of men" (there will be no Night's Watch left): he would have had become Lord of Winterfell, defeat Others with Bran's help, and become King of Winter. Having secured the North, his only destination would be to go south and take his seat as King of Westeros. Dany's "Fire and Blood" campaign is not exactly peaceful motto, so he might view her dragons as a danger and threat to "the realms of men" and "his" kingdom. Plus, if he discovers his heritage, he has better claim to that throne than Dany, so he will need to take her out first.

It will also mirror Torrhen Stark and Aegon the Conqueror: however, this time, Stark king will give a battle to Targaryen conqueror and engage him and the dragons in the Battle of the Dawn. I think the battle will conclude when Jon proves to Westeros his Targaryen heritage by taming or skinchanging Drogon, Dany's biggest and baddest dragon (Viserion and Rhaegal will both fall: one will be killed by Davos, which is foreshadowed in TWOIAF by the tale of Davos the Dragonslayer).

There are many reasons why they would fight, but the main evidence that sold me on that are Dany's House of Undying vision where she rides a dragon in Rhaegar's armor and battles the Usurper's army all clad in icy armor (the Usurper here will be Jon in her view). And we know that infamous Jon vision of him at the top of the Wall in icy armor and burning sword in his hand, where he kills dead people and proclaims himself Lord of Winterfell after he cuts off undead Robb's head.

So yeah, in my opinion, Jon vs Dany is definitely happening.

[Seams]

2 hours ago, Ssangkall said:

How so?  Because they are badasses with historical relevance?  I know theon is a big part of getting things rolling and maybe victarion soon, but is that enough to not just use other characters?  I dunno, totally open to thoughts

Theon is a significant character, and GRRM needed him to be from a separate, outside culture. If you look at some of his key scenes, you may agree with me that Theon represents a sword (adds a layer of meaning to the idea of "Ironborn") and I believe he represents the sword Ice. In the scene where he emerges from the Winterfell crypt (a symbolic forge for Stark people-as-weapons) he finds that Bran connects with him. I think Bran is going to start wielding Theon as a weapon when the story resumes, kicking some Bolton and Frey a**.

As a sword, the motto, "We do not sow" takes on an interesting meaning when compared with Arya's sword, Needle. Arya "sews" when she uses her sword; Theon does not.

The ritual of submerging an Iron Islander in water for the purpose of coming back to life also reflects the process of annealing steel or any metal that has been worked with heat to make it stronger.

There are lots of little lines and details that point toward Theon as sword - he enters the story when he hands the sword Ice to Ned for the beheading of the Night's Watch deserter, for instance. The idea that he represents an inanimate object (what's dead can never die) also helps to explain his apparent lack of moral absolutes: Theon can be picked up and used in a violent way by whoever is nearby. When he was Neds ward/sword, he behaved himself and lived a moral life. When Ned died and Theon left Robb and was on his own or acted on his father's orders or he fell into Ramsay's hands, he turned into a dirtbag. He's a weapon, not a knight. I hope he will return to a better path as Bran uses him as a remote-controlled sword. In fact, it seems like he may have been destined for Bran's hands ever since he shot an arrow into the wildling who was going to kill Bran. Theon knows now that he is not he Prince of Winterfell. He knows who is, though, and it's not Ramsay.

I think Theon's quest may be to reunite the two swords that were made out of Ice - Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail. It will be interesting to see if that becomes literally true, or if those swords are also represented by humans: Sansa and Arya?

Other aspects of Ironborn culture may be significant for their contrast to mainstream Westeros culture: they elect their king, they don't particularly value horses, they don't worship the 7 gods. By contrasting their priorities with Westeros beliefs and practices, GRRM gives us a chance to question and try to analyze why these things are important to one group but not to another - not merely on the level of plot, but on the level of literature. For instance, my most recent take on the meaning of horses is that they represent power. The Ironborn like to raid coastal settlements for riches, but they do not want to conquer territory. Theon, who loved his horse, made the mistake of "conquering" Winterfell. He found that the rest of his group didn't really support his move. I'm still pondering the horses = power notion, but the pieces seem to fit, so far.

The "paying the iron price" philosophy obviously is consistent with the notion that Theon and other Ironborn represent swords. In addition to the sow / sew pun, there is a motif built on the pun of steal and steel. The Ironborn have stolen some important swords, and I think those could resurface and become important in the resolution of the plot.

There seem to be some key characters who come from islands or who have gone to islands - Brienne of Tarth, Rickon and Osha going to Skagos, whatever is going on with obsydian from Dragonstone. It's possible that the people on or from islands have special insights: a pun on "eye" and "I" - land. I'm not sure, but I expect there will be an infusion of island characters who help to resolve the various plots.

Victarion shows a similar lack of moral compass that Theon has shown - maybe even worse, since he didn't have the long period of Stark upbringing that may have helped to make Theon more honorable. I don't know if Victarion represents a sword, however; he may represent the horn he has been entrusted to carry. His personal weapon is an axe, which would still fit the ironborn symbolism. His blackened and burned-appearing hand after Moqorro treats his infected wound could represent another "reforging" of a weapon that needed to be sharpened or mended. Perhaps this symbolizes Moqorro claiming Victarion for his own use, similar to the way that Ramsay used Theon / Reek as a weapon.

I don't know if this entirely answers your questions. I do see some literary threads that tie into symbols on the Iron Islands. Their purpose and resolution aren't entirely clear at this point.

[Dorian Martell]

On 5/8/2016 at 3:19 PM, Ssangkall said:

How so?  Because they are badasses with historical relevance?  I know theon is a big part of getting things rolling and maybe victarion soon, but is that enough to not just use other characters?  I dunno, totally open to thoughts

You are not open to any thoughts. The Ironborn provides in book historical context for events pre and post bob's rebellion and they are some direct connections to the primary family featured in the novels. 
You have an opinion on several characters in a fantasy novel series. Good for you, but to assume the importance of a whole group of characters is based entirely on your like or dislike of them is foolish. If you don't like the books, stop reading. Or better yet, write you own epic 7 part fantasy story. Show george how it's done 

[Sullen]

They flesh out the universe immensely and move the plot ahead constantly, I don't see why anyone would doubt their purpose to the plot.

[Paxter Redwyne]

On 8.05.2016 at 1:15 AM, Scorpion92 said:

Well, at that point, they will be the last two claimants for Iron Throne. Dany will never believe that he is Rhaegar's son even if Howland Reed or some other evidence comes up, not after her eventual battle with fAegon. The fact he grew up as Ned Stark's son will not win Jon any points with Dany. She has had enough of secret sons of Rhaegar popping out and trying to usurp her "rightful place" (in her mind,at least). The first one was a fraud, so for her Jon is probably another one.

Meanwhile, Jon will want to fulfill his obligation to defend "the realms of men" (there will be no Night's Watch left): he would have had become Lord of Winterfell, defeat Others with Bran's help, and become King of Winter. Having secured the North, his only destination would be to go south and take his seat as King of Westeros. Dany's "Fire and Blood" campaign is not exactly peaceful motto, so he might view her dragons as a danger and threat to "the realms of men" and "his" kingdom. Plus, if he discovers his heritage, he has better claim to that throne than Dany, so he will need to take her out first.

It will also mirror Torrhen Stark and Aegon the Conqueror: however, this time, Stark king will give a battle to Targaryen conqueror and engage him and the dragons in the Battle of the Dawn. I think the battle will conclude when Jon proves to Westeros his Targaryen heritage by taming or skinchanging Drogon, Dany's biggest and baddest dragon (Viserion and Rhaegal will both fall: one will be killed by Davos, which is foreshadowed in TWOIAF by the tale of Davos the Dragonslayer).

There are many reasons why they would fight, but the main evidence that sold me on that are Dany's House of Undying vision where she rides a dragon in Rhaegar's armor and battles the Usurper's army all clad in icy armor (the Usurper here will be Jon in her view). And we know that infamous Jon vision of him at the top of the Wall in icy armor and burning sword in his hand, where he kills dead people and proclaims himself Lord of Winterfell after he cuts off undead Robb's head.

So yeah, in my opinion, Jon vs Dany is definitely happening.

Jon is person who least would want to become king. If Daenerys would attack westeros he would just bent the knee to her.

[Scorpion92]

1 hour ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Jon is person who least would want to become king. If Daenerys would attack westeros he would just bent the knee to her.

If he comes back from death more determined to "protect the realms of men", he will realize being Lord Commander of Night's Watch is not enough, he would need more power.

He will be much effective "sword in the darkness" and "shield that guards the realms of men" as a king, especially since he has all the right to the throne. 

And besides, what is the point of Jon's parentage if not hint to us readers what he really will become? I mean, I know Martin's work is different from other fantasies, but it is still a fantasy. And an ideal king in fantasies IS someone who protects his kingdom and people in it because it is his duty.

[Daecon Dayne]

On 5/8/2016 at 4:33 PM, Let's Get Kraken said:

Victarion is [...] on the noblest goddamn mission in the books and don't you forget it.

VICTARION.

He is the purpose of the Iron Islands.

[Paxter Redwyne]

1 hour ago, Scorpion92 said:

If he comes back from death more determined to "protect the realms of men", he will realize being Lord Commander of Night's Watch is not enough, he would need more power.

He will be much effective "sword in the darkness" and "shield that guards the realms of men" as a king, especially since he has all the right to the throne. 

And besides, what is the point of Jon's parentage if not hint to us readers what he really will become? I mean, I know Martin's work is different from other fantasies, but it is still a fantasy. And an ideal king in fantasies IS someone who protects his kingdom and people in it because it is his duty.

GRRM works strongly criticizes feudal society. It would be weird for him to turn around in last book by creating perfect king without flaws. Also no matter what, Jon Snow is not ambitious man, he isn't power hungry to start another war what will annihalate another thouands of men just to become king. He is wise enough to step down if it allows to save human lives. It is ridiculous to think that he will ever do that. Also if Jon Snow will accept truth about his parentage, he have no right to rule north.

[Scorpion92]

2 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

GRRM works strongly criticizes feudal society. It would be weird for him to turn around in last book by creating perfect king without flaws. Also no matter what, Jon Snow is not ambitious man, he isn't power hungry to start another war what will annihalate another thouands of men just to become king. He is wise enough to step down if it allows to save human lives. It is ridiculous to think that he will ever do that. Also if Jon Snow will accept truth about his parentage, he have no right to rule north.

Exactly, GRRM strongly criticizes feudal society, which is what Jon will destroy in the North, and Dany in the South. Jon will win the North and Winterfell by leading wildling army to get control of Rickon who will be returned by Ser Davos to Lord Manderly and northern nobility. They will refuse to give control of little Lord Stark to his bastard brother who for all they know broke his vows of Night's Watch (they will not know or will not believe that he died and got resurrected) and is leading an army of savages and barbarians to usurp his brother's rightful place.

As for Jon is not an ambitious man, I am saying this again: he will try to take power not because HE wants it, but because that is what he needs to do in order to protect the realms of men: he knows White Walkers are coming, so the situation will require him to become Lord of Winterfell or at least Rickon's Lord Regent in order to COMMAND northerners to go north and man the nineteen castles at the Wall. Only Lord Stark of Winterfell can make northerners do that.

Once Jon and wildlings take control of Winterfell, the entire political structure and feudal system will crumble - they are Free Folk and follow the man not because of his heritage and titles, but his merit and abilities. There is a reason why there are so many female members are at the head of northern nobile families - Lady Glover controls Deepwood Motte with her husband and brother-in-law away; Lady Dustin might rule not only Barrowton, but Rills as well if her father and brothers perish in the upcoming battles; Lady Cerwyn and Lady Tallhart are at the head of their respective houses; wildling spearwife Rowan is rumored to be long lost daughter of Mors "Crowfood" Umber; bastard Larence Snow is son of late Lord Hornwood so there is a connection to Jon, etc.

I even argue in a lot of other threads that Lord Manderly's upcoming conflict with Jon and wildlings will cost him his seat and titles, as I believe Jon will award White Harbor to Ser Davos Seaworth for his services and appoint him as his Admiral and order him to rebuild northern fleet knowing that Iron Throne will not be too happy with Starks taking back Winterfell.

You see my point? It is a perfect situation to completely destroy northern feudal society and establish something completely new. If Jon arranges marriages between his wildling allies and these northern ladies like he did with Alys Karstark and Sigorn Thenn, then I see "new" northerners ELECTING Jon as Lord of Winterfell even though he is down the line of succession. For one simple reason - he will EARN it for his actions and vision. Besides, I expect Rickon to die soon in the upcoming book, and rest of Stark siblings are presumed dead or nowhere to be found. If Robb's will comes out as well, then it will give Jon that much power.

Now, in my humble opinion, once Jon becomes Lord of Winterfell and solidifies his rule by integrating his wildling allies and Ser Davos into the North, he will have a united kingdom behind him when the Wall falls and White Walkers invade. This is where he will become King of Winter with big help from Bran by defeating White Walkers and integrating them into his kingdom as well.

I see Jon and Dany as these two strong forces that break centuries long traditions and prejudices and shape a completely new world in the environment of chaos and destruction (Long Night), because usually if you want to build a new building you need to erase the old one. Big part of Jon's storyline is about making two enemy factions forget their hatred and coexist with one another. White Walkers are the next step in his storyline, and then southerners, Essosi refugees and dragons after he battles Dany.

At least that is how I see it, so I respect if you disagree with me.

[Melisandre's White Pubes]

At one time, England was divided into seven kingdoms, one of which was a viking kingdom.  Voila! 

[Paxter Redwyne]

17 hours ago, Scorpion92 said:

Exactly, GRRM strongly criticizes feudal society, which is what Jon will destroy in the North, and Dany in the South. Jon will win the North and Winterfell by leading wildling army to get control of Rickon who will be returned by Ser Davos to Lord Manderly and northern nobility. They will refuse to give control of little Lord Stark to his bastard brother who for all they know broke his vows of Night's Watch (they will not know or will not believe that he died and got resurrected) and is leading an army of savages and barbarians to usurp his brother's rightful place.

As for Jon is not an ambitious man, I am saying this again: he will try to take power not because HE wants it, but because that is what he needs to do in order to protect the realms of men: he knows White Walkers are coming, so the situation will require him to become Lord of Winterfell or at least Rickon's Lord Regent in order to COMMAND northerners to go north and man the nineteen castles at the Wall. Only Lord Stark of Winterfell can make northerners do that.

Once Jon and wildlings take control of Winterfell, the entire political structure and feudal system will crumble - they are Free Folk and follow the man not because of his heritage and titles, but his merit and abilities. There is a reason why there are so many female members are at the head of northern nobile families - Lady Glover controls Deepwood Motte with her husband and brother-in-law away; Lady Dustin might rule not only Barrowton, but Rills as well if her father and brothers perish in the upcoming battles; Lady Cerwyn and Lady Tallhart are at the head of their respective houses; wildling spearwife Rowan is rumored to be long lost daughter of Mors "Crowfood" Umber; bastard Larence Snow is son of late Lord Hornwood so there is a connection to Jon, etc.

I even argue in a lot of other threads that Lord Manderly's upcoming conflict with Jon and wildlings will cost him his seat and titles, as I believe Jon will award White Harbor to Ser Davos Seaworth for his services and appoint him as his Admiral and order him to rebuild northern fleet knowing that Iron Throne will not be too happy with Starks taking back Winterfell.

You see my point? It is a perfect situation to completely destroy northern feudal society and establish something completely new. If Jon arranges marriages between his wildling allies and these northern ladies like he did with Alys Karstark and Sigorn Thenn, then I see "new" northerners ELECTING Jon as Lord of Winterfell even though he is down the line of succession. For one simple reason - he will EARN it for his actions and vision. Besides, I expect Rickon to die soon in the upcoming book, and rest of Stark siblings are presumed dead or nowhere to be found. If Robb's will comes out as well, then it will give Jon that much power.

Now, in my humble opinion, once Jon becomes Lord of Winterfell and solidifies his rule by integrating his wildling allies and Ser Davos into the North, he will have a united kingdom behind him when the Wall falls and White Walkers invade. This is where he will become King of Winter with big help from Bran by defeating White Walkers and integrating them into his kingdom as well.

I see Jon and Dany as these two strong forces that break centuries long traditions and prejudices and shape a completely new world in the environment of chaos and destruction (Long Night), because usually if you want to build a new building you need to erase the old one. Big part of Jon's storyline is about making two enemy factions forget their hatred and coexist with one another. White Walkers are the next step in his storyline, and then southerners, Essosi refugees and dragons after he battles Dany.

At least that is how I see it, so I respect if you disagree with me.

I think too much of it is just assumption.

Jon can't both rule and destroy feudal society. It is impossible. And if Jon is going to destroy it, like dany, why he would ever think she is bad while is doing same thing?

Too many assumptions about dying northern lords and willdlings marrying ladies. Also Lady Dustin is too old to have children i think. And Rowan can't be daughter of Mors Umber as Rowan is pure wildlingand have nothing from northern lady.

I honestly can't understand this logic. It looks too much like fanfic to me. Most of it is just guessing, finding matching words to theories and wish fullfilments. 

I guess we both won't change our opinions so let's better end this discussion. We have already talked off-thread for some time.

 

 

[delspark]

On 5/8/2016 at 0:39 AM, Scorpion92 said:

Well, in my opinion, Euron will get killed by Sam in Oldtown.

Theon's ultimate storyline is about proving he is "Stark", but it will be in very tragic fashion I think 

Euron is said to have traversed many places and seas. He will provide Sam with information about controlling the dragons after which he will be killed. Sam being loyal to Jon, will pass on the info to him, to help him win against Dany and her dragons.

 

Theon will try to prove he is stark and help secure Rickon for Jon.

[delspark]

On 5/8/2016 at 4:45 AM, Scorpion92 said:

Snip

I second that but I don't believe Aegon is fraud. Quentyn arc was set for Drone to align with Aegon than with Dany. Martells are not that dumb to support a fraudulent.