[Spoilers] Criticize Without Repercussion

[Neds Secret]

3 hours ago, The_half_fan said:

You cant use top line viewership figures to justify that GoT is better than 90% of what's on air. We don't know what the viewership churn is. We don't know how much is spent on advertising (paying bloggers to write fake stories, wining-dining to keep magazine critics sweet, writing fake reviews on fan sites in the name of 'community management' ). We don't know how much GoT is riding on the back of the buzz generated from season 1-3.

GoT now is like a movie franchise gone bad eg Matrix 2 & 3, Hunger games 3 & 4, Hobbit 1 & 2, all later Superman movies. The new viewers joining late don't know how good the show was and are going along with the hype. Majority of old viewers could have dropped off for all we know. There are ways to measure these things eg retention, Net Promoter Score.

Make your point but don't use the wrong metrics please!

I don't watch much TV except for GoT.  All I can say is the show from S1-3 was great. There was a drop in S4 but it was still good (Oberyn, Tyrion trial, Joffrey wedding). S5 & 6 are incredibly bad. How it compares to the rest of the TV, I simply cant say. I can say for sure is that GoT can do 10x better by getting the basics right.

They need to write a coherent story that spans seasons. They need to focus on the scripts. The barebones nitty gritty basics. That is what made them great. 

Excellent post, really good to see somebody making sensible claims in relation to viewer numbers and ratings, I really enjoyed it and it was good for thought! 

[Crixus]

1 hour ago, Nami said:

I recommend Spartacus; getting over the gratutious sex in the beginning, this has an amazing writing. Just fantastic from beginning to end. Consistent and touching. The ending will leave you devastated.
It ended in 2013, but this show is so amazing and underrated because of GOT it quite sad how many are missing on it.

Word. See my avatar! 

[Conchobar]

37 minutes ago, Sept Sev said:

At best there would be speculation given that the only survivors from the ToJ were Ned himself, the absent Howland and the too young to remember Jon. Ned would have stopped any rumours that led to further thought on the events around Jon's birth too, as shown in the books by his quashing of the Ashara rumour even though it helped him and Jojen and Meera's surprise that Bran did not know anything about the Tourney at Harrenhall.

He certainly seriously wounds him, enough to get a lot of blood on his sword.

Not on both his swords like is shown.

[Ingelheim]

46 minutes ago, The Knight in Motley said:

Anyone else expecting Hightower to show up wielding a 2-h Valerian (sp.) steel sword named Ice in the next ToJ scene?  Cause I am.

Eddie Eyre confirmed he was playing Gerold Hightower and Whent, both at the same time. So, nope haha

[kissdbyfire]

LOL GoT Gerold Whent it is. Or is it Oswell Hightower? What a joke. Why not say, there were only two, Dayne and X? 

[Ingelheim]

4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

LOL GoT Gerold Whent it is. Or is it Oswell Hightower? What a joke. Why not say, there were only two, Dayne and X? 

@EddieEyre:

That's what he said

[Conchobar]

No one else is annoyed by the inexplicable presence of blood on Dayne's sword before he has killed anyone? Maybe it is just me but I find it very irritating in an otherwise near flawless scene for me.

[Ingelheim]

4 minutes ago, Conchobar said:

No one else is annoyed by the inexplicable presence of blood on Dayne's sword before he has killed anyone? Maybe it is just me but I find it very irritating in an otherwise near flawless scene for me.

I have to admit you were right, sorry for the sarcasm before.

It bothers me but these kinds of continuity errors are common on TV, specially on battles and fights

[Conchobar]

Just now, Ingelheim said:

I have to admit you were right, sorry for the sarcasm before.

It bothers me but these kinds of continuity errors are common on TV, specially on battles and fights

It should NOT happen, on a tv show of this calibre. The scene is now compromised in its immersive experience for me.

[Philokles]

34 minutes ago, Conchobar said:

Not on both his swords like is shown.

He gets blood on his right sword at this point, then a little bit later gets blood on his left. There are a lot of problems with this scene, but this isn't one.

[Conchobar]

7 minutes ago, Sept Sev said:

He gets blood on his right sword at this point, then a little bit later gets blood on his left. There are a lot of problems with this scene, but this isn't one.

It is a problem because there is blood on both his swords when he has clearly stabbed no one at this point. A slash(injury through light armour) on Reed would not cause blood to stay on a sword like that, not even it he had hit an artery, with the speed the sword is going at when it cuts Howland, it would not have gathered any blood realistically speaking. Both his swords look like they have been dipped in a bucket of blood.

Quote

" a little bit later gets blood on his left "

How? From what?

[Philokles]

9 minutes ago, Conchobar said:

It is a problem because there is blood on both his swords when he has clearly stabbed no one at this point. A slash(injury through light armour) on Reed would not cause blood to stay on a sword like that, not even it he had hit an artery, with the speed the sword is going at when it cuts Howland, it would not have gathered any blood realistically speaking. Both his swords look like they have been dipped in a bucket of blood.

How? From what?

The blood on the left comes from the second man he slashes (possibly Ned, or maybe the other one without a helmet), just before the other Kingsguard is killed. You are right that in reality they would never bleed that much onto the sword, and once the choreography demands that they resume fighting recover immediately with no signs of their previous wounds, but there are no continuity errors, it is just a little unbelievable. 

[Conchobar]

4 minutes ago, Sept Sev said:

The blood on the left comes from the second man he slashes (possibly Ned, or maybe the other one without a helmet), just before the other Kingsguard is killed. You are right that in reality they would never bleed that much onto the sword, and once the choreography demands that they resume fighting recover immediately with no signs of their previous wounds, but there are no continuity errors, it is just a little unbelievable. 

Ned was not slashed or injured, otherwise we would definitely have been made aware of it. There was no blood on Dayne's sword directly after he slashed Reed at the beginning.

[House Cambodia]

47 minutes ago, Ingelheim said:

@EddieEyre:

That's what he said

That's nuts. Still, one sword each, eh? Mystery solved  

[Arya Rules!]

On ‎5‎/‎9‎/‎2016 at 9:23 PM, Corvinus said:

I'll start by saying: Two there were, but these were no ordinary two, because one had 2 fucking swords, so it counts for three!!! 

I know that I'm watching an essentially different story, for which I feel good about, but still when they decide to make different creative decisions on simple, yet iconic scenes, it just boggles my mind as to why. 

Also, Howland Reed must rival the Mountain is strength to be able to push a knife, while wounded, through both back plate and chest plate.

And on top of that, troll us with the tower. The whole tower of joy scene felt a bit out of place in this. Is Bran just watching his dad's life? Is that his training?

Other crap that I hated in this episode:

• Jon's return was disappointing with him claiming he doesn't remember anything, and terrible at the end when he just said fuck it.
• Tyrion and Meereen - I almost cried watching that ridiculous filler of a scene, knowing something so much better could have been placed in its stead
• Tommen and the High Septon - I'm not sure what was the purpose of that conversation, though their guards were ready to play Red Rover.

But in the end I gave the episode 6/10 because of Lord Umber, Sam puking on the ship, Alliser's final speech, and mainly Arya's training. 

Reed put the blade between helmet and breastplate and this was plain to see.

Bran is learning "everything".

Jon's return was exactly like Beric's .

[Rockroi]

So, got a few things to talk about:

What I liked:

The Kingsguard Slayer: Look, the Tower of Joy.... that scene had sooooooooo many problems it defies belief; I mean, there are only TWO KG members there when we know that there were three, and can you believe that Dayne was wielding TWO swords?  What happened to the importance of Dawn?  And did that look like Dorne to you?  I mean ... I mean ... 

Oh, who the fuck am I kidding?!  That scene was amazing.  Absolutely jaw-dropping in every way; Dayne was exceptional; you felt the WEIGHT of that fight.  You felt its importance and the sacrifices all these men were involved in.  I could see what Dayne and (Whent or Hightower) were fighting for.  And the actual fighting itself (while still flirting with unrealistic elements) was grounded in a real world.  And even how it ended was a shout out to how Ned is seen and why Reed stabbing Dayne in the back is against the NEd-is-Honor Narrative.  

And that is- and has always been - a call back to Ned's Doppleganger, Jaime.  Jaime stabbed a King in the back; Ned was in a fight what he one when a Kings Guardsman was stabbed in the back.  In BOTH cases, Ned benefited from the dishonorable action.  And yet it is Jaime who is considered to be the horrible, Oathbreaker; Ned honorable and noble.  

The ToJ scene works on many levels- action, suspense, a nod to L+R=J and so many other things.  Buta t its core, the ToJ scene is a reminder that all of these people got here by doing terrible things and great things.  And some have been elevated because of it, and some stained by it; and its not always entirely accurate.  

Witness to the Execution:  I thought Jon's execution of the Night's Watch leaders and Ollie was great; I liked how every single one of those men stayed true to who they were: one of the was still in shock; another still begged to be remembered by his family for doing great things; Ollie was consumed by utter hatred for Snow (a COMPLETELY REASONABLE FEELING UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES).  And Allister Thorne died doing what he thought was 100% right (again, completely logical).  I was convinced that the way the show handled that issue was perfectly clear, consistent and engaging.  

 

What I am on the Fence About:

Jon Snow's Resume:  So, I understand and appreciate 100% that Jon Snow leaving the Watch is consistent withe word of the oath; Jon Snow died so he is no longer bound by the oath.  Right?  Well, I guess; certainly he is defying the "spirit" of the oath.  Also, if Jon's oath ended after he "died" then why is he carrying out an execution?  Is he now an employee at will?  Can he just leave whenever he wants?  

But that's not really an issue.  I like that Jon's story is expanding and no longer stagnant like other, similarly situated characters (*cough*Dany*cough*).  I like that we no longer have to pay attention to the shit-hole that is the Wall (again, its stagnant).  And I like that the experience seems to have changed him.  That is all solid.

But why is he leaving?  I mean, doesn't the wall still need him?  Isn't this a classic "now more than ever" reality?  And so if he's NOT committed to the wall OR if he is now more committed to doing other things ... does that say anything positive about him?  Did Jon only serve the Wall because he HAD to?  And that as soon as the contract had an "out" he took it?  I just don't know if this is a great moment for the show EVEN IF it was, in effect, a "given."  

Hey Davos.... that Witch ... We Cool, Right?  I don't understand how these characters got tied into Jon and WERE NOT tied into getting murdered by the Wildings.  She's a witch that follows a God utterly foreign to them.  How have they not flambe'd her?  And why is Davos so tied in with Jon Snow?  Why is he acting like this?  What?  Does he just "like the cut of his jib?"   Now, I'm not saying this is a bad thing or even not welcome- it is welcome to see characters interface instead of with a needless sea of extras - but the connection needs to feel real and not forced. Davos + Jon feels forced.... 

What I Did Not Like

Where Are the Dragons:  I'm not saying that we need to see the dragons, at all, really.  I'm just saying that Dany's story-line is SUCH a waste of time.  THis woman has a whole city; a gigantic army, at least two hunters out looking for her and, hey remember, the greatest Magical Advantage in the history of stories- three flying dragons.  JESUS CHRIST!!!  Why have they not found her yet?  

Oh, its because teh story need sofr her to do X or Y etc and that's just shitty right there; its creating a story-line where none shoudl exist.  Dany's dragons should be looking for her and if they found her they would be like a B-52 bomber v. the Mongol Hordes- shoot as many arrows as you like, the napalm is going to hit you first!  

This is such a HUGE waste of time; its all useless filler; it has no discernible weight or importance to the story; its needless activity for these people to do.  

There is so much in this show that still works, but the bad stuff constantly weighs it down and Dany's meandering and listless story arc is a huge contributor.  

Compare it to Jon's story.  Okay, I get it, Jon Snow walked out on the only job he ever had.  I get that.  But at least his story is advancing past the role hewas locked into in Season 1.  Dany is still stuck in Essos, not contributing to the main story and the writers (and even Martin) are constaltly finding ways to delay her involvement and its grating and woefully uninteresting.  Dany's Dragons should have found her by now and should be raining fire down on her captors.  There is no reason- realistically or even drummed-up by the fantasy world- that this has not happened yet.  It is silly and uninteresting.  

 

 

 

 

But, no joke, that ToJ scene rocked.

 

 

[Tijgy]

19 hours ago, House Toad said:

Arya's death spoiled by the gift, her contract is easily guessed when Cersei is her prayer

Rickon's death spoiled

Where are the what Ironborn?

Bran has no clue about ShaggyDog?

Birds turn sparrow but if we feed them candy dependably we can take over Westeros? Triple agents is asking a fair bit from the little birds, but their introduction was they can be trusted?

Tower of Joy, ughh

I can give this a pass ... Bran can sort of denies or ignores such things like for example never mentioning to the Reeds the fact Robb is dead and that at this time he is actually the successor of his brother and maybe they should stay in the North ...

No, thought Bran, it is the Nightfort, and this is the end of the world. In the mountains, all he could think of was reaching the Wall and finding the three-eyed crow, but now that they were here he was filled with fears. The dream he'd had . . . the dream Summer had had . . . No, I mustn't think about that dream. He had not even told the Reeds, though Meera at least seemed to sense that something was wrong. If he never talked of it maybe he could forget he ever dreamed it, and then it wouldn't have happened and Robb and Grey Wind would still be . . .

And later in DwD:

Old Nan had told him the same story once, Bran remembered, but when he asked Robb if it was true, his brother laughed and asked him if he believed in grumkins too. He wished Robb were with them now. I'd tell him I could fly, but he wouldn't believe, so I'd have to show him. I bet that he could learn to fly too, him and Arya and Sansa, even baby Rickon and Jon Snow. We could all be ravens and live in Maester Luwin's rookery.

So who knows he might have had a dream? Denial...

[House Toad]

23 minutes ago, Tijgy said:

I can give this a pass ... Bran can sort of denies or ignores such things like for example never mentioning to the Reeds the fact Robb is dead and that at this time he is actually the successor of his brother and maybe they should stay in the North ...

No, thought Bran, it is the Nightfort, and this is the end of the world. In the mountains, all he could think of was reaching the Wall and finding the three-eyed crow, but now that they were here he was filled with fears. The dream he'd had . . . the dream Summer had had . . . No, I mustn't think about that dream. He had not even told the Reeds, though Meera at least seemed to sense that something was wrong. If he never talked of it maybe he could forget he ever dreamed it, and then it wouldn't have happened and Robb and Grey Wind would still be . . .

And later in DwD:

Old Nan had told him the same story once, Bran remembered, but when he asked Robb if it was true, his brother laughed and asked him if he believed in grumkins too. He wished Robb were with them now. I'd tell him I could fly, but he wouldn't believe, so I'd have to show him. I bet that he could learn to fly too, him and Arya and Sansa, even baby Rickon and Jon Snow. We could all be ravens and live in Maester Luwin's rookery.

So who knows he might have had a dream? Denial...

What I was getting at was, we know there is a warg link because we have seen his dreams of warging into ravens, into Hodor, into Summer. We know the wolves know when there kin is dead. The wolves howled as the ravens carrying news of Ned's death arrive in the rockery and the measter in Winterfell gives thought to his concern, they also howl as Lady's bones arrive in the books. We know Bran can see the future, because of his Ironborn dream prior to the invasion of Winterfell. We know he can see the past from this season.

That Denial wasn't quite show except by Meera about her babysitting duties. It was lost in his other partial vision, the Tower of Joy. No he wouldn't have been able to do anything, except retreat into further dreams, or possibly spur him back on his journey home to Jon, as stated to Meera stick around for the ride its going to get going after his training?

 

[Tijgy]

1 minute ago, House Toad said:

What I was getting at was, we know there is a warg link because we have seen his dreams of warging into ravens, into Hodor, into Summer. We know the wolves know when there kin is dead. The wolves howled as the ravens carrying news of Ned's death arrive in the rockery and the measter in Winterfell gives thought to his concern, they also howl as Lady's bones arrive in the books. We know Bran can see the future, because of his Ironborn dream prior to the invasion of Winterfell. We know he can see the past from this season.

 

But this doesnt exist in the show, right?

[House Toad]

10 minutes ago, Tijgy said:

But this doesnt exist in the show, right?

Yes it does on the SHOW. Jojen commenting specifically he was the Three Eyed raven. Bran you are the Raven. He had to calm Hodor at Queenscrown, when they bumped into the Wildling raiding party with Jon prior to the wall. He has warged into Summer so many times in the show, specifically where he wasn't eating because he was warging and dreaming, and he helped them catch food on their travels. The future has been establish by the Ironborn dream of the invasion of Winterfell. The past has been established. The wolves sharing a link with kin has been established by Ned's death. In the books Bran has also warged into Shaggydog in Winterfell attempting calm with little effect, because the wolf was as restless as Rickon, and it had attacked somebody then they were locked up in the Godswood.