[Spoilers]Has Jaime become comedic relief?

[Chickren]

23 hours ago, Sigella said:

Book-Jaime doesn't learn of Cersei's overtures until he visits newlywed Lancel and gatehouse-Ami on his way to RL, so it can still happen regarding the timeline of that and the timeline of RL.

He learns about Lancel, Kettleblack, Moonboy, etc from Tyrion in ASoS.

It isn't confirmed until he goes to Darry. But he knows, and is stewing on it, way before that point.

Topic: It's a shame the show has made Jaime such a laughing stock up to this point. I hope it doesn't lessen the impact of the humor of the verbal evisceration he has coming in the next episode (based on what I see in the trailers).

[Le Cygne]

3 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

may I be alone here but I always thought that that line was a foreshadowing line of him in love with Brienne; not Cersei

Same here.

[LadySoftheart]

2 hours ago, Chickren said:

He learns about Lancel, Kettleblack, Moonboy, etc from Tyrion in ASoS.

It isn't confirmed until he goes to Darry. But he knows, and is stewing on it, way before that point.

Topic: It's a shame the show has made Jaime such a laughing stock up to this point. I hope it doesn't lessen the impact of the humor of the verbal evisceration he has coming in the next episode (based on what I see in the trailers).

Oh, I fully dread that scene with the Blackfish - given the up-is-down, black-is-white Bizarro World Jaime we've gotten ever since he shoved the White Book aside and screwed Cersei on that table I have every faith that this scene will be the exact opposite of what it is in the books. And it will assuredly not use any book dialogue.

40 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Same here.

That's what I thought in season 3 - that it was meant to be about Brienne. But they keep repeating it - last time it was Fauxllaria being "understanding" about the Twincest - so at this point it just sets my teeth on edge. Plus, you may not get to choose whether you fall in love but how you act on that is definitely a choice. Maybe Jaime couldn't help falling for his sister but he *chose* to keep a sexual relationship with her for years and to do the terrible things he did to preserve that relationship. The books show him coming to that understanding about himself, but the show has done nothing of the sort (it's even added in some extra murder of Alton for Jaime to do because he needed to get back to Cersei or whatever.) 

For me, the repetition of "you don't get to choose who you love" is just a reminder of how badly the show has messed up Jaime's plot.

[Meera of Tarth]

13 minutes ago, LadySoftheart said:

Oh, I fully dread that scene with the Blackfish - given the up-is-down, black-is-white Bizarro World Jaime we've gotten ever since he shoved the White Book aside and screwed Cersei on that table I have every faith that this scene will be the exact opposite of what it is in the books. And it will assuredly not use any book dialogue.

That's what I thought in season 3 - that it was meant to be about Brienne. But they keep repeating it - last time it was Fauxllaria being "understanding" about the Twincest - so at this point it just sets my teeth on edge. Plus, you may not get to choose whether you fall in love but how you act on that is definitely a choice. Maybe Jaime couldn't help falling for his sister but he *chose* to keep a sexual relationship with her for years and to do the terrible things he did to preserve that relationship. The books show him coming to that understanding about himself, but the show has done nothing of the sort (it's even added in some extra murder of Alton for Jaime to do because he needed to get back to Cersei or whatever.) 

For me, the repetition of "you don't get to choose who you love" is just a reminder of how badly the show has messed up Jaime's plot.

It actually was. They were creating the basis of their potential love: I saw that as an Unsullied, and then, knew how much greater it was due to the books:

Oh, I don't remember if it has been repeated. But if Ellaria did it, it's just an example of how a beautiful thing can be destroyed. Because Ellaria is like a joke.

If now they decided to make Cersei and Jaime a bigger thing than what it actually is (which they are doing), that doesn't disminiss that this line was JB's, it only confirms that they wanted to butcher what they were actually doing well.

[Le Cygne]

I'm not saying they didn't mess up things on the show, I'm just saying I think that's how they are going to use that line. They seeded it here, with him in her arms, that's how they do things, they hint and hint and hint forever, until you are sick of the whole mess, and they they'll just plop it into the show out of nowhere.

[Meera of Tarth]

It's like after the Sapphire scene, we don't know in whose arms Jaime wants to die with. The woman he loves.

Everybody thinks it's Cersei. But is it a coincidence that he says that just after the Tarth gaze?

I thought it was Brienne's, or, either that he was confused, with him not knowing exactly who that woman would be (and the audience should have to discover it).

However, that was right before they messed his character with Dorne, but, more importantly, before him being destroyed in the arms of Cersei in Season 6.

[Meera of Tarth]

3 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

I'm not saying they didn't mess up things on the show, I'm just saying I think that's how they are going to use that line. They seeded it here, with him in her arms, that's how they do things, they hint and hint and hint forever, until you are sick of the whole mess, and they they'll just plop it into the show out of nowhere.

Just noticed he says that in Brienne's arms.....and he wants to die in the arms of the woman he loves. Interesting.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

If Brienne and Jamies little love jolly has to take a break and rejoin later on because the show has other far more important concerns to be getting on with then I'm more than happy with that. If it doesn't happen at all I will shrug my shoulders and carry on enjoying the show. 

[Le Cygne]

6 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Just noticed he says that in Brienne's arms.....and he wants to die in the arms of the woman he loves. Interesting.

Yeah, I think they were hinting about Brienne there, too. It's a double meaning, they do that with SanSan, too.

They've been dropping beauty and beast hints all over the place in both stories, season after season.

Brienne calls herself a beast. Jaime calls her a beast. That's not about Cersei. And BatB is a romance.

[Tianzi]

On 3.06.2016 at 4:53 AM, HoodedCrow said:

 

Jaime charged up the steps to save his sons wife from humiliation , Lancelot style, and to take on the Sparrows, and it is a bold knightly move. But Marg doesn't want to be rescued because she made other arrangements, Mmkay?

Jaime could actually remember than an episode or two ago they decided that the Crown people/Lannisters will stay away from this intervention.

On 1.06.2016 at 11:27 PM, Good Guy Garlan said:

I would've used Bronn as a stand in for Hyle Hunt, both being unscrupulous golddiggers. 

Also, I don't know if it's because he doesn't have as many lines as he used to (or maybe it just seems that way to me) but I'm finding Nikolaj's accent a bit too jarring this season, I don't know. 

I don't know, that would change the whole dynamics, because Bronn is (sorta) Jaime's underling.

Back to Jaime, considering the changed history between him and Cersei, i really hope they will have the sense to omit the 'cool' letter-burning scene, since I seriously find letting their daughter be killed right under his nose (and that's just one example) being a worse offence than a little Lancel action.

[LadySoftheart]

4 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Just noticed he says that in Brienne's arms.....and he wants to die in the arms of the woman he loves. Interesting.

Oh I know it was meant to foreshadow Brienne and Jaime coming to care for each other.  But what I mean is that it's a line that sounds good but which is actually not that meaningful - you DO choose how you act on your feelings. The point of Jaime's story is more "the things I DO for love" which are both evil (trying to kill Bran) and good (rescuing Brienne) and what Jaime DOES for love is always about making a choice. So for me... That line is still deeply troubling  

[Meera of Tarth]

6 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Yeah, I think they were hinting about Brienne there, too. It's a double meaning, they do that with SanSan, too.

They've been dropping beauty and beast hints all over the place in both stories, season after season.

Brienne calls herself a beast. Jaime calls her a beast. That's not about Cersei. And BatB is a romance.

Those little beautiful hints in the middle of the storm.  

[Étoile du Soir]

On 4/6/2016 at 8:18 PM, LadySoftheart said:

That's what I thought in season 3 - that it was meant to be about Brienne. But they keep repeating it - last time it was Fauxllaria being "understanding" about the Twincest - so at this point it just sets my teeth on edge. Plus, you may not get to choose whether you fall in love but how you act on that is definitely a choice. Maybe Jaime couldn't help falling for his sister but he *chose* to keep a sexual relationship with her for years and to do the terrible things he did to preserve that relationship. The books show him coming to that understanding about himself, but the show has done nothing of the sort (it's even added in some extra murder of Alton for Jaime to do because he needed to get back to Cersei or whatever.) 

For me, the repetition of "you don't get to choose who you love" is just a reminder of how badly the show has messed up Jaime's plot.

Agreed, if that line was employed as a narrative device to effectively hint at a love story for J/B along the way, that was a near miss, but they're evidently going about it the wrong way, that much I concede.

Jaime's relationship with Cersei may thus carry the weight of lifelong acquaintance, but it is a connection substantially foiled by the realization that the twins are seeing only in glimpses, or through distorted lenses. Notwithstanding that Jaime now shares a very important bond with Brienne, which issues a momentous challenge to readers and characters alike, for assessments of character are so clearly determined by the interior lives of the protagonists. Their interactions begin to also raise questions about how to know truly another human being, and, Jaime's bath confession, most of all, is characteristic of the irreverent narration of ASoIaF, as it challenges conventional assumptions and unexamined opinions. Neither of the two, initially, appear to crave the other's company, but they are both transformed by it, and so too is the reader in the text.

True, harbouring feelings of a certain quality for someone does not always come with a choice, nor can any particular sentiment morph into love at the drop of a hat. All the same, that, in the context of Jaime's relationship with Cersei, is ultimately missing the point. On one hand, in a society such as that sketched out by the author in the course of the series, arranged marriages/unions of convenience are the norm, that the capacity to initiate/maintain a sexual relationship with a partner of one's own choosing should be limited to a select few cases. So far as J/C, however, they definitely chose to be in a relationship - it wasn’t something out of their control. And book!Jaime certainly never felt sorry or guilty for any part of it, and didn’t regard it as something out of his control, that he just couldn’t help doing. Quite the opposite, in fact.

Any form of idiosyncratic utterance that could take on the hues of various externalized soliloquies, say, along the lines of "why did the gods make me love a hateful woman?" is noticeably absent in the books, too. He did place Cersei upon a pedestal, but he was wholly committed to her, too, no two ways about it. Then, of course, he finally saw that their affair they had going for years would not quite live up to what he had built it up to be, at which point he does distance himself emotionally from her, finally rejecting her symbolically by burning her letter in Feast, the climax to his character arc, and a long-time coming, no pun, at that, in contention with released core canon. 

Yet more like instances, the show misses by a mile...

[Meera of Tarth]

18 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

If Brienne and Jamies little love jolly has to take a break and rejoin later on because the show has other far more important concerns to be getting on with then I'm more than happy with that. If it doesn't happen at all I will shrug my shoulders and carry on enjoying the show. 

I think it will start very very soon.

The problem is that they settled it so beautifully, like with those statements: Brienne holding Jaime and he saying we don't get to choose who we love, or The Tarth Gaze, or the ambiguous I want to die in the arms of the woman I love....etc

but the last episodes have been a lot of Cersei. So I suspect they are going to start changing the pattern as soon as he meets Brienne again, in the next episode or the other. It won't be like in the books because of the things I mentioned (they shouldn't have focused too much on Cersei, it has made a lot of pain to JB's fans) but things will start to move on. Same for Brienne. She hasn't thought of him in two seasons, so they will meet not as platonic lovers, but like long time friends. But I'm sure something will happen, although more slowly.

[Meera of Tarth]

13 minutes ago, LadySoftheart said:

Oh I know it was meant to foreshadow Brienne and Jaime coming to care for each other.  But what I mean is that it's a line that sounds good but which is actually not that meaningful - you DO choose how you act on your feelings. The point of Jaime's story is more "the things I DO for love" which are both evil (trying to kill Bran) and good (rescuing Brienne) and what Jaime DOES for love is always about making a choice. So for me... That line is still deeply troubling  

I think it's meaningful, The problem is that they have messed it a lot after and now we can't feel it's the same story.

I also agree that Jaime doing the things he does for love is another important line in his storyline, both for the good and for the bad.

[Meera of Tarth]

20 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

Jaime could actually remember than an episode or two ago they decided that the Crown people/Lannisters will stay away from this intervention.

I don't know, that would change the whole dynamics, because Bronn is (sorta) Jaime's underling.

Back to Jaime, considering the changed history between him and Cersei, i really hope they will have the sense to omit the 'cool' letter-burning scene, since I seriously find letting their daughter be killed right under his nose (and that's just one example) being a worse offence than a little Lancel action.

I'm almost sure it will be omitted. The only reason for not omitting it would be to accelerate JB's love story, and I don't think it will move fast, on the contrary.

Besides, after Jaime and Cersei's encounters, it would be really bad storytelling, because Cersei has already told him that she has The MOuntain, after Jaime told her he wanted to be with her (implying for anything she would like him to be). But, weird things have happened before. So, who knows.

[Étoile du Soir]

Also I was still adding to that, but an important part of Jaime's character arc is about making a choice, particularly when none of the alternatives that face the character on course should ultimately work out, proverbial benefit of hindsight applied to for good measure, in his best interest. This want of personal deployment in shaping his story morally is explored by the author with a hefty touch during the siege of KL, just as well that he would pen in details of past experience and personal acquaintance, because Jaime's big moment with Aerys there is definitely the matrix on which Brienne's later encounter with the BWB and LS is modeled on, Lem comes right out and says to her, choose. (And even before that, Jaime would be confronted with the prospect of yet another development, which he might eventually heed under his own steam, when he decided to forswear Casterly Rock for Cersei, and that was a decision that, we're meant to infer, came at a cost to Jaime, too.)

Of course, there's that the reader of the novel, privileged with a number of perceptions, is made aware of the interdependence of emotional, or even moral, judgments that provide such a rich seam to successive characters (here it is Brienne that is plagued by a set of dilemmas that matches the literary choices confronting the author), and though GRRM himself displays a great enjoyment in teasing out the relationships between representation, belief, and prejudice, these connections emerge subtly, through corresponding scenes and accumulating conversations. (That's, in no small part, the follow-up to Jaime's bathtub confession in the castle of Harrenhal, where he tells Brienne Robert had a choice in all that came to pass, and yet she's adamant that Robert's wartime conduct itself was permissible, if for no other reason than his was a case of acting out of unabiding love.)

Just thinking along the gap of time since Brienne was rather privileged to find herself in Jaime's midst when he stuttered out the words (and GRRM was, quite assuredly, going for the Disney parallel there, he had Brienne force out a tentative disclosure of Jaime's changed, at last report, ways, like Belle defended Beast before the villagers when they wanted to storm his castle), but that's the shoe that hasn't dropped yet, what is ahead. And that's the coming-of-age quality the story recalls to vivid evocation, as much as what came before, upon her run-in with Biter, she found herself at the Inn at the Crossroads (there's a pattern in several stories, if anything, the location reveals certain connections with Arya's story, too, it directly involves the semiotics of choice.) Then, she contemplated going back to Tarth, but the thought did strike her, fleetingly, that she might return to KL and admit her failure to Jaime.

Thematically, it would have so much more fitting if they had kept these few bits in, instead of making random plot points up, of course...

[Sigella]

On 4 juni 2016 at 4:30 PM, Chickren said:

He learns about Lancel, Kettleblack, Moonboy, etc from Tyrion in ASoS.

It isn't confirmed until he goes to Darry. But he knows, and is stewing on it, way before that point.

Topic: It's a shame the show has made Jaime such a laughing stock up to this point. I hope it doesn't lessen the impact of the humor of the verbal evisceration he has coming in the next episode (based on what I see in the trailers).

He is in denial until Darry. 

[Ser Biscuit]

This hasn't been our Jamie since he kin-slayed back in season 2. It's only been getting worse since then. Our Jamie will never be in this show. He's gone, and Larry is in his place. No matter what they try to do with him on the show, he'll always be Larry.

[Chickren]

11 hours ago, Sigella said:

He is in denial until Darry. 

Assuming you mean the grief kind of denial, the kind where you know something has happened but are having trouble accepting it, then yes, I agree. 

Regardless, the show has not been faithful to the books in delaying Jaime's knowledge that Cersei is sleeping with other men besides her husband and himself.