Rickon and Osha Discussion

[hallam]

8 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

The Umbers aren't the assassinating type.

Probably not. But they might well be have Rickon open up the secret tunnel in the crypts and let people in type.

[ummester]

13 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

Robb will have very little to do with the ending of the story. He must be filler too.

Robb is directly related to the War of the 5 Kings which was part of the original plan and required setup for the stories conclusion.

I think anyone (either a book reader or show watcher) who doesn't think this story expanded past it's original conception and in doing so went a bit off the rails is in denial.

[hallam]

2 minutes ago, ummester said:

Robb is directly related to the War of the 5 Kings which was part of the original plan and required setup for the stories conclusion.

I think anyone (either a book reader or show watcher) who doesn't think this story expanded past it's original conception and in doing so went a bit off the rails is in denial.

I think that is certainly true of the books. The show is a lot tighter in many places and a heck of  a lot more disciplined. Like you might expect a second draft to be. The plots are a lot tighter and a lot less self indulgent.

BTW, in this weeks episode, Jon slaughters four people, including a boy and another six are slaughtered in the ToJ flashback scene. And what do people complain about? The dead doggie.

[Lord_Ravenstone]

9 minutes ago, ummester said:

Robb is directly related to the War of the 5 Kings which was part of the original plan and required setup for the stories conclusion.

I think anyone (either a book reader or show watcher) who doesn't think this story expanded past it's original conception and in doing so went a bit off the rails is in denial.

The GNC is about putting a Stark back in Winterfell which I'm sure was part of GRRM's original plan. 

Some of the plots people put down as filler are things GRRM planned since book one. Aegon being the primary one.

[Lord_Ravenstone]

7 minutes ago, hallam said:

I think that is certainly true of the books. The show is a lot tighter in many places and a heck of  a lot more disciplined. Like you might expect a second draft to be. The plots are a lot tighter and a lot less self indulgent.

BTW, in this weeks episode, Jon slaughters four people, including a boy and another six are slaughtered in the ToJ flashback scene. And what do people complain about? The dead doggie.

More disciplined? I mean I'm not so sure about that. They seem equally likely to go off on a bit of a tangent.

We just got a 5 minute scene where Tyrion talks to Missandei and Grey Worm about what to talk about.

And we got another 5 minute scene of Cersei and Jaime being rejected from conversing with the Small Council. Neither of these scenes moved the story.

[ummester]

12 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

The GNC is about putting a Stark back in Winterfell which I'm sure was part of GRRM's original plan. 

Some of the plots people put down as filler are things GRRM planned since book one. Aegon being the primary one.

If Aegon was planned since book 1 why is there no mention before book 4?

Jeez - you don't need to be a rocket scientist to see what is happened here - GRRM was invested in this series, turned 3 great books out really quickly. D&D read them and (rightly) thought they would make a great TV show. So GRRM sold them a vague outline wherever he was headed at the time, which isn't fully where he is headed now, if he even knows where he is headed.

GRRM and the showrunners forgot to follow the rule of Ps. Prior preparation and planning prevents piss poor performance. Whatever vague plans they had were obviously changed, or tinkered with too much and now all of their performance is piss poor.

If GRRM was still invested, or knew where he was going, he wouldn't be writing so slow.
 

18 minutes ago, hallam said:

I think that is certainly true of the books. The show is a lot tighter in many places and a heck of  a lot more disciplined. Like you might expect a second draft to be. The plots are a lot tighter and a lot less self indulgent.

BTW, in this weeks episode, Jon slaughters four people, including a boy and another six are slaughtered in the ToJ flashback scene. And what do people complain about? The dead doggie.

It's true of the show also - if they had a complete and sensible draft for 7 seasons of material, the storytelling wouldn't be turning to shit in places.

[ToTheWolves]

15 hours ago, White Harbors Wrath said:

Rickon was scared. It was Shaggydog. Umber had motivation, better than most on this show. Just because you don't want it to be true, doesn't mean its not.

 

I agree. People are setting themselves up for disappointment.

[WolfOfWinter]

Why the fuck are the Umbers punishung Rickon for soemthing his bastard brother at the Wall did?

If they hate wildlings so much, why is Osha still alive and why bring her to WF to begin with when Rickon alone is needed to convince Ramsay of the Umbers' loyalty?

The Umbers don't want the wildlings to head south, so they hand Jon's little brother over to a psychopath, ensuring Jon and the wildlings will leave the Wall and head south?

Kinslaying used to be unforgivable in the eyes of gods and men alike once upon a time in the show, but now the Umbers are swearing fealty to a kinslaying psychopathic child murderer because "ehh I hated my dad too." Wtf.

I'm hopeful for this to be the GNC being brought to the screen because otherwise it's stupid as fuck, but I don't have any faith in these writers when it comes to logic or consistensy. If you'd asked me three years ago what my favorite show on air was, I'd say Game of Thrones without hesitating, but it's not even in my top 20 list anymore.

[jbob]

I'm seen a lot of people saying it couldn't be Shaggydog and it's all a trick. Well, what if it is Shaggydog but it's still a trick? They sacrificed the direwolf to make the plan work.

But I doubt it.  This really is a betrayal. Not that I have a problem with that. Especially since this Smalljon is a hell of a lot more memorable than the version. Actually, I would prefer him as the villain. Actor did a good job.

[ToTheWolves]

Had posted this in another thread. Not sure how true it is. I know one of these pop up every year.

 

Spoiler

Some guy who apparently is a wildlings extra in the battle this year had posted this. The interesting part is he has onset photos with cast members and other extras. But who knows it could still be fake  but he claims

 

-Ramsay brings rickon out right before the battle while facing off with Jon and the wildlings. He then tells rickon "run...or don't run...it makes no difference". Rickon takes off running towards Jon but then Ramsay looses arrows at rickon hitting him in the back.before rickon and Jon reach each other. He didn't say how many, but he did say he's not sure if rickon dies or not.

 

-he gave more details about the battle too. I can't really remember word for word, but he did say the vale shows up to save the day. Ramsay ends up retreating back into winterfell. Wun-Wun breaks(or lifts) the gates of winterfell for Jon.Jon chases ramsay down and beats him with to death with his bare hands.

 

[Greg B]

I don't know if it's really Shaggydog. I love that I don't know if it's really Shaggydog.

[hallam]

4 minutes ago, ToTheWolves said:

Had posted this in another thread. Not sure how true it is. I know one of these pop up every year.

 

  Hide contents

 

 

And other folk say

Spoiler

that there are two crosses with main characters strapped to them that Ramsay sets fire to during the battle.

And the showrunners are devious types who might easily film some fake scenes just to confuse.

 

[ToTheWolves]

And also the shaggy dog head looks exactly the same size as ghosts...if not bigger.

[Greg B]

24 minutes ago, ToTheWolves said:

And also the shaggy dog head looks exactly the same size as ghosts...if not bigger.

I don't think that's a fact in evidence. If you look at screen caps of Grey Wind's head on Robb's body, that's at least a two-hook wolf head, if not more. Could be nothing more than a consistency issue -- different props for different scenes -- but they aren't close to the same size.

ETA: Ghost is the runt of the litter.

 

[Smoke317]

Spoiler

Plus the casting leaks called for a Northern Lord in his 60's who turns sides and gives a stirring speech. That'll be Manderly and the "north remembers". Umber is the Lord with a "deep hatred". For wildlings...  I'm guessing the "new" Lord Cerwyn who "paid his taxes" after his father was flayed by Ramsey will be the young Northern Lord thrust into a position of power before he was ready.  

People believing in the Umber fake out are unbelievably optimistic.  No way you give a psychopath like Ramsay the last known living heir to your liege Lord if you still support them. Ramsey already flayed Lord Cerwyn "living" as well as his wife and another over taxes.  Also killed his own father, stepmom, and baby brother.  If the show was being realistic and consistent , he's already flaying Rickon and a part of him will be in the pink letter...  And the reason Umber doesn't kneel to Ramsey is because he's a badass just like his father was. He ain't gonna sugarcoat a thing. He doesn't respect or like Ramsey or the Karstarks. And the ONLY reason he's there is because he needs help vs the wildlings. 

[Lord_Ravenstone]

1 hour ago, Greg B said:

I don't think that's a fact in evidence. If you look at screen caps of Grey Wind's head on Robb's body, that's at least a two-hook wolf head, if not more. Could be nothing more than a consistency issue -- different props for different scenes -- but they aren't close to the same size.

ETA: Ghost is the runt of the litter.

 

Art Parkinson confirmed its Shaggydog's head.

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/game-of-thrones-art-parkinson_us_5730d3c3e4b016f378968aee

 

[RoamingRonin]

Sorry to say but Shaggydog is dead, folks. Looks like the CGI budget is going into the dragons and Ghost this season.

58 minutes ago, Greg B said:

I don't think that's a fact in evidence. If you look at screen caps of Grey Wind's head on Robb's body, that's at least a two-hook wolf head, if not more. Could be nothing more than a consistency issue -- different props for different scenes -- but they aren't close to the same size.

ETA: Ghost is the runt of the litter.

According to the books, Lady was the smallest of the litter. Summer was a bit bigger than Shaggydog, if I recall correctly.

2 hours ago, WolfOfWinter said:

If they hate wildlings so much, why is Osha still alive and why bring her to WF to begin with when Rickon alone is needed to convince Ramsay of the Umbers' loyalty?

Kinslaying used to be unforgivable in the eyes of gods and men alike once upon a time in the show, but now the Umbers are swearing fealty to a kinslaying psychopathic child murderer because "ehh I hated my dad too." Wtf.

Osha must be a prize for Theon. He gets to flay her alive for what she did.

The Book-Umbers wouldn't align with Ramsay but this is the show's version of the Umbers. They're going to be a lot different.

[Lord_Ravenstone]

3 hours ago, ummester said:

If Aegon was planned since book 1 why is there no mention before book 4?

Jeez - you don't need to be a rocket scientist to see what is happened here - GRRM was invested in this series, turned 3 great books out really quickly. D&D read them and (rightly) thought they would make a great TV show. So GRRM sold them a vague outline wherever he was headed at the time, which isn't fully where he is headed now, if he even knows where he is headed.

GRRM and the showrunners forgot to follow the rule of Ps. Prior preparation and planning prevents piss poor performance. Whatever vague plans they had were obviously changed, or tinkered with too much and now all of their performance is piss poor.

If GRRM was still invested, or knew where he was going, he wouldn't be writing so slow.
 

It's true of the show also - if they had a complete and sensible draft for 7 seasons of material, the storytelling wouldn't be turning to shit in places.

Juat because they're introduced later doesn't mean they weren't planned from the beginning. Oberyn comes to mind. Bran has a vision of him in AGOT but he's only introduced in book 3.

The idea for Aegon was there since book one because the clues for him are there.

Varys and Illyrio are undermining the throne and apparently want someone else on the Iron Throne and the face of it is that it's Viserys but there are blatantly strong clues that it's no Viserys they want on there. Varys says he's for the realm to Ned but he would know Viserys was mad so putting him  on the throne is bonkers and anything but for the realm.

There'a definitely a strong implication that they have an alternative candidate in mind. 

At worst you can say Aegon's been planned since book 2. Personally, I think he planted the seed for Aegon in book 1 and book 2 is when he firmly committed to the idea.

Reason being that Daenerys has a vision of the Mummer's Dragon in HOTU who is supposed to represent Aegon.

 

According to someone who knows GRRM between book 1 and book 2 is when GRRM made a big outline of his story and decided that it needed to be much bigger.

The HOTU visions is basically this outline that he's showing to us of what he wants to do.

There are events there like Daenerys freeing the dosh khaleen that aren't even happening until the next book.

[Baelor_the_Blessed]

The purpose of the series shouldn't be to inflict the maximum amount of death, destruction, disfigurement on the Stark family. Even if Rickon doesn't figure to play a big role in the end-game, I hope they don't kill him... and certainly not in the horrific manner suggested by his imprisonment with Ramsay.

If they keep this up, the only remaining Stark will be Tony! Wouldn't that make for a great ending, though? Iron Man on the Iron Throne!

[Ser Kafka]

I hope so. The GNC is one of the arcs I find most intriguing so would be loath to see it cast aside, which I thought they might've done with Davos not being sent away.