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Rickon and Osha Discussion


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3 minutes ago, Darksky said:

Rickon as Lord Stark (Bran is believed to be dead by everyone but a few people) is a valuable hostage, just like Sansa was. Ramsay will use him as a figurehead to try to rally the North against the bastard NW deserter with an 'invading Wildling army'. He will use him to draw Jon and Sansa out. To have them act rashly, on emotion. Likelier to make mistakes then.

Shaggydogg was killed because he became a liability once Rickon became a captive. It's easier to just kill the beast with a crossbow than try to handle it. Why run the risk of more deaths and injuries by keeping it alive? There's no point in it.  It's why Grey Worm was killed.

The Umbers have been established to really hate the Wildlings. And they want to be prepared for a potential invasion. For that they need reinforcements, especially given that they had just come off the War of the Five Kings, which must have put a dent in their manpower. Boltons and Karstarks have bigger forces than any other Northern House. Makes sense to seek their help. They all face the same 'threat'. You scratch my back, I scratch yours but we're not chumps is what the scene in Oathbreaker was about.

Smalljon didn't want to pledge to Ramsay but he had to bring something to the table for there would be no alliance. Enter Rickon. He knows Ramsay is a mad dog but won't just kill a Stark on the spot. Rickon gives them advantage. 

Once Sansa doesn't come back to him, Jon doesn't yield to Ramsay to get Rickon (Jon will know he's bluffing anyway. Only way to try to rescue Rickon is through sheer force) and they rally some Northern amies and Wildlings for a battle, Rickon will lose his value.

This plot is coherent and straightforward. It's coming along nicely.

 

I'm not following.

How does holding Rickon Stark captive "rally" the North for the Boltons?  A Stark that willingly marries a Bolton is a very different thing than a child hostage.  

Wouldn't the Umbers have had a better chance of getting Bolton to fight the wildlings if they kept Rickon until after the wildlings were defeated?  Isn't that how this tit for tat stuff works?

Indeed, why would the Boltons keep Rickon alive for 5 minutes?  He's a direct threat.  He is the heir to Winterfell, his very presence makes Ramsay a pretender.  

And killing the wolf was likewise stupid, without the direwolf, Rickon Stark could be anyone because there is no one left except his own family who can identify him.  In fact, the Umbers could have gotten the same result with a fake Rickon and a fake wolf.

So, the plot is woefully stupid, even stupider than Sansa's plot last year and that is really saying something.

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One is Lord Stark (as far as anyone knows), the other is Lady Bolton. Male heir before female in that society. Rickon shows up, Sansa loses any claim on Winterfell. Hence he is more valuable. The Northerners would be more willing to rally under Lord Stark than Lady Bolton, previously a Stark.

They kept Shaggydog's head as proof. They only need to convince Ramsay of Rickon's identity. Karstarks will follow Boltons, and there's potential for more once the word gets out.

You know that's what happened in the books wih fArya. There's even less to convince anyone of Arya. No direwolf (dead or alive) to prove her identity, no one to recognise her,  the word got out and the Northerners (including Jon) are willing to gather forces for her despite having no confirmation (how aren't they considering the possiility of a scheme? It's traitorous Boltons). So I would be careful to question the Shaggydog-Rickon identity matter in the show in your place. Because that's hypocritical if you accept fArya plot in the books.

As long as Rickon is under Ramsay's thumb and Ramsay has forces of Bolton, Karstark and Umber armies, it makes more sense to keep him alive. He is no threat  the moment. He gives them an advantage against the Stark bastard aka NW deserter and his despised Wildlings. Ramsay will taunt Jon with Rickon and Jon will play into his hands by amassing an army for the battle. If I were Ramsay, I'd try to pass it off as a greedy bastard trying to usurp the seat of the rightful Lord of Winterfell.  Bastards have a bad rep in all Westeros kingdoms bar Dorne, given the history and prevalent misconceptions about them (mainly due to religion), so it's an easy sell. Especially coupled with said bastard being a Night's Watch deserter and commanding a Wildling army.

 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Darksky said:

One is Lord Stark (as far as anyone knows), the other is Lady Bolton. Male heir before female in that society. Rickon shows up, Sansa loses any claim on Winterfell. Hence he is more valuable. The Northerners would be more willing to rally under Lord Stark than Lady Bolton, previously a Stark.

They kept Shaggydog's head as proof. They only need to convince Ramsay of Rickon's identity. Karstarks will follow Boltons, and there's potential for more once the word gets out.

You know that's what happened in the books wih fArya. There's even less to convince anyone of Arya. No direwolf (dead or alive) to prove her identity, no one to recognise her,  the word got out and the Northerners (including Jon) are willing to gather forces for her despite having no confirmation (how aren't they considering the possiility of a scheme? It's traitorous Boltons). So I would be careful to question the Shaggydog-Rickon identity matter in the show in your place. Because that's hypocritical if you accept fArya plot in the books.

As long as Rickon is under Ramsay's thumb and Ramsay has forces of Bolton, Karstark and Umber armies, it makes more sense to keep him alive. He is no threat  the moment. He gives them an advantage against the Stark bastard aka NW deserter and his despised Wildlings. Ramsay will taunt Jon with Rickon and Jon will play into his hands by amassing an army for the battle. If I were Ramsay, I'd try to pass it off as a greedy bastard trying to usurp the seat of the rightful Lord of Winterfell.  Bastards have a bad rep in all Westeros kingdoms bar Dorne, given the history and prevalent misconceptions about them (mainly due to religion), so it's an easy sell. Especially coupled with said bastard being a Night's Watch deserter and commanding a Wildling army.

 

 

 

Lord Rickon Stark is a prisoner of House Bolton, the house that betrayed the North and Robb Stark.  So, how is this a rallying point?  If anything the Northerners, knowing a Stark male is alive, would kill Ramsay where he stood, on the spot.  His life wouldn't be worth shit with a male Stark known to be alive and well.

The plot is stupid, we will have to agree to disagree.  No one's actions make sense or are logical or even advantageous to themselves or their families.

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LOL You think they will make it apparent Rickon is a captive controlled by Ramsay? They will make it seem that Ramsay is willing  to make amends for his father's betrayal and restore a Stark to his rightful place. Sansa will be going around telling a different story which is why some Northern Houses will rally under her and Jon. But she can't reach everyone, and the hatred for bastards, deserters and Wildlings is strong with many Northerners. Now will be a case of who to believe, whose word is more convincing, whose word gets to where. It's a battle for allies.

But whatever, can't take bias, premature judgment and bitterness seriously.

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Rickon is a huge threat to Ramsey,as a male heir to Winterfell, and we know what Ramsey does to anyone who "threatens" his position.  If the other houses were "rallying" around Rickon no one would be turning him over to a person who killed his own father, not even for a ploy, too risky of a move to offer such a valuable assest to a crazed madman.   I am preparing myself for the fact that Osha will be killed by Ramsey's dogs and Rickon will be flayed on the battlefield.  

 

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Darksky said:

LOL You think they will make it apparent Rickon is a captive controlled by Ramsay? They will make it seem that Ramsay is willing  to make amends for his father's betrayal and restore a Stark to his rightful place.

Wut?

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31 minutes ago, Darksky said:

 

I hate to be biased and all...but why would anyone in the North believe Ramsay is going to be regent or something for Rickon?
 

The guy who stabbed his own father and fed his mother and half brother to his dogs?  Fed his gf to his dogs.  Flays people alive for failure to pay taxes. And whose Stark bride jumped off a wall to escape him.

And you can't say no one knows any of this, since Karstark was present and Umber indicates he knows also about the kinslaying.

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Rickon will be killed eventually. There's no reason to kill him right away. Ramsay being Ramsay (not very calculating and cautious) will want to play with him and use him as a bait against Jon. He feels unchallenged now, wih Karstarks and Umbers on his side (like he said in E02). He sees Rickon as no threat, and that's what he is. He can't do anything, he is just a boy and he is convinced other Northern Houses can't do shit against his forces even if they decided to fight him for Rickon. He is ambitious, bold and overconfident. He also underestimates people like his father underestimated him. Those factors will be his downfall. 

Going by the potential leaks, Ramsay won't have any more allies but the ones he already has. He either tries to gather more but fails or he feels the forces he has are enough. So Rickon might just be to taunt and mess with Jon. Maybe he will ask for an exchange. Sansa for Rickon.

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Umbers and Karstarks are the biggest Houses besides Starks (who are depleted) in the North, so Ramsay's confidence is understandable.

Smalljon saw right through the poison ruse, but that doesn't mean everyone will. No one but two people saw Roose's death, and no one saw Walda and the baby's. Will a word of her death even get out? It's not like it can be easily found out. They don't have internet or TV here.

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3 minutes ago, Darksky said:

Umbers and Karstarks are the biggest Houses besides Starks (who are depleted) in the North, so Ramsay's confidence is understandable.

Smalljon saw right through the poison ruse, but that doesn't mean everyone will. No one but two people saw Roose's death, and no one saw Walda and the baby's. Will a word of her death even get out? It's not like it can be easily found out. They don't have internet or TV here.

What about the lord he flayed for failure to pay his taxes?  You saying that won't get out either?  What do that lord's bannermen think happened to him, LOL? 

You don't think anyone saw Walda go into the kennel and never come out?  Or, nobody in WF is going to wonder what happened to her body and the baby?  LOL again.

 

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1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

What about the lord he flayed for failure to pay his taxes?  You saying that won't get out either?  What do that lord's bannermen think happened to him, LOL? 

You don't think anyone saw Walda go into the kennel and never come out?  Or, nobody in WF is going to wonder what happened to her body and the baby?  LOL again.

 

If we look at things logically then there is no way the Northern lords wouldn't suspect a known monster like Ramsay to have murdered his father and his brother but this show has a pattern of making characters act out of their established character for the sake of the plot. So honestly we shouldn't look at it logically because the dummies running things aren't likely to be looking at things logically and therefore what makes sense isn't what is likely to happen.

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On 9.5.2016 at 11:31 AM, White Harbors Wrath said:

Rickon was scared. It was Shaggydog. Umber had motivation, better than most on this show. Just because you don't want it to be true, doesn't mean its not.

 

Agree. It is wishful thinking to hope R&O planned this. D&D keep things "simple" nowaday, no way they layered this scene with some plot. It is the same as last years Sansa's marriage/wedding night/rape at Winterfell. 

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8 hours ago, Wrycthen said:

I am still Team Rickon. After I was robbed by Stannis' death, they need to let my boy live.

Oh my. You have a hand for lost causes it seems. Rickon is very likely toast. The best we can hope for is that Osha comes up with sth witty or desperate and gets a (literal) piece of Ramsay before she bites the dust. 

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Rickon wil die, I'm sure because writers will make everything for Jon to shine this season, Rickon is an obstacle to Jon to become lord of Winterfell, so Stark or not he must die, nobody will steal the thunder of Jon  :excl:

And I'm waiting the rape of Osha by Ramsay, Last year, they made the rape of Sansa by Ramsay and they fucked up her storyline and made her a victim again and then they said they wanted to be as real as possible to the characters, so I'm wainting to D&D to stay real on this one also

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I think the fShaggydog theory has more merit than wishful thinking.  Because it's unoriginal, it would be an exact mirror to Manderly presenting a ruse in the form of Davos's head.  I would really like to think that the Umbers have not truly betrayed the Starks.  They were loyal, even in the show.  

Also, I think everyone assumes that there will be "a Stark in Winterfell" at the end of the series.  I always thought this would be Rickon, as he is approximately 4 years old in the book, and would kind of hide in the background until the end.  Sansa's child wouldn't be a true Stark, neither would Jon (technically, he would be a Targ), Arya and Bran seem unlikely.  Rob is dead.  That leaves Rickon.

However, Martin has said that originally, the main characters of the series were Arya, Bran, Jon, Dany, and Tyrion.   Conveniently, if ShaggyDog is dead, the only direwolves who remain are for the main characters, and obviously we have a few living dragons for the other two.

If ShaggyDog is indeed dead, I think Rickon is toast.  Especially the uneventful way the direwolf died, off screen three years after the fact.  If Rickon amounts to anything plot wise, his direwolf deserved a little better than that.  

That leaves the question, if Rickon is not going to be the "stark in winterfell", who will be?  Or will there even be one?

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35 minutes ago, TheLastLibrarian said:

Rickon wil die, I'm sure because writers will make everything for Jon to shine this season, Rickon is an obstacle to Jon to become lord of Winterfell, so Stark or not he must die, nobody will steal the thunder of Jon  :excl:

And I'm waiting the rape of Osha by Ramsay, Last year, they made the rape of Sansa by Ramsay and they fucked up her storyline and made her a victim again and then they said they wanted to be as real as possible to the characters, so I'm wainting to D&D to stay real on this one also

More like Sansa. Jon as bastard can't inherit a thing, Sansa would be the one to be Queen in the North. In fact D&D or who said that this is the season for women and them taking control. Daeny, Cersei, Sansa, Arya.

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