Dayne dual wielding

[sweetsunray]

Greatswords were used as a type of lance sword by infantry: http://www.thearma.org/essays/2HGS.html

[Apple the Great]

3 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I really dislike they went for the fanfic dual wielding (minus points for D&D and Director), but my hat's off for Luke Roberts. As a sword stunt act it is jaw-dropping, especially because they didn't just have one after the other taking a turn.

Agreed, looked more like something from Star Wars than a mediaeval era fantasy, but it still looked cool.

5 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Also - I know that everyone thinks the other KG is Whent because of his line and because he takes a backseat to Dayne in the convo, but the actor has apparently posted on his twitter that he's Hightower as an answer to the question which KG he was supposed to be.

So, it's actually Whent who's missing, though they have Hightower do the sword sharpening and quasi-line fits Whent mostly. His built though would probably fit Hightower better. He looked broad like a bull. But he's not old enough.

Awesome, thanks for this!

[TwiceBorn]

Martial arts are quite simple and limited by anatomy. To deliver a strike (a thrust or a swing) one has to rapidly twist the torso. In such motions the main power input comes from the two biggest and most powerful muscle groups: back and front upper body, while secondary biggest and strongest muscle group that is legs, helps to keep the balance. In comparison to those, the power input from the arms alone is irrelevant (though the arms and wrists are still important for griping and directing the blade). The torque generated by the upper body is more than enough to break through a simple block (even double arm!) least the opponent "puts a whole body" into it (that is twists himself) or cunningly redirects the hit.

 

It is quite obvious that twisting can be done only one way at a time, after which you either follow through with a spinning/tripping movement or recover to the neutral position. The latter takes too much time and so 99% cases the fighter will immediately twist back at full-speed, delivering another blow/parry or use the momentum to avoid the swift counter.

The dual wielding idiot can either swing his two swords in unison, chopping in most crude manner and leaving his other side open or deliver weak, uncoordinated arm strikes and parries. This includes ridiculous movements like spreading his arms apart or crossing the blades, both of which leaves him open for strikes he cannot defend or move away from. It does not matter how skillful or possibly ambidextrous he is. He has twice the mass to deal with, while having only half a grip. The momentum puts enormous strain on his arms and wrists. Not only he is incapable of any fencing, but also he gets tired more quickly, he is easier to disarm, he is more likely to accidently drop his sword and his movements are slower.

Despite tight choreography the attacking party members were so much faster than Dayne, and Ned so much better a fighter, that additional dialogue was needed to explain that we did not saw what we clearly saw. That alone is enough.

The truth about fighting is that it is much more about distance and speed than fancy moves, the exchanges are short and difficult to spot by a bystander unless slow-mo is used. So they invent ballets to entertain us and sooner or later they get overboard. Dual wielding Jaime was enough this time they have crossed the line with swapping Dawn with Scissor Sisters.

[Apple the Great]

7 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Greatswords were used as a type of lance sword by infantry: http://www.thearma.org/essays/2HGS.html

I read the article (skim-reading parts that seemed to be about the weight of the sword) and I didn't see where it said they were used a a type of lance sword. I can imagine with their reach they would be good at thrusting like a short spear but it seems like a pretty versatile weapon with good reach, no doubt a sharp cutting edge, and good concussive damage. In the hands of a skilled user no doubt it would be a very difficult sword to fight against.

[sweetsunray]

4 minutes ago, Apple the Great said:

I read the article (skim-reading parts that seemed to be about the weight of the sword) and I didn't see where it said they were used a a type of lance sword. I can imagine with their reach they would be good at thrusting like a short spear but it seems like a pretty versatile weapon with good reach, no doubt a sharp cutting edge, and good concussive damage. In the hands of a skilled user no doubt it would be a very difficult sword to fight against.

I read up on it last year, can't find the link anymore (might have been a youtube video or an article)

But here's a link to a picture to make the point: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/80/Schlacht_bei_Kappel.jpg/600px-Schlacht_bei_Kappel.jpg

You see 3 greatsword wielding infantry in the vanguard against a vangaurd wall of pikes and longswords advancing. If you search for historical depictions, that's where they usually are positioned: vanguard infantry. And the article I read or watched at the time pointed out that it functioned both as a piercing as well as a parry object.

[sweetsunray]

15 minutes ago, TwiceBorn said:

Martial arts are quite simple and limited by anatomy. To deliver a strike (a thrust or a swing) one has to rapidly twist the torso. In such motions the main power input comes from the two biggest and most powerful muscle groups: back and front upper body, while secondary biggest and strongest muscle group that is legs, helps to keep the balance. In comparison to those, the power input from the arms alone is irrelevant (though the arms and wrists are still important for griping and directing the blade). The torque generated by the upper body is more than enough to break through a simple block (even double arm!) least the opponent "puts a whole body" into it (that is twists himself) or cunningly redirects the hit.

 

 

It is quite obvious that twisting can be done only one way at a time, after which you either follow through with a spinning/tripping movement or recover to the neutral position. The latter takes too much time and so 99% cases the fighter will immediately twist back at full-speed, delivering another blow/parry or use the momentum to avoid the swift counter.

 

The dual wielding idiot can either swing his two swords in unison, chopping in most crude manner and leaving his other side open or deliver weak, uncoordinated arm strikes and parries. This includes ridiculous movements like spreading his arms apart or crossing the blades, both of which leaves him open for strikes he cannot defend or move away from. It does not matter how skillful or possibly ambidextrous he is. He has twice the mass to deal with, while having only half a grip. The momentum puts enormous strain on his arms and wrists. Not only he is incapable of any fencing, but also he gets tired more quickly, he is easier to disarm, he is more likely to accidently drop his sword and his movements are slower.

 

Despite tight choreography the attacking party members were so much faster than Dayne, and Ned so much better a fighter, that additional dialogue was needed to explain that we did not saw what we clearly saw. That alone is enough.

 

The truth about fighting is that it is much more about distance and speed than fancy moves, the exchanges are short and difficult to spot by a bystander unless slow-mo is used. So they invent ballets to entertain us and sooner or later they get overboard. Dual wielding Jaime was enough this time they have crossed the line with swapping Dawn with Scissor Sisters.

I know. They had to cover it up in the montage room how Dayne was often in a position that he could not defend himself from a certain side, because of it. They used close-ups for it, so you didn't have an overview and idea where one of Ned's men was, or staged the choreography so that at some point they formed a wall in front of him and there was no one beside or behind him... except of course at the end when he gets backstabbed.

[Apple the Great]

1 minute ago, sweetsunray said:

I read up on it last year, can't find the link anymore (might have been a youtube video or an article)

But here's a link to a picture to make the point: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/80/Schlacht_bei_Kappel.jpg/600px-Schlacht_bei_Kappel.jpg

You see 3 greatsword wielding infantry in the vanguard against a vangaurd wall of pikes and longswords advancing. If you search for historical depictions, that's where they usually are positioned: vanguard infantry. And the article I read or watched at the time pointed out that it functioned both as a piercing as well as a parry object.

From what I understand of how they were used, and that's not extensive, they were used to break up pike formations. The long reach of their swords could brush aside the tips of the pikes and then others could follow behind them. This doesn't then preclude them from using the reach of the swords to their advantage to stab people, in fact that's very sensible, since the arc of that sword would be massive and you'd risk injuring comrades, and a pike formation is quite dense. But they are not particularly heavy and I think they could have been used more like a longsword than people generally assume. I'm a big guy (185cm) and I know I could swing a sword of 3kg around quite comfortably for a few minutes, probably more with more training and fitness!

[Smoke317]

I didn't like the dual wielding with Dayne carrying the greatest sword in the history of westeros...  The least they could have done was gave Dawn it's due by letting Dayne start ONLY with Dawn then because of the even more disadvantageous odds after Whent goes down, Dayne kills a northerner and takes his sword. Then he dual wields until it's down to him and Ned and he returns to strictly using Dawn.  Now that would have been perfect for me. 

[lancerman]

The fight looked good. The cuts and edits of the scene made it look like he could plausibly take on those odds the way he did. Did they go overboard in making Dayne look superhuman? Yeah, whatever, he lives up to his rep. He actually looked like a guy who could kill you with his left hand and take a piss with the right.

Unless Dawn ends up being a major factor in the endgame, I don't really see a point in trying to work the scene around it. Nor do I care that each side had one less fighter. They got the point across. Dayne was a legend and easily dispatched an onslaught that would have overwhelmed lesser men. And they needed a cheap shot to win.

[D-Shiznit]

Also Ned killed Aruthur Dayne with Dawn. Kinda poetic, sword of the morning killed by the sword of the morning.

[Forlong the Fat]

1 hour ago, TwiceBorn said:

Martial arts are quite simple and limited by anatomy. To deliver a strike (a thrust or a swing) one has to rapidly twist the torso. In such motions the main power input comes from the two biggest and most powerful muscle groups: back and front upper body, while secondary biggest and strongest muscle group that is legs, helps to keep the balance. In comparison to those, the power input from the arms alone is irrelevant (though the arms and wrists are still important for griping and directing the blade). The torque generated by the upper body is more than enough to break through a simple block (even double arm!) least the opponent "puts a whole body" into it (that is twists himself) or cunningly redirects the hit.

 

 

It is quite obvious that twisting can be done only one way at a time, after which you either follow through with a spinning/tripping movement or recover to the neutral position. The latter takes too much time and so 99% cases the fighter will immediately twist back at full-speed, delivering another blow/parry or use the momentum to avoid the swift counter.

 

The dual wielding idiot can either swing his two swords in unison, chopping in most crude manner and leaving his other side open or deliver weak, uncoordinated arm strikes and parries. This includes ridiculous movements like spreading his arms apart or crossing the blades, both of which leaves him open for strikes he cannot defend or move away from. It does not matter how skillful or possibly ambidextrous he is. He has twice the mass to deal with, while having only half a grip. The momentum puts enormous strain on his arms and wrists. Not only he is incapable of any fencing, but also he gets tired more quickly, he is easier to disarm, he is more likely to accidently drop his sword and his movements are slower.

 

Despite tight choreography the attacking party members were so much faster than Dayne, and Ned so much better a fighter, that additional dialogue was needed to explain that we did not saw what we clearly saw. That alone is enough.

 

The truth about fighting is that it is much more about distance and speed than fancy moves, the exchanges are short and difficult to spot by a bystander unless slow-mo is used. So they invent ballets to entertain us and sooner or later they get overboard. Dual wielding Jaime was enough this time they have crossed the line with swapping Dawn with Scissor Sisters.

By this logic fighting with a shield is also a horrible mistake. He has more than twice the mass to deal with and only half a grip. 

[robasp2]

Either they dhow "Dawn" and give a stupid choreography

Or

They show dual weilding and portray Dayne's "superhuman" nature.

 

Of the two choices, they picked the best one.

If you see the stunts in slow mo, you have many people trying to kill Dayne. He effectively uses the second sword to back any attacks from behind and the side.

Now imagine he had a huge greatsword in his hand. They swing slower but have range. If the people behind him make a quick move they can kill him just like Howland. But with a sword quickly swinging behind him, they couldnt do that.

For me Dayne the legendary fighter was MUCH more important than Dawn...

Kudos D&D and stunt team on that.

[Smoke317]

40 minutes ago, robasp2 said:

Either they dhow "Dawn" and give a stupid choreography

Or

They show dual weilding and portray Dayne's "superhuman" nature.

 

Of the two choices, they picked the best one.

If you see the stunts in slow mo, you have many people trying to kill Dayne. He effectively uses the second sword to back any attacks from behind and the side.

Now imagine he had a huge greatsword in his hand. They swing slower but have range. If the people behind him make a quick move they can kill him just like Howland. But with a sword quickly swinging behind him, they couldnt do that.

For me Dayne the legendary fighter was MUCH more important than Dawn...

Kudos D&D and stunt team on that.

I think there was a 3rd choice. Show Dawn and let Dayne kill a man and take his sword to dual wield against the difficult odds after Whent is killed. Then once it's him & Ned, go back to just Dawn for the grand finale. This way you get the best of both worlds. Dawn is given its due as a legendary sword out front and center and Dayne is shown as the badass who could kill a handful of men with his left while taking a piss with his right...

[Corvinus85]

5 hours ago, HellasLEAF said:

That was a fantastic sword fight.  Believable in every way.  Very well done.  

And I really liked how it showed how stories are twisted and told by the victor.  GRR at his best there. 

"The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star. They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed."  Bran remembering his father talking about Dayne.

That is GRRM. What you saw here was more D&D crap.

[Corvinus85]

46 minutes ago, robasp2 said:

Either they dhow "Dawn" and give a stupid choreography

Or

They show dual weilding and portray Dayne's "superhuman" nature.

 

Of the two choices, they picked the best one.

If you see the stunts in slow mo, you have many people trying to kill Dayne. He effectively uses the second sword to back any attacks from behind and the side.

Now imagine he had a huge greatsword in his hand. They swing slower but have range. If the people behind him make a quick move they can kill him just like Howland. But with a sword quickly swinging behind him, they couldnt do that.

For me Dayne the legendary fighter was MUCH more important than Dawn...

Kudos D&D and stunt team on that.

Or the more realistic fight could have been for there to be 3 knights against Ned and his men, and have the other two do some killing, too, before they go down. They still could have had Dayne kill at least 2 on his own, and then fight Ned. And better armor for the knights would have made it more realistic. Reed managed to push a knife straight through him. Was he wearing paper? 

[RoamingRonin]

5 hours ago, Faint said:

Actually, I am pretty sure that Ned did not use that sword for combat and that it was purely ceremonial and for use in beheadings and such. It was much too big and cumbersome to wield in combat. There were several allusions to this if I am not mistaken. 

I used to think this as well but apparently it's not true. See this: https://49.media.tumblr.com/042a2d5c85843b4b7c3040fc45540f90/tumblr_o47hqvAleG1rbgia9o1_500.gif

It seems it was indeed possible for Ned to wield Ice in combat especially since Valyrian steel is lighter than common steel.

[Apple the Great]

6 minutes ago, RoamingRonin said:

I used to think this as well but apparently it's not true. See this: https://49.media.tumblr.com/042a2d5c85843b4b7c3040fc45540f90/tumblr_o47hqvAleG1rbgia9o1_500.gif

It seems it was indeed possible for Ned to wield Ice in combat especially since Valyrian steel sword is lighter than common steel.

I saw the actual video for that a few weeks ago.

Anyway, clearly, given he can use it with one hand I'm sure Ned could have.

[RedShirt47]

I really enjoyed that fight scene. I don't care about pedantic levels of realism from a tv show. I don't care if dual wielding didn't really happen on medieval battlefields, it looked cool on tv and that is the main priority of a tv show.

They learned from the mess of the Sand Snakes fight last season, that looked horrible. It was slow and clunky and didn't really help the already bad storyline in Dorne.

This scene looked good and also helped with the story. It may have needed a little exposition from Bran but that was ok, it didn't really overpower the scene. Unlike the exposition in the Sand Snakes introduction last season which was also clunky and brick-like.

There was no need to add Dawn, that would just need more exposition which would mean little to the story in any case and would lead to questions like what happened to this mega sword which would take up more screen time to resolve.

This scene did a great job. It entertained, it informed, it was fairly short and concise. Great television.

[Barrystan the Bald]

9 hours ago, lancerman said:

 He actually looked like a guy who could kill you with his left hand and take a piss with the right.

That line from the book is surely evidence of Dayne dual wielding is it not? 

[Fearodh]

I liked the scene. Don't know why they cut out the third Kings guard (no money for another actor??), but the choreo was solid and enjoyable.