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Are the Umbers up to something?


The Old Tongue

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5 minutes ago, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

If you're not confusing the show for the books, then why do you keep insisting interpreting the show like you would the books.  The books are written for those willing to sift through with a fine toothed comb to get at subtleties underneath the surface.

Well, let's see, perhaps because the show is based on the books. Obviously the show is a paraphrased version of the books but if we're talking about fitting ends for the bad guys what better end for a Bolton then to have one's bannermen betray you in Red Wedding fashion? There's still plenty of intrigue to ponder in the show where hints are peppered along the way. What's Littlefinger's game? Who is the Harpy? etc.

Not sure why it's so easy to dismiss something as familiar as "things aren't what they appear" in a show centered around political deception. This show has certainly jaded some readers.

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Just thinking about the Umber scene.

Convinced now that Little Jon Umber, is pulling fast one on Ramsey. Why? Because as the new Lord of Winterfell Ramsey is Umber's liege Lord but Umber pointedly refuses to kiss his hand, kneel or swear allegiance to him instead, he says his father was a "Cunt" and points out that Ramsey killed him.

The reason is that Umber is setting up Ramsey's death and he doesn't want to be called an oathbreaker, he can quite reasonably say that he pledged no troth to Ramsey before killing him rather he insulted his father and so this was not treachery betrayal or oathbreaking simply a settling of scores.

One of the last things we heard Rickon tell Bran before their separation was "I already know how to swing a sword!"

Osha is a spearwife in the Ygritte mode, we already seen her deceive Theon quite effectively, it would be nicely satisfying if her next victim were Ramsey.

Ramsey's done for, and as Roose told him will end up being fed to the pigs.

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33 minutes ago, The Old Tongue said:

Well, let's see, perhaps because the show is based on the books. Obviously the show is a paraphrased version of the books but if we're talking about fitting ends for the bad guys what better end for a Bolton then to have one's bannermen betray you in Red Wedding fashion? There's still plenty of intrigue to ponder in the show where hints are peppered along the way. What's Littlefinger's game? Who is the Harpy? etc.

Not sure why it's so easy to dismiss something as familiar as "things aren't what they appear" in a show centered around political deception. This show has certainly jaded some readers.

The show is the books with all the intrigue, subtly and mystery removed. That has always been the case.  Things are always what they appear on the show.

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52 minutes ago, The 999th Sword of Braavos said:

maybe the Umbers are playing the role of the manderlys this season. GRRM said manderlys would not be in the show in his post explaining TWOW delay. 

He didn't say they'd never be in it, he just used them as one of the many examples of characters who hadnt shown up yet. Theyve also mentioned the Manderlys twice now.

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4 hours ago, The Old Tongue said:

 

Conveniently, when Sansa is lost another Stark is brought to Winterfell. Certain Northern lords may have had plans that were hinged on Sansa's presence at Winterfell. Having the Stark heir/heiress within the walls of the castle could help lords to convince others to zero in on WF in order to "save the princess". Unfortunately for Rickon, Sansa has vacated her home and perhaps another Stark is required to galvanize any would-be avengers.

"There must always be a Stark in Winterfel".

 

Honestly, I think the theory adds up quite nicely. I wouldn't be so quick as to discard it.

The Umbers are supposed to be one of the most loyal houses in the North. Them replacing the Manderlys in the books is not SUCH a bad idea.

The Smaljon doesn't pledge fealty. He doesn't kneel. He doesn't recognize Ramsay as Warden. And he does the ONE thing that might lead Jon Snow with an army to Winterfell.

And the wolf head does seem kinda small. Like a regular wolf head. Remember Grey Wind's head? It was HUGE. We've been seeing Ghost a lot, and his head is definitely larger than that. Remember all direwolves have the same age.

Another thing: the Greatjon was at the Red Wedding, which was organized by BOLTON. Really, I wouldn't be surprised if he was pissed about this detail. Did the Greatjon die there in the series? I don't remember. Oh, and wasn't he the first to proclaim Robb King in the North? Wasn't he the most faithful? We've seen the love between northern fathers and their sons in other examples, like Stark, Karstark and Mormont. It's really important to them.

What happened with "The North remembers"? Maybe this is the North awakening we've been waiting for like 18 seasons.

A weak point in the theory: why not bring a fake Rickon as well? I answer to myself there must still be people from Winterfell that can recognize him (as we saw with Sansa). Or, you know, MORE sloppy writing.

 

Again, maybe this is all torture porn yet again and I may be overestimating what the show has become. Maybe it's just sloppy writing (again). Maybe I'm putting too much faith in the show. But I'd still think about it, twice, before being so sure.

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If the Umbers were planning a double cross of the Boltons, why on earth would they give him a fake shaggy dog head and the real Rickon Stark?  Ramsey could snick his head off quick as that and their "double cross" is done.

The Small Jon is playing for his own survival at this point.  He is unaware of the threat from beyond the wall.  House Stark is finished.  House Bolton is the new power in the north and he has what he sees as hostile enemies on his doorstep.  If he was planning to take down house Bolton and restore house Stark, his plan wouldn't go:

 

Step 1: Deliver the true heir to Winterfell to Ramsay Bolton.

Step 2: ?

 

Also, how sure are we really about the motivations of House Umber in the books?  We know that the Carstarks are a fifth column in Stannis army, but do we really know what the Umbers are up to?

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I hope they are up to something; otherwise, it's an enormous gamble to give Rickon to Ramsay. The Umbers have guessed Ramsay killed his father cause he's a dick, but do they also know Sansa is missing? I'm gonna guess so because otherwise, they wouldn't have turned over Rickon. Also there was something in the way Osha looked at Rickon when they brought Shaggydog's (please, don't let it be) head in that made me wonder if it wasn't the same direwolf. Almost as if Rickon had to be coaxed in his reaction.

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33 minutes ago, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

The show is the books with all the intrigue, subtly and mystery removed. That has always been the case.  Things are always what they appear on the show.

Tell that to Rob and Cat.

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19 minutes ago, Sand11751 said:

I hope they are up to something; otherwise, it's an enormous gamble to give Rickon to Ramsay. The Umbers have guessed Ramsay killed his father cause he's a dick, but do they also know Sansa is missing? I'm gonna guess so because otherwise, they wouldn't have turned over Rickon. Also there was something in the way Osha looked at Rickon when they brought Shaggydog's (please, don't let it be) head in that made me wonder if it wasn't the same direwolf. Almost as if Rickon had to be coaxed in his reaction.

Up to what?  They just delivered Rickon to Ramsay Bolton, who they know murdered his father, mother and infant half brother.  They would have to be the stupidest people in Westeros to give Rickon to Ramsay if they are secretly Stark loyalists.  Not that they couldn't turn out to be the stupidest people in Westeros...but it makes even less sense than Sansa marrying Ramsay for revenge.

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4 hours ago, White Harbors Wrath said:

Looking for conspiracies where there isn't one. Umbers are with the Boltons out of necessity. An enemy of my enemy is my friend. I've discussed it elsewhere so I'm not going to get into it again and beat a dead horse. It's Rickon, that was Shaggy and this is textbook D&D. Textbook.

I feel like they sweet summer childed me...:bawl:

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37 minutes ago, Warsaw said:

"There must always be a Stark in Winterfel".

 

Honestly, I think the theory adds up quite nicely. I wouldn't be so quick as to discard it.

The Umbers are supposed to be one of the most loyal houses in the North. Them replacing the Manderlys in the books is not SUCH a bad idea.

The Smaljon doesn't pledge fealty. He doesn't kneel. He doesn't recognize Ramsay as Warden. And he does the ONE thing that might lead Jon Snow with an army to Winterfell.

And the wolf head does seem kinda small. Like a regular wolf head. Remember Grey Wind's head? It was HUGE. We've been seeing Ghost a lot, and his head is definitely larger than that. Remember all direwolves have the same age.

Another thing: the Greatjon was at the Red Wedding, which was organized by BOLTON. Really, I wouldn't be surprised if he was pissed about this detail. Did the Greatjon die there in the series? I don't remember. Oh, and wasn't he the first to proclaim Robb King in the North? Wasn't he the most faithful? We've seen the love between northern fathers and their sons in other examples, like Stark, Karstark and Mormont. It's really important to them.

What happened with "The North remembers"? Maybe this is the North awakening we've been waiting for like 18 seasons.

A weak point in the theory: why not bring a fake Rickon as well? I answer to myself there must still be people from Winterfell that can recognize him (as we saw with Sansa). Or, you know, MORE sloppy writing.

 

Again, maybe this is all torture porn yet again and I may be overestimating what the show has become. Maybe it's just sloppy writing (again). Maybe I'm putting too much faith in the show. But I'd still think about it, twice, before being so sure.

Pretty much exactly what I believe.  (Except I am pretty sure that Greatjon disappeared from the TV show after season 2 and was not mentioned again until Smalljon said he was dead in this episode. He wasn't shown at the Red Wedding.)

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I dont think the Umbers would be stupid enough to leave Rickon with Ramsay.

Sansa had the illusion of safety untill the point she gave birth to an heir.

Rickon, unless hes undergone some changes with puberty, has no use, he has the Karstarks and the show set up a few other Northern Houses. The Umbers know that Ramsay killed Roose so why would they risk Rickon in the grasp of this madman?

It just makes no sense to me other than the Umbers need allies. There is absolutely nothing stopping Ramsay killing Rickon.

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28 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Up to what?  They just delivered Rickon to Ramsay Bolton, who they know murdered his father, mother and infant half brother.  They would have to be the stupidest people in Westeros to give Rickon to Ramsay if they are secretly Stark loyalists.  Not that they couldn't turn out to be the stupidest people in Westeros...but it makes even less sense than Sansa marrying Ramsay for revenge.

 

I'm guessing you missed the "enormous gamble" part. Sure, the Umbers could suddenly be the stupidest people in Westeros; the showrunners could have set up that scenario and suddenly made the Umbers less loyal to the Starks, despite the Greatjon having been the first to acknowledge Robb as king in the north. Hell, Melisandre and Davos are best friends despite Shireen and Stannis' deaths, so why not? 

When LF brought Sansa to Ramsay for marriage, I assumed LF was playing another version of the long game, cause no way in hell did he not know the full extent of Ramsay's hobbies. Why is it so implausible that the Umbers are playing a game, too? It's utterly ridiculous that they would give up Rickon just so Ramsay can help them fight Jon Snow and the wildlings; is the same guy spying on Winterfell and Castle Black to keep the Umbers in the know? If I were the Smalljon, I'm keeping Rickon Stark no matter what, unless I have a really compelling, smart reason to do otherwise. A couple of wildlings and the LC of the NW wouldn't make me give up my best pawn.

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6 minutes ago, Sand11751 said:

I'm guessing you missed the "enormous gamble" part. Sure, the Umbers could suddenly be the stupidest people in Westeros; the showrunners could have set up that scenario and suddenly made the Umbers less loyal to the Starks, despite the Greatjon having been the first to acknowledge Robb as king in the north. Hell, Melisandre and Davos are best friends despite Shireen and Stannis' deaths, so why not? 

When LF brought Sansa to Ramsay for marriage, I assumed LF was playing another version of the long game, cause no way in hell did he not know the full extent of Ramsay's hobbies. Why is it so implausible that the Umbers are playing a game, too? It's utterly ridiculous that they would give up Rickon just so Ramsay can help them fight Jon Snow and the wildlings; is the same guy spying on Winterfell and Castle Black to keep the Umbers in the know? If I were the Smalljon, I'm keeping Rickon Stark no matter what, unless I have a really compelling, smart reason to do otherwise. A couple of wildlings and the LC of the NW wouldn't make me give up my best pawn.

The show has said that LF in the show did not know about Ramsay, so that is wrong.

Why gamble?  LOL.  Ramsay needs support, why give him a Stark?  What are you getting for it in return?  Nothing.  Same thing LF got for Sansa.  

What game?  Again, if their game is to give over the Stark heir to Ramsay when they are 'really' his allies then they are the stupidest people in Westeros, because that isn't a gamble it's suicidal...and the show can't say that they don't know about Ramsay since Bolton already indicated he DOES know.

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1 hour ago, Clariana said:

Just thinking about the Umber scene.

Convinced now that Little Jon Umber, is pulling fast one on Ramsey. Why? Because as the new Lord of Winterfell Ramsey is Umber's liege Lord but Umber pointedly refuses to kiss his hand, kneel or swear allegiance to him instead, he says his father was a "Cunt" and points out that Ramsey killed him.

The reason is that Umber is setting up Ramsey's death and he doesn't want to be called an oathbreaker, he can quite reasonably say that he pledged no troth to Ramsey before killing him rather he insulted his father and so this was not treachery betrayal or oathbreaking simply a settling of scores.

One of the last things we heard Rickon tell Bran before their separation was "I already know how to swing a sword!"

Osha is a spearwife in the Ygritte mode, we already seen her deceive Theon quite effectively, it would be nicely satisfying if her next victim were Ramsey.

Ramsey's done for, and as Roose told him will end up being fed to the pigs.

 

1 hour ago, Warsaw said:

"There must always be a Stark in Winterfel".

 

Honestly, I think the theory adds up quite nicely. I wouldn't be so quick as to discard it.

The Umbers are supposed to be one of the most loyal houses in the North. Them replacing the Manderlys in the books is not SUCH a bad idea.

The Smaljon doesn't pledge fealty. He doesn't kneel. He doesn't recognize Ramsay as Warden. And he does the ONE thing that might lead Jon Snow with an army to Winterfell.

And the wolf head does seem kinda small. Like a regular wolf head. Remember Grey Wind's head? It was HUGE. We've been seeing Ghost a lot, and his head is definitely larger than that. Remember all direwolves have the same age.

Another thing: the Greatjon was at the Red Wedding, which was organized by BOLTON. Really, I wouldn't be surprised if he was pissed about this detail. Did the Greatjon die there in the series? I don't remember. Oh, and wasn't he the first to proclaim Robb King in the North? Wasn't he the most faithful? We've seen the love between northern fathers and their sons in other examples, like Stark, Karstark and Mormont. It's really important to them.

What happened with "The North remembers"? Maybe this is the North awakening we've been waiting for like 18 seasons.

A weak point in the theory: why not bring a fake Rickon as well? I answer to myself there must still be people from Winterfell that can recognize him (as we saw with Sansa). Or, you know, MORE sloppy writing.

 

Again, maybe this is all torture porn yet again and I may be overestimating what the show has become. Maybe it's just sloppy writing (again). Maybe I'm putting too much faith in the show. But I'd still think about it, twice, before being so sure.

I agree. Maybe it's wishful thinking, but I feel the North WILL Remember, and they have a plan up their sleeve. They know it's risky to deliver Rickon, but they need to be on the inside of Winterfell to execute a Bolton overthrow. Ramsey killing Roose more plausibly allows for this -- Roose was too slick to allow such subterfuge; Ramsey, however, is egotistical enough to miss the Northern Lords' signs of disloyalty.

That was definitely the real Rickon. It was probably the real Shaggydog's head too, but I'm hoping maybe a fake. I hate that all the direwolves are being killed. 

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21 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

The show has said that LF in the show did not know about Ramsay, so that is wrong.

Why gamble?  LOL.  Ramsay needs support, why give him a Stark?  What are you getting for it in return?  Nothing.  Same thing LF got for Sansa.  

What game?  Again, if their game is to give over the Stark heir to Ramsay when they are 'really' his allies then they are the stupidest people in Westeros, because that isn't a gamble it's suicidal...and the show can't say that they don't know about Ramsay since Bolton already indicated he DOES know.

 
 

Someone actually said that LF suddenly became the stupidest man in Westeros for a couple of episodes? Wow, I guess I am expecting more consistency of the characters than can be had. Christ, D&D - do they just forget shit from episode to episode? Gods, Cogman gave that answer. Tells me all I need to know.

So what's your theory of why the Umbers would give up Rickon?

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