The Old Tongue Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 I think there's a bit of deception going on here with the Umbers. Aside from Shaggy Dog's head a lot of things in this scene don't add up. First and foremost; the Boltons are heavily responsible for the imprisonment/death of the GreatJon. Though the mastermind, Roose, is now gone I can't see House Umber honoring an heir whose claim results from a coup in which their Lord was killed. SmallJon accuses Ramsay of killing Roose. Perhaps the only crime more severe in the eyes of Northmen than the breaking of Guest Right is Kinslaying, and the Umbers know Ramsay did it. Conveniently, when Sansa is lost another Stark is brought to Winterfell. Certain Northern lords may have had plans that were hinged on Sansa's presence at Winterfell. Having the Stark heir/heiress within the walls of the castle could help lords to convince others to zero in on WF in order to "save the princess". Unfortunately for Rickon, Sansa has vacated her home and perhaps another Stark is required to galvanize any would-be avengers. SmallJon complains about the wildlings but behaves more like one than a Lord. The wildling threat is a convenient excuse, and perhaps warrants concern, though how many have actually left the Wall? And their new freedom comes at the price of abandoning their reaving ways and obeying the laws of the land. Have they reverted this quickly or could the wildlings be informing the Umbers of the going-ons of the Wall and their Lord Commander. Also, SmallJon refuses to kneel! How much more wildling can you get? Perhaps also not kneeling absolves him of any future shifts in allegiance. Something akin to refusing bread and salt in a lords hall with hopes to kill that lord. No ancient law has been broken. Most likely Rickon will be used to draw Jon's forces towards Winterfell: a more beneficial scenario for Ramsay than sending an army to storm Castle Black for Sansa. Rickon will most likely be relatively safe (as his well-being is currently valuable) at least until Ramsay's victory. Spoiler Ultimately though, we might see Lords rally behind Ramsay with treacherous intent, gaining entry to Winterfell with their armies under false flag, and undo the Bolton line. But, alas, that doesn't explain the wolf's head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Harbors Wrath Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 Looking for conspiracies where there isn't one. Umbers are with the Boltons out of necessity. An enemy of my enemy is my friend. I've discussed it elsewhere so I'm not going to get into it again and beat a dead horse. It's Rickon, that was Shaggy and this is textbook D&D. Textbook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bran Snow Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 The Greatjon wasn't at the Red Wedding and was said to be alive and free by the show runs then. So how he died off season wasn't told. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Scabbard Of the Morning Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 26 minutes ago, White Harbors Wrath said: Looking for conspiracies where there isn't one. Umbers are with the Boltons out of necessity. An enemy of my enemy is my friend. I've discussed it elsewhere so I'm not going to get into it again and beat a dead horse. It's Rickon, that was Shaggy and this is textbook D&D. Textbook. Exactly, people keep confusing the books for the show. In the books GRRM leaves carefully placed clues that if you pay attention points to things below the surface that might not be what they appear on the surface. In the show everything is in your face, there are no subtle clues, everything is hit you over the face obvious, even the clues with twists are dropped like anvils, so they are impossible to miss. People need to wake up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Old Tongue Posted May 9, 2016 Author Share Posted May 9, 2016 how long have the Umbers had Rickon then? It's been at least a year since we've last seen him at the Gift, near the Last Hearth. I think the fact that we'll meet the Manderlys this season suggests there will be a conspiracy. Why not start the game before we meet the major player? I'll admit, after seeing the Dorne scenes it's obvious that D&D can let some bad writing slip through. I'm just hoping that the Northen conflict isn't so black and white. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErasmusF Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 3 minutes ago, The Scabbard Of the Morning said: Exactly, people keep confusing the books for the show. In the books GRRM leaves carefully placed clues that if you pay attention points to things below the surface that might not be what they appear on the surface. In the show everything is in your face, there are no subtle clues, everything is hit you over the face obvious, even the clues with twists are dropped like anvils, so they are impossible to miss. People need to wake up. The showruners are big on the bad guys getting fitting ends. Stannis was killed by Briene - not going to happen in the books. Bolton was killed the same way Robb was killed. Robert Strong is going down in Cleganebowl. Ramsay will be stabbed in the back on the battlefield by the GNC. The Northern lords will turn on the Bolton forces. Then they will walk right back into Winterfell under his banners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordstewie Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 I'm not sure it's Rickon, Osha in the scene looks at him strangely, smaljohn does not kneel, then the wolf head at first glance does not seem shaggydog. I think it can be similar to the false arya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Scabbard Of the Morning Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 58 minutes ago, ErasmusF said: The showruners are big on the bad guys getting fitting ends. Stannis was killed by Briene - not going to happen in the books. Bolton was killed the same way Robb was killed. Robert Strong is going down in Cleganebowl. Ramsay will be stabbed in the back on the battlefield by the GNC. The Northern lords will turn on the Bolton forces. Then they will walk right back into Winterfell under his banners. Ramsay will get killed by Jon Snow in a cliched heroic showdown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aniel Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 It's definitely Rickon. The actor has grown up quite a bit since we last saw him, but it's definitely him. I'd like to hope that the Umbers have something up their sleeve, but I think the Manderlys will be the ones for that, while the Mormonts are still loyal to the Starks. I can see the Smalljon keeping his options "open" by giving Ramsay Rickon but refusing to kneel, rather than letting Ramsay besiege them or something and killing every Umber he gets his hands on, but I think it's a bit too early to make any definitive statements about it. I think the Umbers are probably only loyal to the Boltons for practical reasons (like the survival of their House). Did they have to give up Rickon for it? We'll just have to wait and see. We can only hope Rickon gets through it unscathed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tall Tyrion Lannister! Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 1 hour ago, ErasmusF said: The showruners are big on the bad guys getting fitting ends. Stannis was killed by Briene - not going to happen in the books. Bolton was killed the same way Robb was killed. Robert Strong is going down in Cleganebowl. Ramsay will be stabbed in the back on the battlefield by the GNC. The Northern lords will turn on the Bolton forces. Then they will walk right back into Winterfell under his banners. it's certainly Rickon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Harbors Wrath Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 30 minutes ago, lordstewie said: I'm not sure it's Rickon, Osha in the scene looks at him strangely, smaljohn does not kneel, then the wolf head at first glance does not seem shaggydog. I think it can be similar to the false arya It's literally the same exact actor...is he playing a fake version of himself? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philpenn Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 Is anyone doubting that was Rickon? Doubts are whether the head was Shaggy's or a fake, and if the Umbers are planning something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tall Tyrion Lannister! Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 10 minutes ago, White Harbors Wrath said: It's literally the same exact actor...is he playing a fake version of himself? It's a random dude who is glamoured into looking like Rickon. The Umbar's secretly found Mel's other necklace that's been missing until now. Yeah it's the same actor, he looks just like he did in that movie he was in with The Rock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donaldys I Trumpagar Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 20 minutes ago, The Scabbard Of the Morning said: Ramsay will get killed by Jon Snow in a cliched heroic showdown. I don't think there's any other way. After 4 seasons of seeing the psychotic that is Ramsay maim, torture, & murder at leisure (including Jon's sister), dying in his bed of the flu would seem terribly anticlimactic, to say the least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Old Tongue Posted May 9, 2016 Author Share Posted May 9, 2016 1 hour ago, The Scabbard Of the Morning said: Exactly, people keep confusing the books for the show. In the books GRRM leaves carefully placed clues that if you pay attention points to things below the surface that might not be what they appear on the surface. In the show everything is in your face, there are no subtle clues, everything is hit you over the face obvious, even the clues with twists are dropped like anvils, so they are impossible to miss. People need to wake up. No one's confusing the book with the show here. I think we're all pretty aware of their differences by now. I didn't even mention the books in my initial post. The fact is that there HAS been a conspiracy set up since season 5. The whole "North Remembers" thing suggested that there are people who are looking out for the Starks. Now, is feeding Rickon to Ramsay in his best interest? Certainly not. But do the other Northernes even know exactly how cruel Ramsay is? Attendance at the Winterfell wedding was, from a viewer standpoint, underwhelmingly low. Chalk it up to budget but in any case: most of the people that know how malicious Ramsay is aren't around to tell anyone. Then again, this arc could just be the result of rushed plot development. I was just speculating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Masha Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 We had gone down the same road in season 5 before with Sansa. Dark Sansa did NOT control Ramsey, she did NOT went on murdering rampage a la LS, and in fact it all gone down the exact same storyline from the books for Jayne Poole. Umbers do not have a plot to double-cross Ramsey, they crossed over to his side. This is Shaggydog's head, not fake wolf's. This is exactly what it looks like, Ramsey got another Stark to torment perhaps as a fodder for his "pink letter" to Jon. Hoping otherwise it just reading yourself for another crushing disappointment when Ramsey kills Rickon, and Umbers make some kind of dry comment about it instead of being shocked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Scabbard Of the Morning Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 If 7 minutes ago, The Old Tongue said: No one's confusing the book with the show here. I think we're all pretty aware of their differences by now. I didn't even mention the books in my initial post. The fact is that there HAS been a conspiracy set up since season 5. The whole "North Remembers" thing suggested that there are people who are looking out for the Starks. Now, is feeding Rickon to Ramsay in his best interest? Certainly not. But do the other Northernes even know exactly how cruel Ramsay is? Attendance at the Winterfell wedding was, from a viewer standpoint, underwhelmingly low. Chalk it up to budget but in any case: most of the people that know how malicious Ramsay is aren't around to tell anyone. Then again, this arc could just be the result of rushed plot development. I was just speculating. If you're not confusing the show for the books, then why do you keep insisting interpreting the show like you would the books. The books are written for those willing to sift through with a fine toothed comb to get at subtleties underneath the surface. The show is not. The show is not subtle about anything, there no is conspiracy underneath the surface on the show unless they hit you over the head with a "THERE IS A CONSPIRACY HERE, LOOK HERE" with flashing neon signs. Or they just pull something completely out of the air with no foreshadowing whatsoever so they can "shock" you. The finely laid trail of clues that leads you to a destination thing does not exist on the show, and has never existed on the show, and it won't start here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The 999th Sword of Braavos Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 maybe the Umbers are playing the role of the manderlys this season. GRRM said manderlys would not be in the show in his post explaining TWOW delay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Scabbard Of the Morning Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 35 minutes ago, Donaldys I Trumpagar said: I don't think there's any other way. After 4 seasons of seeing the psychotic that is Ramsay maim, torture, & murder at leisure (including Jon's sister), dying in his bed of the flu would seem terribly anticlimactic, to say the least. Whether you like it or not is a matter of taste, but I'll put down cold hard cash on no Umber betrayal of Ramsay, it's just not how this show rolls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 1 hour ago, The Scabbard Of the Morning said: Ramsay will get killed by Jon Snow in a cliched heroic showdown. Absofuckinglutely. By the time GOT is over there won't be a single cliche or trope that they haven't used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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