Why the surprise? (SPOILERS)

[MrsStocksey]

So are people suggesting that Ned couldn't have changed in the 16 years since the TOJ, that maybe as a younger man he made a few mistakes and wasn't always as honorable as he'd like?? Perhaps he didn't tell the full story when he got back to Winterfell because he was ashamed of it?  It's not character assassination, just adding different layers to his character.

Anyway, I didn't see the scene as a dirty move, or a craven move, mercy killing possibly but more likely heat of the battle 'kill or be killed' mentality, but I guess that is personal interpretation.

Also, doesn't Bran get most of his stories from old Nan, it's not unreasonable to assume that she loved to tell him the story of his dad killing the greatest sword man that ever lived....she was well known to exaggerate and make up stories for him, no one said Ned told the story.

[Dragon in the North]

50 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

 

The showrunners have said blatantly what the scene represents: the puncturing of the mythology of Ned Stark. 

First of all, I don't really care what people involved with the show say. Art is open to interpretation. Second, I don't know what that has anything to do with what I said.

[Cas Stark]

10 minutes ago, Dragon in the North said:

First of all, I don't really care what people involved with the show say. Art is open to interpretation. Second, I don't know what that has anything to do with what I said.

Usually the writer's interpretation is considered definitive, canon, if the writer says I meant X, then the answer is X.  So, if the people who wrote the scene say it shows Ned abandoning his honor and that it punctures his mythology...then that was the purpose of the scene.  Refusing to see it that way is to be being obstinate, because the writers have said exactly what they meant to portray.

I already explained multiple times how to me its silly to think Bran is hearing something 1000 without his father condoning the version, and the implication is that he heard it from his father.

[Dragon in the North]

7 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I already explained multiple times how to me its silly to think Bran is hearing something 1000 without his father condoning the version, and the implication is that he heard it from his father.

Arthur Dayne was a legend, Word of his death wouldn't have been able to be kept quiet, and many Stark soldiers would have come up with their own version of how their lord bested the Sword of the Morning. Even if Eddard tried to keep a lid on things, whispers would have spread around Winterfell.

[MrsStocksey]

5 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Usually the writer's interpretation is considered definitive, canon, if the writer says I meant X, then the answer is X.  So, if the people who wrote the scene say it shows Ned abandoning his honor and that it punctures his mythology...then that was the purpose of the scene.  Refusing to see it that way is to be being obstinate, because the writers have said exactly what they meant to portray.

I already explained multiple times how to me its silly to think Bran is hearing something 1000 without his father condoning the version, and the implication is that he heard it from his father.

I've just watched the inside episode, they also talk about Ned having already watched thousands die in the rebellion, that these are the last soldiers of the Mad Kinds rule and that he was willing to die for honour until he realised that he had to do what was right and much more important (save his sister, kill the final Mad Kings men) something more important than his honour.  

So yes the Mythology has changed, he was not a knight in shinning armour but it makes him more real as a character.

 

[ShadowKitteh]

5 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Usually the writer's interpretation is considered definitive, canon, if the writer says I meant X, then the answer is X.  So, if the people who wrote the scene say it shows Ned abandoning his honor and that it punctures his mythology...then that was the purpose of the scene.  Refusing to see it that way is to be being obstinate, because the writers have said exactly what they meant to portray.

I already explained multiple times how to me its silly to think Bran is hearing something 1000 without his father condoning the version, and the implication is that he heard it from his father.

I do not see the implication of which you speak.

You seem to be the only person who has the belief he heard it from Ned, every time he heard it. Where exactly and how is it implied? it might be possible if Ned is the only person who ever speaks to Bran, but the likely scenario is that Roderick, Nann, and other servants talked to Bran and his siblings a lot more than his parents did, as they were too busy running Winterfell.

For Bran to hear it "a thousand times" from Ned, would mean Ned only repeated that story to Bran and not much else. I don't see Ned even talking about it, since most of what happened that day he's been lying about to protect his family.

But if you want to die on the "Bran only heard the story embellished by Ned a thousand times" hill, that's your call.

As for Ned "condoning the version", do you go ask the parents of any child you ever speak to, if you can say the words you're about to say, so they can "condone" it? Do you think everyone at Winterfell asked Ned what they could say to Bran before they spoke to him? I just don't find that plausible.  

[Cas Stark]

8 minutes ago, ShadowKitteh said:

I do not see the implication of which you speak.

You seem to be the only person who has the belief he heard it from Ned, every time he heard it. Where exactly and how is it implied? it might be possible if Ned is the only person who ever speaks to Bran, but the likely scenario is that Roderick, Nann, and other servants talked to Bran and his siblings a lot more than his parents did, as they were too busy running Winterfell.

For Bran to hear it "a thousand times" from Ned, would mean Ned only repeated that story to Bran and not much else. I don't see Ned even talking about it, since most of what happened that day he's been lying about to protect his family.

But if you want to die on the "Bran only heard the story embellished by Ned a thousand times" hill, that's your call.

As for Ned "condoning the version", do you go ask the parents of any child you ever speak to, if you can say the words you're about to say, so they can "condone" it? Do you think everyone at Winterfell asked Ned what they could say to Bran before they spoke to him? I just don't find that plausible.  

I hate to bring up the book, but in the book Book Ned was able to quash all rumor mongering about Ashara Dayne as soon as he heard about it.  But, to be sure, young chinless show ned would probably never have that authority.  LOL.

[Ruhail]

 

2 hours ago, Dragon in the North said:

First of all, I don't really care what people involved with the show say. Art is open to interpretation. Second, I don't know what that has anything to do with what I said.

Wait the showrunner's stated intent is less valid because you prefer to change the meaning to your view, huh? 

[ShadowKitteh]

I just posted this on another thread, but it needs to be here too.

 

So...... just turned it on, again.  Because.... I'm a nerd.

There are THREE white cloaks on the ground at the ToJ. Two on a rock that Dayne and Hightower are walking away from, and one to the left of that rock on the ground.  

Whent has to be in the tower with Lyanna.

[Tooms]

20 hours ago, Xcorpyo001 said:

 

It was the producer’s idea to play it out like that. They wanted to make Ned look like a liar and a bragger, thus diminishing his image as an honorable man. I guess characters aren’t safe from D&D not even from beyond the grave.

 

Ugh, seriously ... The books have not yet revealed how the fight went down at ToJ so will you accuse GRRM of the same thing if and when the fight at ToJ in the books goes down in a similar way to the TV show? I mean for all we know GRRM told D&D that Ned defeated Arthur dishonorably when Reed stabs him in the back.

I have no issue with D&D bashing, hell they have done quite a few things worthy of some criticism, but if you're going to do it best do it for things we know they've changed.

[Mrslannistark]

I don't think it matters where Bran heard the story of his father's big win against Dayne. The point is, he grew up thinking he knew the truth, but he didn't. He believed Ned had the power to defeat Arthur Dayne and he believed he did it honorably because that's what we have all known of Ned. As soon as I saw Bran's reaction, I thought, wow, that's twice Ned has lied! But perhaps both times were to protect the reputations of others? Did he protect Howland Reed by hiding the HOW of the death of the greatest swordsman ever? Like he has protected WHO Jon Snow's parents are? The TRUTH, people! We think we know...

I am really disappointed D&D said the scene represents the puncturing of the mythology of Ned Stark. I really really really still want to believe he lived every aspect of his life honorably. I really thought he was putting the poor guy out of his misery with his final blow. He is not a punkass piece of shit at all! You might as well say Ned's a secret Targaryen and Jon Snow is the product of incest between Ned and Lyanna! 

ErasmusF, I agree with you.

Again, so many truths have yet to be revealed on this wild ride!

(btw this is my first post after trolling for a year)

[Dragon in the North]

3 hours ago, Ruhail said:

 

Wait the showrunner's stated intent is less valid because you prefer to change the meaning to your view, huh? 

It's not that it's invalid, it's just not important to me. I make my own interpretations based on what I see on the show. If my interpretation conflicts with their intent, it doesn't make it wrong, because art is open to interpretation.

[TheKitttenGuard]

1 hour ago, ShadowKitteh said:

I just posted this on another thread, but it needs to be here too.

 

So...... just turned it on, again.  Because.... I'm a nerd.

There are THREE white cloaks on the ground at the ToJ. Two on a rock that Dayne and Hightower are walking away from, and one to the left of that rock on the ground.  

Whent has to be in the tower with Lyanna.

Whent is the one with Dayne.

I thought it was Hightower as well  after Pycelle named dropped him.  Hightower apparantly will be inside the tower.

 

[watcher of the night]

8 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Usually the writer's interpretation is considered definitive, canon, if the writer says I meant X, then the answer is X.  So, if the people who wrote the scene say it shows Ned abandoning his honor and that it punctures his mythology...then that was the purpose of the scene.  Refusing to see it that way is to be being obstinate, because the writers have said exactly what they meant to portray.

I already explained multiple times how to me its silly to think Bran is hearing something 1000 without his father condoning the version, and the implication is that he heard it from his father.

You know there are good and bad writers ... khm ... also even in the writers interpretation Ned is not craven, etc. things you insist on. 

Why don't you just accept the fact that for the most of us the intent of the writers did not come through and most viewers interpret the scene as "war is war".

Last but not least, why are you so hellbent to drag Ned's honor into the mud? Don't you have better things to do than trolling the forums with this?

[messem]

9 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Usually the writer's interpretation is considered definitive, canon, if the writer says I meant X, then the answer is X.  So, if the people who wrote the scene say it shows Ned abandoning his honor and that it punctures his mythology...then that was the purpose of the scene.

I agree but you have an over-interpretation. Ned's honor was damaged because of the way Dayne was killed not of the way he represented it later on. 

[ma_liky]

I guess most are not parents. Your kids see you as a hero, cause you can do everything they can imagine. Even slay dragons ☺.

As for Bran, I think he never heard a story directly from Ned. He had heard from other people or even read it in some history book. And thought his father is the most amezing person in the world. Why would Ned go and kill his sons dreams. That would distroy Bran and his relationship with his father. And everything he knew about history. Ned wouldn't do that like no other parent would.

An as for Ned. He was just a young man. He didnt know what was he doing. He knew he can't beat Dayne. He knew what Reed did was not honorable. And he gave him quick death, didnt let him to suffer. It had to be done. People change during their life. We are not the same aa we were when we were in our 17s, 18s. So I think Ned grow up after the war. He become a better person. Tought his kids about honour become a man he was. 

I think this was to show that Ned is just human like everyone else. And prepare the story for what is to come. He did lie about Jon, but to what extent is to be seen. 

When children learn that you are not God they get little disappointment but they get over that when they realise you are human.

[The Hound 25]

Personally, I have absolutely no problem with the way the scene was portrayed. There was more important things at play than just a show down between Ned Stark and Ser Arthur Dayne. People saying that Ned is a coward and such sort probably expect this to be a fantasy fight without any real world aspects playing on the character's minds. That would be cool, no doubt, a showdown between two fierce swordsman, but we have to take into account the things that would have been on Ned's mind. 

This was a rescue mission that Ned was on to save his sister. Bare in mind how close the Stark family is. And then put yourself in Ned's shoes. His sister was in that tower and the King's Guard were standing between him and his sister. All he cared about was getting to Lyanna and was willing to do that by any mean's necessary. And every single one of us would have done the same. In that moment, in the heat of war, fuck honour, fuck Ser Arthur Dayne, fuck the King's Guard and fuck being noble. All that mattered was Lyanna.

I like the fact that it showed that Ned Stark, who held honour above every other personal characteristic, was willing to lay that aside in order to save his sister. And that, was probably the most honourable thing he could have done. 

As for the way Ser Arthur Dayne died, doesn't matter if Ned wanted to make sure AD was dead or whether it was a mercy killing, the important thing was that he was dead. Hell, if it was me I wouldn't mind if Goku flew in and Kamehameha'd AD's ass as long as it helped me get to my sister. 

So let's stop butchering Ned for doing what everyone else would have done and give the man some credit for doing what had to be done to get to Lyanna.

[dbunting]

14 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

1000 times, according to Bran, LOL, since the implication is absolutely that Ned is the one who has told the story, and as I said earlier in the thread, only 2 people could tell any version of the story, Ned and Howland Reed.  It stands to reason, then, that Bran's version of the story came from Ned Stark.  Lies and bragging.

And since show Ned also stabbed Dayne after he was stabbed from behind, it's another example of his lack of honor. Sorry, that wasn't the gift of mercy he was giving, that was a coward getting in a final shot.

C'mon man, snap to reality. We saw Ned on screen, did he once tell any story and embellish it on screen? The only time he ever told any type of story was when his King and bff asked him to, and even then he refused to give any details. It's like you are going to say the same things over and over to make it true when all of the actual evidence says otherwise.

[Xcorpyo001]

8 hours ago, Tooms said:

Ugh, seriously ... The books have not yet revealed how the fight went down at ToJ so will you accuse GRRM of the same thing if and when the fight at ToJ in the books goes down in a similar way to the TV show? I mean for all we know GRRM told D&D that Ned defeated Arthur dishonorably when Reed stabs him in the back.

I have no issue with D&D bashing, hell they have done quite a few things worthy of some criticism, but if you're going to do it best do it for things we know they've changed.

 

I wasn’t referring to how thing went down, the only difference in the books might be that Howland will probably use a spear.

I was talking about how Bran(and D&D in the after the show special) is taking this. It’s like Ned kept bragging about the awesome way he killed Dayne in an honorable one on one duel. Book Ned never bragged about that fact, he even downplayed a lot and said that without Reed, he would have died in that fight.

And Ned does the honorable thing by killing him. By the amount of blood pouring from his throat after he is stabbed by Howland, it’s clear that the dagger hit the spine and even the carotid artery, or at least a major artery in the neck. At that point, he was dead. Ned just gave him a quick death, without letting a man like Dayne suffer needlessly. You know, the thing everybody hates Arya for not doing to the Hound. Well, once we see the Hound is still alive she will be vindicated, but I don’t think Dayne has a miracle worker around to be saved as well.

Ned might have glossed over the fact that is was a brutal fight, but he was telling this story to a child. Yes, maybe Bran’s childish interpretation of this battle might have been changed by witnessing the event in all it’s brutality, but that doesn’t make Ned a lying piece of shit and a dishonorable man. At this point in the show, Varys is the most honorable man in existence. All he wants is the good of the realm. He abhors torture  and he even gives sweets to very talkative children   Raise him a freaking  statue and piss over Ned’s grave while you’re at it.

I don’t know where they are going with this line of character assassination while other characters are so whitewashed you can’t even look at them straight without covering your eyes in awe, but let’s wait and see.

[Neds Secret]

It was not a duel, or a trial by combat, the kings guard chose to try and kill Ned and his six men, not one at a time or one on one, it was war and in the end Neds Superior numbers just got his side home. Arthur Dayne was not stabbed in the back when he was not alert or fighting, he was in the middle of a sword fight to the death against whoever was there and they killed him because he could not cover every opponent. Ned (to me) did not lose any honor from this fight, even if the Showrunners intended him to, he and his men did what they had to do to survive and achieve the objective of his mission!