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Some thoughts about Dawn


Jewel

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This has probably been brought up before, and if it has, I'm sorry. I'm new here and just wanted to share my thoughts.

Dawn is an old and very unique sword, also only to be wielded by those deemed worthy. It apparently glows when wielded, and is made from a pale milk glass- something common in weapons wielded by the Others.

Could Dawn have been used during the War for the Dawn? Could it be Lightbringer? Or could it be some kind of special sword made by the Others?

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Hey there @Jewel and welcome to the forums!  Certainly, many people think Dawn maybe the original Lightbringer, and many people have written about & discussed that issue.  Technically, it is said to be "alive with light," which could imply a bit of shimmer of perhaps a feint glow. There is not anything about it's brightness changing when wielded - it's appearance seems to be constant, from what we are told. 

Some people have definitely noticed that the bones of the Others are said to be pale and shiny like milkglass, which sounds very like Dawn being described as "pale as milkglass and alive with light." I certainly don't think Martin does things like that by accident, so personally, I suspect there is indeed a connection.  I don't think Dawn is simply a sword of an Other, but I think there may be a common ingredient or magic at work in both. I actually have a blog and podcast called The Mythical Astronomy of Ice and Fire which discusses a lot of these things - Azor Ahai and Lightbringer in particular.  My friend @Voice has written a cool theory (pun intended) about how Dawn might in fact be the original Ice of House Stark.  I happen to agree that this is likely - that Dawn was made with ice magic and was originally known as Ice, the sword of the ancient Stark Kings of Winter. Definitely check out Voice's theory, because you're thinking along similar lines. :)

In my writings you'll find that I believe there were two swords associated with the idea of "Lightbringer," one of which was this icy white sword Dawn / original Ice, and the other was a black sword which was something like a predecessor to Valyrian steel. This would be the one Azor Ahai forged with blood sacrifice (killing his wife Nissa Nissa). There's a story about a black meteor in the Far East in the World of Ice and Fire having to do with some dude named the Bloodstone Emperor who supposedly caused the Long Night with his evil deeds of dark magic... and I think the Bloodstone Emperor and Azor Ahai were actually the same dude, and that Lightbringer was made from that black meteor. That sword would be bad news, Azor Ahai was a bad guy, so on and so forth. Anyway, you can check out those ideas on my page if you're curious. If you're thinking about meteors and swords and Lightbringer then you'll probably dig it. 

Cheers and great first post! :cheers:

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I like the idea of Dawn being Ice and to me it being in Starfall makes some sense. We know from a Cat POV that place names get bastardized over time (e.g. Karlon Stark's Hold becoming Karhold) so if Dawn is the original Ice then it would have been carried by the Lord Stark of the time, perhaps even Bran the Builder during his time in the South. If a shrine were to be built where that Lord Stark was to have been killed Ice would likely have been placed within what may well have been called the place where Stark Fell over time becoming Starfall. And the Mountain Dornish, of whom the Daynes are, are First Men descendants so it works that way to.

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1 hour ago, Jewel said:

This has probably been brought up before, and if it has, I'm sorry. I'm new here and just wanted to share my thoughts.

Dawn is an old and very unique sword, also only to be wielded by those deemed worthy. It apparently glows when wielded, and is made from a pale milk glass- something common in weapons wielded by the Others.

Could Dawn have been used during the War for the Dawn? Could it be Lightbringer? Or could it be some kind of special sword made by the Others?

 

Yup. I certainly think so. 

And thanks for the shoutout @lml! That thread is locked. :( 

Here's the new one :)

 

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2 minutes ago, Voice said:

 

Yup. I certainly think so. 

And thanks for the shoutout @lml! That thread is locked. :( 

Here's the new one :)

 

Yep it would have been criminal to respond to this and not mention your thread :) 

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3 minutes ago, LmL said:

Yep it would have been criminal to respond to this and not mention your thread :)

:cheers: cheers! It is certainly a topic I enjoy talking about. LOL

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7 minutes ago, Voice said:

:cheers: cheers! It is certainly a topic I enjoy talking about. LOL

I thought for one of her first posts, @Jewel knocked it out of the park here. :)

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Thanks for all the responses! Looking forward to read all about this. I've always thought Dawn was a weird sword, it being made from a meteor and all, but as @LmL said, GRRM never puts in things by accident, there's always more to it. I really like the idea of Dawn being the original Ice!

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19 hours ago, LmL said:

I thought for one of her first posts, @Jewel knocked it out of the park here. :)

Big time. :)

 

10 hours ago, Jewel said:

Thanks for all the responses! Looking forward to read all about this. I've always thought Dawn was a weird sword, it being made from a meteor and all, but as @LmL said, GRRM never puts in things by accident, there's always more to it. I really like the idea of Dawn being the original Ice!

Would love to hear your thought on the theory. It's one I quite like, and as time goes on it only seems reinforced by more recent developments.

Here's the thread: http://thelasthearth.com/thread/386/ice-dawn-updated?page=1

 

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19 hours ago, Jewel said:

Thanks for all the responses! Looking forward to read all about this. I've always thought Dawn was a weird sword, it being made from a meteor and all, but as @LmL said, GRRM never puts in things by accident, there's always more to it. I really like the idea of Dawn being the original Ice!

I still like to think as Dawn as the original Lightbringer. 

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On 5/10/2016 at 2:16 AM, Jewel said:

I really like the idea of Dawn being the original Ice!

 

16 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

I still like to think as Dawn as the original Lightbringer. 

 

 

Quoted you both because I believe these ideas are far from being mutually exclusive. To the contrary, I think the fact that House Stark lost the original Ice, and are the original "Kings of Winter," is a clue that their ancestral sword was used in conjunction with the Long Night.

Dawn, as the original (and only, in my opinion) Lightbringer makes a lot of sense. But then, we are left at wondering why a Sword brought light to the world. I think it all fits together if the original Ice was part of the darkness known as the Long Night, and if the sword was taken by his 'brother' to end the Long Night. The hero that overcame the wielder of Ice (he who ruled in darkness), would be a fitting candidate for the first Sword of the Morning.

Of course, that is but one way to fit the pieces together, and there are many other ways to do so. But I like this way because of what it means for Ned (a King of Winter) killing Arthur Dayne (SotM) at the tower of joy. By killing Arthur, I think Ned did two things simultaneously:  he freed the Others from their 8000 year retreat, and, he gave Jon the ability to rise as the next Sword of the Morning. In other words, he seriously f*cked everything up, but he also created the means to undo the f*ck up. He killed the lightswitch, but he raised a new one, and installed it at the Wall. ;)

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4 minutes ago, Voice said:

 

 

 

Quoted you both because I believe these ideas are far from being mutually exclusive. To the contrary, I think the fact that House Stark lost the original Ice, and are the original "Kings of Winter," is a clue that their ancestral sword was used in conjunction with the Long Night.

Dawn, as the original (and only, in my opinion) Lightbringer makes a lot of sense. But then, we are left at wondering why a Sword brought light to the world. I think it all fits together if the original Ice was part of the darkness known as the Long Night, and if the sword was taken by his 'brother' to end the Long Night. The hero that overcame the wielder of Ice (he who ruled in darkness), would be a fitting candidate for the first Sword of the Morning.

Of course, that is but one way to fit the pieces together, and there are many other ways to do so. But I like this way because of what it means for Ned (a King of Winter) killing Arthur Dayne (SotM) at the tower of joy. By killing Arthur, I think Ned did two things simultaneously:  he freed the Others from their 8000 year retreat, and, he gave Jon the ability to rise as the next Sword of the Morning. In other words, he seriously f*cked everything up, but he also created the means to undo the f*ck up. He killed the lightswitch, but he raised a new one, and installed it at the Wall. ;)


I really, really like what you've got going on here. I just have one question- how would he have given Jon the ability to be the next Sword of the Morning? 

Would it be Arthur dying just as he was being born? (Going with R+L=J and "Only death can pay for life") This would be interesting. 

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1 minute ago, Jewel said:

I really, really like what you've got going on here. I just have one question- how would he have given Jon the ability to be the next Sword of the Morning? 

I see Ned's actions as the cause of significant consequences. Arthur's death was a somewhat fated sacrifice, in that there must always be a hero who can rise to meet the challenge of the Long Night. And, House Dayne seems uniquely positioned in history to produce such a hero.

I think that in a cosmic sense, Dayne had to die in order for Jon to be SotM. One sun sets so another can rise. I see Arthur and Ned caught in one such cycle. They may have both understood it, they may have not, or one might have while the other didn't. It makes little difference to me. What matters in my mind is that they chose to act within that cycle (the circadian rhythm of the very planet), and that by doing so ended up causing the Star to fall, Dawn to fall, the SotM to fall -- and he fell to the Stark of Winterfell.

I could of course be wrong about absolutely all of this. It just seems that this event would be significant if Night's King is a Stark (or, The Builder of House Stark) and has been waiting to return and reclaim his sword. It also fits that Jon would be the lone Stark+Dayne that could bring catharsis to the miasma. And for myself, it would also make sense of the notion that Winter seems to be emanating from Winterfell itself now that there is no Stark in Winterfell, while a Dayne-Stark Bastard lies bleeding in the ice. But, tis all conjecture in the end.

 

1 minute ago, Jewel said:

Would it be Arthur dying just as he was being born? (Going with R+L=J and "Only death can pay for life") This would be interesting. 

I think Jon was "born with the dead" and that both his mother and father were ghosts by the time he was born. And I think this born from ghosts aspect of his birth has given Jon unique perspective. Like his pup, his eyes alone are open while the others are still blind. And, it just so happens Jon is one of the better swordsmen of his generation, and is inherently tied to the Old Gods.

RLJ makes it interesting, but it doesn't make it plausible. Dawn and Ice are Westerosi traditions, thus I see Jon in more Westerosi-terms. Houses Stark and Dayne are the two oldest houses we've learned about in Westeros. And Jon needs to be "of House Dayne" in order to wield Dawn:

 

The World of Ice and Fire - Dorne: The Andals Arrive

Though many houses have their heirloom swords, they mostly pass the blades down from lord to lord. Some, such as the Corbrays have done, may lend the blade to a son or brother for his lifetime, only to have it return to the lord. But that is not the way of House Dayne. The wielder of Dawn is always given the title of Sword of the Morning, and only a knight of House Dayne who is deemed worthy can carry it.
 
For this reason, the Swords of the Morning are all famous throughout the Seven Kingdoms. There are boys who secretly dream of being a son of Starfall so they might claim that storied sword and its title. Most famous of all was Ser Arthur Dayne, the deadliest of King Aerys II's Kingsguard, who defeated the Kingswood Brotherhood and won renown in every tourney and mêlée. He died nobly with his sworn brothers at the end of Robert's Rebellion, after Lord Eddard Stark was said to have killed him in single combat. Lord Stark then returned Dawn to Starfall, and to Ser Arthur's kin, as a sign of respect.
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Some additional info, @Jewel:

The Citadel: 10.2.4.1. The Daynes of Starfall
  • Starfall sits on the shores of the Summer Sea (I: 55)
  • The Daynes may be largely violet-eyed (I: 55)
  • The Daynes have a famous greatsword, named Dawn whose blade is as pale as milkglass (I: 354)
  • The sister of Arthur Dayne, Ashara Dayne, threw herself into the sea after Eddard Stark brought her the familial sword Dawn which the Sword of the Morning carried (I: 407)
  • The sword Dawn was forged from the heart of a fallen star (II: 243)
  • Ser Arthur Dayne was Prince Rhaegar Targaryen's oldest friend (III: 90)
  • Arthur Dayne was said to be the only knight in the realm who was Prince Rhaegar's peer (III: 90)
  • At least some Daynes are fair-haired (III: 387, 493)
  • Edric Dayne, lord of Starfall, was born in the 287th year after Aegon's Conquest, the only son of the prior Lord Dayne who had been elder brother to Ser Arthur, Ashara, and the still-living Allyria (III: 493-495. SSM: 1)
  • Ashara Dayne threw herself from a tower at Starfall called the Palestone Sword (III: 495)
  • Allyria Dayne says her sister Ashara fell in love with Lord Eddard Stark of Winterfell at the great tournament at Harrenhal, and killed herself because of a broken heart (III: 495)
  • The Smiling Knight was a madman, chivalry and cruelty all jumbled together, but he did not know the meaning of fear. When Ser Arthur Dayne broke the Kingswood Brotherhood, he fought against the squire Jaime Lannister and then against the Sword of the Morning with Dawn in his hands. The outlaw's sword had so many notches by the end that Ser Arthur had stopped to let him fetch a new one. When the robber knight told Dayne that it was Dawn that he wanted when the fight resumed, Ser Arthur responded that he would have it and made an end of it, killing him (III: 753)
  • Ulrik Dayne was a past Sword of the Morning, and clearly accounted one of the great warriors in 211, although it is not clear when he actually lived (TSS: 137)
  • Sword of the Morning is an office that some men of House Dayne are selected to hold if they're deemed worthy to carry Dawn (TSS: 137. SSM: 1, 2, SSM: 3)
  • A cadet branch of the family serve as vassals to Starfall, ruling as the Knights of High Hermitage, a castle in the mountains (IV: 300)
  • The Daynes and Oakhearts have fought one another for several thousand years (IV: 302)
  • The Daynes have existed for ten thousand years, to the dawn of days, it's said (IV: 304)
  • Ashara Dayne was not stuck in Starfall the entire time of the war, apparently, and was a lady in waiting to Princess Elia in the first few years of her marriage to Prince Rhaegar (SSM: 1)
  • Ashara Dayne's body was never recovered from the sea (SSM: 1)
  • Dawn is at least a few thousand years old, and beyond that matters grow hazy (SSM: 1)
  • The family is not descended at all from Valyrian blood (SSM: 1)
  • The greatsword Dawn has had an illustrious history (SSM: 1)
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As much as I like this theory, I'm a firm RLJ supporter. I would argue that maybe House Dayne is of Valyrian descent, but that has been confirmed not to be true as provided by the additional information. 

This however does not mean I don't appreciate all the work you put into this theory. Unlike many other theorists you provide possible end game information- which I find a fascinating story that could unfold. I'm assuming this theory supports either N+A=J or B+A=J. Any other theory I've read about Jon being half Dayne never provided what it would mean for him as a character and for him in the grand scheme of things, one of the main reasons I don't support those theories- they make Jon dull, when he's obviously meant to be an important character and his descent is obviously of great importance as well. 

You allowed me to see it from another perspective, and an interesting one at that. 

Sidenote and slightly unrelated- the additional info you provide states Ashara's body was never recovered from the sea. I take this as it hasn't been found. Could she still be alive?

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2 hours ago, Jewel said:

As much as I like this theory, I'm a firm RLJ supporter. I would argue that maybe House Dayne is of Valyrian descent, but that has been confirmed not to be true as provided by the additional information. 

This however does not mean I don't appreciate all the work you put into this theory. Unlike many other theorists you provide possible end game information- which I find a fascinating story that could unfold. I'm assuming this theory supports either N+A=J or B+A=J. Any other theory I've read about Jon being half Dayne never provided what it would mean for him as a character and for him in the grand scheme of things, one of the main reasons I don't support those theories- they make Jon dull, when he's obviously meant to be an important character and his descent is obviously of great importance as well. 

You allowed me to see it from another perspective, and an interesting one at that. 

Sidenote and slightly unrelated- the additional info you provide states Ashara's body was never recovered from the sea. I take this as it hasn't been found. Could she still be alive?

It's all good. Just a fantasy series after all. :)

I once argued the merits of RLJ right along with the best of them. Then I was on the fence for a year or two. After my last reread, my mind has changed. I encourage you to keep yours open, as Targaryens are Conquerors, not Saviors. And though it is incredibly easy to love, particularly here at Westeros. RLJ as a theory is not without its holes and contradictions however, some of which I have highlighted here.

I don't have much of an opinion on Ashara although I did once put together a list of passages that support the idea she is Jon's mother LOL, but many have suggested she is alive and well as Quaithe. Others have even suggested she might have been Dany's mother (link).

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@Jewel, I actually can fix your Dayne problem for you. Although they are not of Valyrian, descent, I have made a strong case that they share a common ancestor with Valyria, which would be the Great Empire of the Dawn, whom I believe to be the original dragonlords  who built Asshai and the fused stone fortress at Battle Isle. You may want to read my first essay /blog podcast on my blog first, as it will make more sense that way, but here's the link to the essay about the Daynes and the GEotD: 

 

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 Regarding WF being like the frozen dead lands @Voice

 

Quote

The Great Keep was already lost to sight behind them. The yard was a white wilderness, full of half-heard sounds that echoed strangely amidst the storm. The icy trenches rose around them, knee high, then waist high, then higher than their heads. They were in the heart of Winterfell with the castle all around them, but no sign of it could be seen. They might have easily been lost amidst the Land of Always Winter, a thousand leagues beyond the Wall. “It’s cold,” Jeyne Poole whimpered as she stumbled along at Theon’s side. And soon to be colder. Beyond the castle walls, winter was waiting with its icy teeth.

 

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4 minutes ago, LmL said:

 Regarding WF being like the frozen dead lands @Voice

 

 

Oh yeah. Plenty like that. Winterfell is warm as a heart with hot blood pumping through it. Even in summer, the landscape can be covered in ice. But still, the castle was warm.... until now.

Now, Winter is truly coming to Winterfell, and it might be for the first time since the Long Night. I believe the Wall was built to guard Winterfell, but it too will crack.

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@Jewel - I've recently become obsessed with this concept.  I was turned onto it mostly due to the Lucifer means Lightbringer chain.  I've always been fascinated by the greatest knight who ever lived, but who isn't drawn to his legend?  Though childish, I feel I have a special connection to Ser Arthur Dayne, for he is my namesake (though spelled differently): I am Dain, son of Richard, son of Arthur.

A sword made from/drawn from stone, and the power/knowledge to create such a sword, just seems pregnant with legend-birthing goop.  Add a helping of the most famous knightly/kingly legend (another namesake of Ser Arthur Dayne's) and it's too much for even the most cynical to ignore. King Arthur is heavily associated with dragons - Pendragon means Dragon's Head (the Dragon must have 3 Heads, after all), his standard featured a red dragon, the red dragon is often associated with the prophecy of his rise. 

I believe that Excalibur was forged with material taken from a skystone - a meteorite. (Basically the basis for the Skystone/A Dream of Eagles/Camulod Chronicles novels.)  

I've not yet worked out  my own version of how all of these interconnected notions come together in our story. Magical swords, legendary knights and dragons are common in fantasy, so one could argue we're reading too far into it. The ideas presented by contributors here continue to help me piece my own theory together. I enjoy this collective effort to work this out.  I certainly would not have made all of these connections without reading other fan theories. But I guess my message is to consider Arthurian legend when brainstorming about this mystery.

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