Daenerys and the Dosh Khaleen - what doesn't seem to make sense?

[Anarcho]

Obviously we don't know whether it's GRRM or D+D who are responsible for this plotline, but the implication that Dany is now to be judged and punished for not going to the Dosh Khaleen when Drogo died seems very odd.

For a start, it's a surprise that the Dothraki have something akin to a legal process at all. They seem to be governed by a mixture of the sheer arbitrary strength and power of the Khals, coupled with custom (not to downplay custom, they clearly take it very seriously - e.g. no spilling blood in Vaes Dothrak). Having a court-style council that will debate innocence or guilt and then hand out a specific punishment is very different from this.

More importantly, however, is the question: why would the Dothraki think to come up with something like this? Think about it. The overwhelming majority of Khaleesis are Dothraki themselves. They've learnt from birth that widowed Khaleesis go to the Dosh Khaleen, and it's all they know. They have no independent means of living outside the Dothraki Sea. Their only family and kinship relationships are with other Dothraki (maybe they have family in other Khalasars, but that's as far as it will get). In other words, their whole anthropological and cultural "context" is with the Dothraki. They go to the Dosh Khaleen because they have no other choice - they'd otherwise be abandoning their entire life, culture and kin for nothing. There'd be no need to enforce the rule because it would be self-enforcing.

Dany, by contrast, is not Dothraki, has no kinship relations within the Dothraki Sea (but some outside it), and does have independent means of pursuing another life. She's a hugely unlikely exception to the rule, which makes their desire to enforce the rule on her even more bizarre.

[A bowl of brown]

Judging by the rest of the series if say its pretty safe to say its a d&d decision. 

[Kiwi]

The key is simple - if it doesn't make sense, it means D&D are behind it. About the Dosh Khaleen, you're right, but the discussion should really start from this point - why would they even, in any way, defy her will, or try to judge her, if in the last episode they were calling her the mother of dragons (so they know about the dragons). But I guess Dothraki don't care about dragons, cause it's not like dragons fry people alive, eat them, or "lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground". Even if they somehow understood that Dany does not straight up control the dragons, it still seems risky to take her with them to Vaes Dothrak, not to mention force her to literally anything, or disrespect her. Risky doesn't even begin to cover it, (show)Dothraki are suicidal.

[Ser Yorick Ampersand]

I think its just a McGuffin for Dany to get the Dothraki to fight on her side.

I just hope they don't milk it the whole season and have Drogon rescue Dany in episode 5 or 6 max.

[Ludo Kressh]

18 minutes ago, Ser Yorick Ampersand said:

I think its just a McGuffin for Dany to get the Dothraki to fight on her side.

I just hope they don't milk it the whole season and have Drogon rescue Dany in episode 5 or 6 max.

This, I really don't want a rehash of her season one arc.

[Anarcho]

41 minutes ago, Kiwi said:

The key is simple - if it doesn't make sense, it means D&D are behind it. About the Dosh Khaleen, you're right, but the discussion should really start from this point - why would they even, in any way, defy her will, or try to judge her, if in the last episode they were calling her the mother of dragons (so they know about the dragons). But I guess Dothraki don't care about dragons, cause it's not like dragons fry people alive, eat them, or "lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground". Even if they somehow understood that Dany does not straight up control the dragons, it still seems risky to take her with them to Vaes Dothrak, not to mention force her to literally anything, or disrespect her. Risky doesn't even begin to cover it, (show)Dothraki are suicidal.

That's a good point. If they know about the Dragons, they may well also know about the Unsullied (who it's fair to presume after the Battle of Qohor genuinely scare Dothraki) and Meereen. And if by some stretch they don't (or just don't believe her), then why do they assume she didn't go to the Dosh Khaleen out of choice? She could just have been delayed or captured - Essos is a huge and dangerous place.

[messem]

1 hour ago, Kiwi said:

The key is simple - if it doesn't make sense, it means D&D are behind it. About the Dosh Khaleen, you're right, but the discussion should really start from this point - why would they even, in any way, defy her will, or try to judge her, if in the last episode they were calling her the mother of dragons (so they know about the dragons). 

My Dothraki is a bit rusty. Could they've meant that ironically? Regarding the title list she was giving last episode. Maybe?

[Greg B]

I mean, it's Martin who sent Dany back to the Dothraki. As for the Dosh Khaleen, it's an ancient cultural tradition. The Dothraki don't have any codified laws as far as I know, but they do have traditions and their traditions are presumably important to them. (The phrase "it is known" is a pretty good indicator that they aren't especially open-minded or pluralistic where their cultural traditions are concerned.) When a khal dies, the khaleesi goes to the Dosh Khaleen. It is known. Dany is a khaleesi whose khal died, and she violated this custom. Why would anyone expect the Dothraki to say, "Oh, well, she's Daenerys Stormborn, Breaker of Chains, Mother of Dragons, etc., etc., she needn't respect our ancient customs"?

[Forlong the Fat]

2 hours ago, Anarcho said:

Obviously we don't know whether it's GRRM or D+D who are responsible for this plotline, but the implication that Dany is now to be judged and punished for not going to the Dosh Khaleen when Drogo died seems very odd.

For a start, it's a surprise that the Dothraki have something akin to a legal process at all. They seem to be governed by a mixture of the sheer arbitrary strength and power of the Khals, coupled with custom (not to downplay custom, they clearly take it very seriously - e.g. no spilling blood in Vaes Dothrak). Having a court-style council that will debate innocence or guilt and then hand out a specific punishment is very different from this.

More importantly, however, is the question: why would the Dothraki think to come up with something like this? Think about it. The overwhelming majority of Khaleesis are Dothraki themselves. They've learnt from birth that widowed Khaleesis go to the Dosh Khaleen, and it's all they know. They have no independent means of living outside the Dothraki Sea. Their only family and kinship relationships are with other Dothraki (maybe they have family in other Khalasars, but that's as far as it will get). In other words, their whole anthropological and cultural "context" is with the Dothraki. They go to the Dosh Khaleen because they have no other choice - they'd otherwise be abandoning their entire life, culture and kin for nothing. There'd be no need to enforce the rule because it would be self-enforcing.

Dany, by contrast, is not Dothraki, has no kinship relations within the Dothraki Sea (but some outside it), and does have independent means of pursuing another life. She's a hugely unlikely exception to the rule, which makes their desire to enforce the rule on her even more bizarre.

The dothraki practice is similar to (and in fact less harsh than) actual historical practices (eg, sati and widow strangling). The idea that a Male dominated culture like the dothraki would make an exception to a sacred practice because of the wife's cultural beliefs is frankly absurd. 

[Noveson]

2 hours ago, Anarcho said:

Obviously we don't know whether it's GRRM or D+D who are responsible for this plotline, but the implication that Dany is now to be judged and punished for not going to the Dosh Khaleen when Drogo died seems very odd.

For a start, it's a surprise that the Dothraki have something akin to a legal process at all. They seem to be governed by a mixture of the sheer arbitrary strength and power of the Khals, coupled with custom (not to downplay custom, they clearly take it very seriously - e.g. no spilling blood in Vaes Dothrak). Having a court-style council that will debate innocence or guilt and then hand out a specific punishment is very different from this.

More importantly, however, is the question: why would the Dothraki think to come up with something like this? Think about it. The overwhelming majority of Khaleesis are Dothraki themselves. They've learnt from birth that widowed Khaleesis go to the Dosh Khaleen, and it's all they know. They have no independent means of living outside the Dothraki Sea. Their only family and kinship relationships are with other Dothraki (maybe they have family in other Khalasars, but that's as far as it will get). In other words, their whole anthropological and cultural "context" is with the Dothraki. They go to the Dosh Khaleen because they have no other choice - they'd otherwise be abandoning their entire life, culture and kin for nothing. There'd be no need to enforce the rule because it would be self-enforcing.

Dany, by contrast, is not Dothraki, has no kinship relations within the Dothraki Sea (but some outside it), and does have independent means of pursuing another life. She's a hugely unlikely exception to the rule, which makes their desire to enforce the rule on her even more bizarre.

Have you seen more episodes than I have or something?  Where do they say there is a legal proceeding?  Or a court-style council?  As far as I know I haven't seen anything besides the possibility that they punish Dany for not adhering to their customs, which make complete sense to me as they were laid out pretty well in the books by George, and as far as I can remember have been followed completely. 

[Nerevanin]

Although I'd say that it makes sense that the Dothraki would want to discuss this whole new situation (a khal widow didn't go to Dosh Khaleen) and solve it somehow, it really doesn't make much sense that they would do such a thing AFTER they randomly found Daenerys like THREE YEARS (or more, not sure about how the time goes in the show) after Drogo's death. Like, why? It really didn't cross their minds before that Drogo had a wife and that she wasn't in Dosh Khaleen? There are two realistic posibilities how to handle this situation: either they don't care at all, no matter if they have or don't have Dany, or they would agree that such a breach of Dothraki law can't go unpunished and they would go after Daenerys to drag her back to Dosh Khaleen asap. This posibility - caring after having Dany - is a show posibility and not a realistic one and it is clearly used only to buy time for Jorah and Daario to come in and save the day.

[Corvinus85]

3 minutes ago, Noveson said:

Have you seen more episodes than I have or something?  Where do they say there is a legal proceeding?  Or a court-style council?  As far as I know I haven't seen anything besides the possibility that they punish Dany for not adhering to their customs, which make complete sense to me as they were laid out pretty well in the books by George, and as far as I can remember have been followed completely. 

You misunderstand. The dialogue in the episode clearly indicated that there will be some sort of council to decide Dany's fate. A council of khals, I believe. So there is a sort of court proceeding, which as the OP says does seem unusual for the Dothraki way of life.

For example, if someone were to spill blood in Vaes Dothrak, they would not gather a bunch of khals in council to deliberate, they would just kill the offender on the spot. But the show has turned Dany's situation into something special.

And my guess as to why the show is doing it this way is this: GRRM intends to have Dany gain some sort of power over the Dothraki, and he told D&D this. But I think in the book it will be a longer, more arduous process, which is how everything about Dany's journey has been so far in the books. So D&D are once again compressing things, by creating a situation where Dany could quickly and decisively achieve that level of power. 

[Greg B]

1 minute ago, Corvinus said:

But I think in the book it will be a longer, more arduous process

I have no doubt.

[Gwindor]

I think it's really very simple, and fitting into the book story.

The khal dies, the khaleesi joins the dosh khaleen. It is known. Khal Drogo died, but khaleesi Daenerys is nowhere to be seen around Vaes Dothrak. Well, who cares? Maybe she died as well. The Dothraki have traditions and strictly follow them, but it's not like they have some police-like tradition enforcing unit to actively look for Dany and bring her to her place.

But then, a couple of years pass, and she is found alive and kicking in the Dothraki sea. Now that's another issue. A khal's widow for several years now, and still not among the crones. That will not do. In fact, there are some among the Dothraki who would see her punished, like killed or raped or enslaved. And since no blood can be spilled in Vaes Dothrak (it is known), there will be a discussion about what do to with such an outrageous violation of tradition. In no way this can resemble a legal process (well, in the books, they are apparently capable of anything in the show), but rather a noisy gathering of khals shouting at each other in threatening voices.

[Forlong the Fat]

3 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

You misunderstand. The dialogue in the episode clearly indicated that there will be some sort of council to decide Dany's fate. A council of khals, I believe. So there is a sort of court proceeding, which as the OP says does seem unusual for the Dothraki way of life.

For example, if someone were to spill blood in Vaes Dothrak, they would not gather a bunch of khals in council to deliberate, they would just kill the offender on the spot. But the show has turned Dany's situation into something special.

And my guess as to why the show is doing it this way is this: GRRM intends to have Dany gain some sort of power over the Dothraki, and he told D&D this. But I think in the book it will be a longer, more arduous process, which is how everything about Dany's journey has been so far in the books. So D&D are once again compressing things, by creating a situation where Dany could quickly and decisively achieve that level of power. 

They didn't turn the situation into something special. The head widow knew exactly how it would be handled. 

And a counsel isn't a court proceeding. It's a counsel. Where did you get the idea that the Dothraki have no practice of collective decision-making? The fact that they have accepted, common rules clearly proves otherwise. 

[Noveson]

2 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

You misunderstand. The dialogue in the episode clearly indicated that there will be some sort of council to decide Dany's fate. A council of khals, I believe. So there is a sort of court proceeding, which as the OP says does seem unusual for the Dothraki way of life.

For example, if someone were to spill blood in Vaes Dothrak, they would not gather a bunch of khals in council to deliberate, they would just kill the offender on the spot. But the show has turned Dany's situation into something special.

And my guess as to why the show is doing it this way is this: GRRM intends to have Dany gain some sort of power over the Dothraki, and he told D&D this. But I think in the book it will be a longer, more arduous process, which is how everything about Dany's journey has been so far in the books. So D&D are once again compressing things, by creating a situation where Dany could quickly and decisively achieve that level of power. 

I don't misunderstand at all, you're just drawing parallels between things that aren't similar.  For one I hope you aren't saying "once again compressing things" like it's a bad thing, because if you are you're a lost cause, go read the books again.  Secondly how you think attacking someone in Vaes Dothrak is the same thing as Dany not showing up there after Drogo dies is the same thing is beyond me.  A decision made between the khals over a situation that probably doesn't happen often makes a lot of sense..

[Noveson]

7 minutes ago, A bowl of brown said:

You seriously think dorne is going to end up the same way in the books?

What doesnt make sense to me is things like dany forgetting dothraki customs. Or drogo not being there when shes gound. Or the dothraki forgetting she existed.

Obviously not, but do I think this will be the same?  yes.  Although it will probably be more drawn out.  

That doesn't make sense to you??? That was decided not to go live out her life in Vaes Dothrak because she hatched dragons?  Or that she wasn't super well versed on what happened when your khal dies?  Or that the dothraki didn't chase her across the wasteland?? jesus

[Corvinus85]

15 minutes ago, Noveson said:

I don't misunderstand at all, you're just drawing parallels between things that aren't similar.  For one I hope you aren't saying "once again compressing things" like it's a bad thing, because if you are you're a lost cause, go read the books again.  Secondly how you think attacking someone in Vaes Dothrak is the same thing as Dany not showing up there after Drogo dies is the same thing is beyond me.  A decision made between the khals over a situation that probably doesn't happen often makes a lot of sense..

First, "compressing things" could be bad, or not, it all depends. I was just saying that this has been a method that it looks like it is being employed heavily recently since D&D have said how much material they have planned to work with.

As to my example, I'm not sure sure why it's "beyond you." It's another example of someone breaking Dothraki rules, and unlike this situation, it would be dealt with swiftly. Why can't the Dosh Khaleen, who are considered the wise ones of the Dothraki, capable of deciding Dany's fate. Why do khals have to be summoned to decide her fate?

[Forlong the Fat]

2 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

First, "compressing things" could be bad, or not, it all depends. I was just saying that this has been a method that it looks like it is being employed heavily recently since D&D have said how much material they have planned to work with.

As to my example, I'm not sure sure why it's "beyond you." It's another example of someone breaking Dothraki rules, and unlike this situation, it would be dealt with swiftly. Why can't the Dosh Khaleen, who are considered the wise ones of the Dothraki, capable of deciding Dany's fate. Why do khals have to be summoned to decide her fate?

Because she belongs to the Khals. Before he died, she belonged to Khal Drogo. After he died she belonged to them collectively. That's the plain meaning of the custom, which is obviously patterned on numerous real historical customs providing that a wife shouldn't live past her husband. 

[Noveson]

4 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

First, "compressing things" could be bad, or not, it all depends. I was just saying that this has been a method that it looks like it is being employed heavily recently since D&D have said how much material they have planned to work with.

As to my example, I'm not sure sure why it's "beyond you." It's another example of someone breaking Dothraki rules, and unlike this situation, it would be dealt with swiftly. Why can't the Dosh Khaleen, who are considered the wise ones of the Dothraki, capable of deciding Dany's fate. Why do khals have to be summoned to decide her fate?

Summoned?  They are already there.  Honestly you're just propping up these ideas of how you think their culture is supposed to work, and then attacking D&D for apparently making them that way.  While rationally every single nitpick can be easily explained.  Maybe the Khals are deciding because the Dosh Khaleen belong to the Khals still, maybe they aren't outright killing here because some don't think she should be killed(after all like you said the Dothraki value strength very highly), maybe this situation is unprecedented for them and so they are having to decide how to act.  

There's simple answers to every single issue you have