Bran Time Paradox Theory

[Tywin's Sideburns]

Probably mentioned before by someone but I predict that history will repeat itself based on the revelations in "The Door". The war for the dawn will happen again and in the end Bran will somehow have to rebuild the remains of civilization, hence he will take the mantle of Bran the builder. Major events like the OP mentioned: Robert's Rebellion, madness of Aerys etc. are all indirect causes of Bran or the preceding green seers like Bloodraven and the ones before him. Maybe Bran even had a hand in the original war for the dawn and must take action again in the upcoming war. Or like someone said before, there could be multiple timelines where different outcomes occur, meaning GRRM is a fan of parallel universe theories.

[The Dragon has three heads]

On 11 May 2016 at 6:17 AM, Castigear said:

"The ink is dry." I don't think the 3ER meant that Bran cannot affect time, rather that he cannot change what already was written. Ned always heard something. Anything Bran will do to try and affect the past was already part of history, IMO.

It would be interesting to see Bran be the catalyst of some things we have already seen, like Aegon's voices. Perhaps he ends up being the reason Hodor's mind breaks (trying to warg through time maybe?). If he tries to meddle too much, he could be the cause of a lot of the misery that has befallen Westeros. But change history? I don't think it'll work that way. 

Well played sir 

[The Dragon has three heads]

Called bran the time lord ages ago.

he is forced to live in his own closed loop, but this is better than the Other, bitter sweet.

 

[TheGodsoftheNorth]

I thought something similar to your idea that bran was whispering to the Mad King. My first thought though, was that the old gods would communicate with the First Men and the Northerners through the werewood trees, and the three eyed crow uses the trees to see the past, present and future. We have already seen that bran may be able to have an impact on the past, so my theory is that bran and the three eyed crow are acting as the old gods to influence events so they lead to where bran or the three eyed crow want them to. It was even stated that the three eyed crow waited a thousand years for bran, so what if he spent that time influencing people in the north in a way that would lead bran to him, so bran could find his power. It was Jojen who lead bran to the tree with his green sight, which is only a thing in the north, where the old gods are still worshipped. What if the green sight is only the three eyed  crow showing vision to certain people. Like he would show them to jojen to lead him and meet a North, where they would end up helping bran. 

[RUSSELL BELL]

I honestly don't like the idea of time travel in either the show or the books but I guess GRRM had to find a way to make Bran powerful and relevant so fair enough. Time travel is just too tricky and its hard to pull off, I'm eager to see whether either the show or the books can do so but I bet this is going to end up like Lost with more questions than answers. 

[Castigear]

22 hours ago, UselessOpinion said:

Time travel is a big, ugly can of worms which has only been exacerbated by the fact that the show and the source material are written by different people. Although, I'm guessing the show writers are writing it based on what they know what GRRM has already set up.

 

D&D recounted a story where GRRM told them the origin of the name Hodor. They did a LOT of picking his brain about future events and they have basically a cliff notes version of the rest of the story...just because we still have books to go, they have the rest of the story (at least the version of the story GRRM had in his head at the time of the brain picking). Anyway, the fact that they got the Hodor origin from GRRM tells me that he adheres to the immutable timeline theory too. Hodor was who he was through the entire journey that led them to the event that made Hodor the way he was. That makes it clear that history cannot be changed, the past all already happened.

[Castigear]

23 hours ago, kimim said:

 

This is interesting, but then you have to wonder why Bran did not return and prevent himself from falling, prevent dad from going to King's Landing. Bran CAN do these things; it's not as if everyone he communicates with falls down in a fit. Jon did not.

Time is immutable. What that means is, if Bran goes back and tries to stop himself from falling, he will fail. Because he fell. Even worse, he could inadvertently be the reason he fell in the first place (he could be the noise that made Cersei look up). Either way, events in the past are the way they are, with or without his participation. If he decided to go back and meddle, then he was ALWAYS there in the past meddling. 

[Neds Secret]

1 minute ago, Castigear said:

Time is immutable. What that means is, if Bran goes back and tries to stop himself from falling, he will fail. Because he fell. Even worse, he could inadvertently be the reason he fell in the first place (he could be the noise that made Cersei look up). Either way, events in the past are the way they are, with or without his participation. If he decided to go back and meddle, then he was ALWAYS there in the past meddling. 

Exactly, he can only do again what he has already done and will always end up at the point he now finds himself at!

[Meera of Tarth]

I think that Bran may change the past or either, he can't. But we don't know yet. I paste it here from Bran's growing powers thread because it's about this topic, but I've already written it there. I'm sure there are better explanations. I'm not good at timetravel, but here's what I think:

3 hypothesis:

cyclic, not changes are possible, but there is more than one Bran......"normal timetravel"; if there are changes, that means new timelines, but it's not the case

• Are we supposed to think that a Bran from the Future did the same thing some time ago in the cave while our Bran was a baby and that our Hodor collapsed 20 years ago because of the action of that Bran from the Future in his past that turn out to be OUR past, the past in which OUR Hodor became Wyllis? Because Hodor was Hodor time before OUR BRAN warged Hodor in the cave. And Wyllis is warged AFTER present Bran wargs Present Hodor. 
• -So maybe OUR Bran warged Present Hodor and also warged a Wyllis from the past just like FBran did, but the Wyllis whom he warged was not OUR Hodor from our known past, but a Hodor that will meet a Bran that has yet to appear, that now is a baby, probably.
• This baby will become a Future Bran (not the Future Bran I was taking about, that was the first Bran, this would be the Third Bran, being OUR Bran the second).

cyclic, only one Bran affecting the past but it's the same past that results into our present. Somebody mentioned the llop here and I think they are right.

• -I think the one timeline with different Brans doing the same is not the explanation. Because we need two Brans to explain Present Hodor. But one Bran doing the same things results into a loop, which is even more complicated. And not only a loop, but a loop in which those actions are not simultaneous, considering that what we saw were two wargings not simultaneous.

Bran has changed the past, without knowing it, and created a new timeline

• -Anyway, that would mean that timelines are cyclic, and the ink is always dry. My take is that the ink can't be dry and that is even more complicated, but interesting:
• So probably  that Present Hodor was created in another circumstance, and not The Hold The Door we already know. Present Bran created Hodor, but not the one we know, but another future Hodor, changing the past, and possibly the Present of GOT.

[Castigear]

15 minutes ago, RUSSELL BELL said:

I honestly don't like the idea of time travel in either the show or the books but I guess GRRM had to find a way to make Bran powerful and relevant so fair enough. Time travel is just too tricky and its hard to pull off, I'm eager to see whether either the show or the books can do so but I bet this is going to end up like Lost with more questions than answers. 

Time travel in fiction is only tricky if the writers mix time travel theories. For example, in Back to the Future, the entire trilogy is based on the concept of a fluid timeline, where things can be changed. EXCEPT for the part about Marty giving Chuck Berry the idea for Rock music, THAT part adheres to the fixed timeline theory. It makes the whole story fall apart.

Fixed timeline, the one that the show is adhering to, is the cleanest when its in a story where time travel isn't the focus. There are no paradoxes (except for the possibility of a closed loop causation...Bran could go back and give someone the idea for the night's watch...where did the idea originally come from?) but more importantly there are no changes to the timeline, it is fixed. He can't go back and try to keep the night's watch from ever being created, because it was created.

[Meera of Tarth]

19 minutes ago, Castigear said:

Time travel in fiction is only tricky if the writers mix time travel theories. For example, in Back to the Future, the entire trilogy is based on the concept of a fluid timeline, where things can be changed. EXCEPT for the part about Marty giving Chuck Berry the idea for Rock music, THAT part adheres to the fixed timeline theory. It makes the whole story fall apart.

Fixed timeline, the one that the show is adhering to, is the cleanest when its in a story where time travel isn't the focus. There are no paradoxes (except for the possibility of a closed loop causation...Bran could go back and give someone the idea for the night's watch...where did the idea originally come from?) but more importantly there are no changes to the timeline, it is fixed. He can't go back and try to keep the night's watch from ever being created, because it was created.

And Bran's presense affects the past. But who affected the previous past?

I mean, I think the story may be a fixed timeline one, but there was always someone who said things from our present to his the past (Bran said Father!!), created a present and now is affecting the past in the same way.....

I kind of  like this considering it's poetic in a certain way, it adheres to the theories on the continuous creation of Big Bangs, for instance. 

it's also nostalgic. it also follows the ideas of a fixed destiny and prophecies, which the books are always talking about. 

But I'm not sure if that's all that will happen. Maybe this is one of the reasons GRRM said he has trouble writing Bran's POVS.

We will see.

[UselessOpinion]

2 hours ago, Castigear said:

D&D recounted a story where GRRM told them the origin of the name Hodor. They did a LOT of picking his brain about future events and they have basically a cliff notes version of the rest of the story...just because we still have books to go, they have the rest of the story (at least the version of the story GRRM had in his head at the time of the brain picking). Anyway, the fact that they got the Hodor origin from GRRM tells me that he adheres to the immutable timeline theory too. Hodor was who he was through the entire journey that led them to the event that made Hodor the way he was. That makes it clear that history cannot be changed, the past all already happened.

That seems to lazy though. It boils down to "just because" (Wylis becomes Hodor just because he becomes Hodor) and seems like one of those cliches Martin would try to avoid (RE: tolkien).

[Meera of Tarth]

and if present Bran created Hodor.....who created Hodor considering that at that moment Bran hadn't been born.

it must be a Bran from the future who experienced the same events if we are talking about a fixed timeline and this has always happened this way.

what's the other explanation that doesn't involve a change of events from Bran's part?

Bran being a not temporal entity; like a god. But Bran is not one.

[Consigliere]

Just reading through these various theories further reinforces my dislike of time travel. This stuff can become difficult to wrap one's head around and could end up detracting from the story. I sincerely hope that the show (and books, if it is the same) restricts Bran's interference with the past to this one event. Perhaps Bran does not really have the ability to change/influence the past and this situation with Bran-Wylis-Hodor was an exceptional one-time event and the conditions that allowed it to happen are unlikely to be recreated. Now that Bran knows what he did to Hodor, this should have an impact on him and prevent him from ever attempting to reach out to the past again.

[Castigear]

Sigh. This thread is another reason why the fixed timeline is what the show is going with...it is simplest because events never change. It works best with the general viewing audience and the lowest common denominator. 75% of people who try to contemplate time travel comprehend none of it, but want to talk about it the most, spewing scenarios that have no basis in real logic. With the fixed timeline there is no "first time through" "second time through" the entire timeline is fixed and immutable. Wyllis didn't become Hodor "just because", he became Hodor because Bran was wreckless and sloppy. The motivations are all still there, just like a book that has already been written. I give up.

[Valhalla Morghulis]

3 hours ago, Castigear said:

Sigh. This thread is another reason why the fixed timeline is what the show is going with...it is simplest because events never change. It works best with the general viewing audience and the lowest common denominator. 75% of people who try to contemplate time travel comprehend none of it, but want to talk about it the most, spewing scenarios that have no basis in real logic. With the fixed timeline there is no "first time through" "second time through" the entire timeline is fixed and immutable. Wyllis didn't become Hodor "just because", he became Hodor because Bran was wreckless and sloppy. The motivations are all still there, just like a book that has already been written. I give up.

It has to be the simplest version if it is used at all. Time travel is already a bit too clichéd a tool, and a more complex version of it becomes alienating and only interesting to geeks and nerds, and we can't let them out.

[Noelle Snow]

On 5/24/2016 at 4:42 PM, Castigear said:

Sigh. This thread is another reason why the fixed timeline is what the show is going with...it is simplest because events never change. It works best with the general viewing audience and the lowest common denominator. 75% of people who try to contemplate time travel comprehend none of it, but want to talk about it the most, spewing scenarios that have no basis in real logic. With the fixed timeline there is no "first time through" "second time through" the entire timeline is fixed and immutable. Wyllis didn't become Hodor "just because", he became Hodor because Bran was wreckless and sloppy. The motivations are all still there, just like a book that has already been written. I give up.

This. This type of time travel really is not that complex (as much as time travel can be simple). It's a closed loop paradox. Things happened because they always did happen. Anything Bran does or says in the past he's ALREADY SAID OR DONE and therefore in his present he's not changing anything because he's already done it to get to the present situation he's in. Like stated, there is no "first time".

Buckbeak in Prison of Azkaban is a perfect example as is Harry casting the patronus. Buckbeak never died because Harry & Hermione ALWAYS went back in time to save him. Harry saw the patronus being cast, saving himself and Sirius because he'd always gone back in time to cast that patronus, thus saving himself and allowing him to go back in time to cast the patronus, etc. The timeline never changes. It is what it is.

Another example - Terminator. John Connor sent Kyle Reese back in time to save Sarah Connor, who ends up sleeping with him and conceiving John Connor. So he sent his own father back in time which results in his conception.

[b00gieman]

Potential Spoilers Below

 

Jojen’s eyes were the color of moss, and sometimes when he looked at you he seemed to be seeing something else. Like now. “I dreamed of a winged wolf bound to earth with grey stone chains,” he said. “It was a green dream, so I knew it was true. A crow was trying to peck through the chains, but the stone was too hard and his beak could only chip at them.”

 

 

“How would I break the chains, Jojen?” Bran asked. “Open your eye.” “They are open Can’t you see?” “Two are open.” Jojen pointed. “One, two.” “I only have two.” “You have three. The crow gave you the third, but you will not open it.” He had a slow soft way of speaking. “With two eyes you see my face. With three you could see my heart. With two you can see that oak tree there. With three you could see the acorn the oak grew from and the stump that it will one day become. With two you see no farther than your walls. With three you would gaze south to the Summer Sea and north beyond the Wall.”

 

 

The falling, Bran thought, and the golden man, the queen’s brother, he scares me too, but mostly the falling. He did not say it, though.

 

Bran is scared to remember the truth

 

 

“Bran was staring at his arms, his legs. He was so skinny, just skin stretched taut over bones. Had he always been so thin? He tried to remember. A face swam up at him out of the grey mist, shining with light, golden. “The things I do for love,” it said.

 

Bran screamed.

 

The crow took to the air, cawing. Not that, it shrieked at him. Forget that, you do not need it now, put it aside, put it away. It landed on Bran’s shoulder, and pecked at him, and the shining golden face was gone.”

 

Note:  It was the 3-eyed crow that has Bran forget being pushed through the window by Jaime. 

 

“What is the Wheel of Time? Imagine a great cosmic loom in the shape of a seven-spoked wheel, slowly spinning through eternity, weaving the fabric of the universe. The Wheel, put in place by the Creator, is time itself, ever turning and returning. The fabric it weaves is constructed from the threads of lives and events, interlaced into a design, the Great Pattern, which is the whole of existence and reality, past, present, and future.”








“The Great Wheel is the very heart of all time. But even the Wheel requires energy to maintain itself and its pattern. This energy comes from the True Source, from which the One Power may be drawn. Both the True Source and the One Power are made up of two conflicting yet complementary parts: saidin, the male half, and saidar, the female half. Working both together and against one another within the True Source, it is saidin and saidar which provide the driving force that turns the Wheel of Time.”


“The only known forces outside the Wheel and the Pattern are the Creator, who shaped the Wheel, the One Power that drives it—as well as the plan for the Great Pattern—and the Dark One who was imprisoned outside the pattern by the Creator at the moment of creation. No one inside and of the Pattern can destroy the Wheel or change the destiny of the Great Pattern. Even those who are ta’veren can only alter, but not completely change, the weave. It is believed that if he escapes his prison, the Dark One, being a creature or force beyond creation, has the ability to remake the Wheel and all of creation in his own dark image. Thus each person, especially each of those born ta’veren, must struggle to achieve his or her own best destiny to assure the balance and continuation of the Great Pattern.”

 

“Egwene rubbed her temples. “There is a difference between touching the world and being free. During the War of Power, the Dark One was never truly released into the world. The Bore let him touch it, but that was re-sealed before he could escape. If the Dark One had entered the world, the Wheel itself would have been broken.”

Daenerys: “Lannister, Targaryen, Baratheon, Stark Tyrell.  They’re just spokes on a wheel.  This one’s on top, then that one’s on top.  And on and on it spins, crushing those on the ground. “

Tyrion: “It’s a beautiful dream, stopping the wheel.  You’re not the first person who’s every dreamt it.”

 

Daenerys: “I’m not going to stop the wheel.  I’m going to break the wheel.”

 

Note:  I’m just saying if Daenerys does what she wants to do in stopping the wheel it basically allows evil into this their world according to Egwene in TWOT.

“She dreamed. All her cares fell away from her, and all her pains as well, and she seemed to float upward into the sky. She was flying once again, spinning, laughing, dancing, as the stars wheeled around her and whispered secrets in her ear. “To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward, you must go back. To touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow.”

“Quaithe?” Dany called. “Where are you, Quaithe?”

Then she saw. Her mask is made of starlight.

“Remember who you are, Daenerys,” the stars whispered in a woman’s voice. “The dragons know. Do you?”

Note:  This sounds sinister to me. 

 

TWOT also say's that no one inside and of the Pattern can destroy the Wheel.  Danenerys seems somewhat certain she can do it.  She doesn't know who she is but the dragons do. I think whatever the great evil is it is part of her or is her.  The truth that she will learn will let us all know.


“Bore. The hole drilled in the Pattern by researchers at Collam Daan in an attempt to access an undivided source of the One Power, unwittingly releasing the Dark One’s influence on the world, causing destruction and chaos. The hole that was finally sealed by Lews Therin and the Hundred Companions was larger than the original Bore, for the longer it remained open the larger it got, though it was diminished somewhat in the sealing; the Dark One’s counterstroke tainted saidin, causing all male channelers to go mad. Nevertheless, it was sealed again in the Last Battle, and closed up again completely, thereby setting the stage for the Bore to be drilled anew.”

“Dark One. The force of evil, imprisoned by his antithesis, the Creator, outside of time and creation, but whose influence reached the world when researchers drilled the Bore, and whose subsequent followers attempted to release him from his prison. He was also known as Bringer of Gales, Caisen Hob, Dark Lord of the Grave, Father of Lies, Father of Storm(s), Grassburner, Great Lord of the Dark, Heart of the Dark, Heartsbane, Heartfang, Leafblighter, Lighteater, Lord of the Grave, Lord of the Twilight, Old Grim, Old Hob, Shadow, Shai’tan, Shepherd of the Night, Sightblinder, Sightburner, Soulblinder, Soulsbane and Stormbringer.


“To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow.”

Asshai, Dany thought. She would have me go to Asshai. “Will the Asshai’i give me an army?” she demanded. “Will there be gold for me in Asshai? Will there be ships? What is there in Asshai that I will not find in Qarth?”

“Truth,” said the woman in the mask. And bowing, she faded back into the crowd.”

Note: What truth?

 

 

The 3-eyed crow: “The time has come.”

 

Bran: “The Time for what?”

 

The 3-eyed crow: “For you to become me.”

 

Bran: “But am I ready?

 

The 3-eyed crow: “No.”

 

 

The follwing interaction with Jon and Bran took place in “A Clash of Kings” when Bran was still in Winterfell hiding in the crypts.  It took place before he had received any formal training with the Three-Eyed Crow.  What it means is that Bran did this most likely at a point in the future after “A Dance with Dragons.”  So a future Bran was able to go back and interact with his cousin Jon Snow.

 

The call came from behind him, softer than a whisper, but strong too. Can a shout be silent? He turned his head, searching for his brother, for a glimpse of a lean grey shape moving beneath the trees, but there was nothing, only . . .

A weirwood.

It seemed to sprout from solid rock, its pale roots twisting up from a myriad of fissures and hairline cracks. The tree was slender compared to other weirwoods he had seen, no more than a sapling, yet it was growing as he watched, its limbs thickening as they reached for the sky. Wary, he circled the smooth white trunk until he came to the face. Red eyes looked at him. Fierce eyes they were, yet glad to see him. The weirwood had his brother’s face. Had his brother always had three eyes?

Not always, came the silent shout. Not before the crow.

“He sniffed at the bark, smelled wolf and tree and boy, but behind that there were other scents, the rich brown smell of warm earth and the hard grey smell of stone and something else, something terrible. Death, he knew. He was smelling death. He cringed back, his hair bristling, and bared his fangs.”

“Don’t be afraid, I like it in the dark. No one can see you, but you can see them. But first you have to open your eyes. See? Like this. And the tree reached down and touched him.”

As the 3-eyed crow protected Bran from the knowledge that Jaime pushed him through the window; is Bran protecting Jon from the knowledge of who he is in the dream that he has but never finishes?  I believe he is.

 

“Do you ever find anyone in your dream?” Sam asked.

 

Jon shook his head. “No one. The castle is always empty.” He had never told anyone of the dream, and he did not understand why he was telling Sam now, yet somehow it felt good to talk of it. “Even the ravens are gone from the rookery, and the stables are full of bones. That always scares me. I start to run then, throwing open doors, climbing the tower three steps at a time, screaming for someone, for anyone. And then I find myself in front of the door to the crypts. It’s black inside, and I can see the steps spiraling down. Somehow I know I have to go down there, but I don’t want to. I’m afraid of what might be waiting for me. The old Kings of Winter are down there, sitting on their thrones with stone wolves at their feet and iron swords across their laps, but it’s not them I’m afraid of. I scream that I’m not a Stark, that this isn’t my place, but it’s no good, I have to go anyway, so I start down, feeling the walls as I descend, with no torch to light the way. It gets darker and darker, until I want to scream.” He stopped, frowning, embarrassed. “That’s when I always wake.” His skin cold and clammy, shivering in the darkness of his cell. Ghost would leap up beside him, his warmth as comforting as daybreak. He would go back to sleep with his face pressed into the direwolf’s shaggy white fur. “Do you dream of Horn Hill?” Jon asked.

 

Note:  I have always believed that when Jon finishes the dream it will be at a point where he is on the verge of becoming Azor Ahai.

Note:  What the 3-eyed crow said in telling Bran “The time has come.  For you to become me” now becomes prophetic.  Bran seems to be the like the 3-eyed crow and Jon seems to be the new Bran in that he is trying to open Jon’s third eye.  Is Bran dying and now Jon has to come to him and become him?  I believe that this will take place after the final battle and we will see Jon walk away from it all.  He will find Bran’s cave and a new batch of the Children of the Forest perhaps and a weirwood with Bran’s current face.  The evil will have been sealed away again but a new guardian will be needed to watch over the world and the cycle continues.

 

But where would Bran’s cave be?  I believe the books have already foreshadowed it:

 

“You can’t be the Lord of Winterfell, you’re bastard-born, he heard Robb say again. And the stone kings were growling at him with granite tongues. You do not belong here. This is not your place. When Jon closed his eyes he saw the heart tree, with its pale limbs, red leaves, and solemn face. The weirwood was the heart of Winterfell, Lord Eddard always said . . . but to save the castle Jon would have to tear that heart up by its ancient roots, and feed it to the red woman’s hungry fire god. I have no right, he thought. Winterfell belongs to the old gods.”

 

Note:  I believe Bran did it again.  He hid out where no one thought to look for him; in the crypt of Winterfell.  I believe that the weirwood tree face that is in the Winterfell godswood belongs to Bran!  When Bran gave Jon the vision and touched him he saw the Bran that he knew now just like when we saw Bran and the 3-eyed crow we saw the versions of themselves that they wanted us to see.  Thus the reason why Jon or no one else including Bran don’t recognize the face carved on the weirwood tree in the Winterfell godswood.  I believe that this is the mystery of what lies in the deepest part of the crypts of Winterfell.  BRAN HIMSELF!!!

 

http://imgur.com/a/IlSYk

 

“The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again.”

 

I believe this sums up perfectly what is also happening in ASOIAF!

 

I posted this here because the moderators on this site reject every topic I author.

[Meera of Tarth]

So Bran is going to become a tree and Jon a greenseer?

[b00gieman]

1 hour ago, Meera of Tarth said:

So Bran is going to become a tree and Jon a greenseer?

I am just telling you what the source material said and my interpretation of it.