Why Starks would marry Tullys

[Marada78]

It may seem a strange topic, but this just occured to me seeing to what extent the North was out of Stark control. Normally if you marry outside of your domain is because you are seeking alliance for expansion or better borders control, meaning you think you have your currents lands 100% under control. That is not the case of the Starks. Marrying Tullys was not a correct political decision given the results. They should have known better than us viewing or reading from outside and so they should have decided to marry a Bolton or an Umber to consolidate internal power.

What do you think?

[Macgregor of the North]

It was the right decision at that time.

It was about alliances with the South at that time before and during RR.

The Baratheons, Starks, Tullys and Arryns were forming an alliance of power and a marriage seals that best usually.

[Lord Wraith]

10 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

It was the right decision at that time.

It was about alliances with the South at that time before and during RR.

The Baratheons, Starks, Tullys and Arryns were forming an alliance of power and a marriage seals that best usually.

Yup it was all about "Southern Ambitions." We see Lord Paramounts marry outside their realm but its rare to see them marry another into the family of another Lord Paramount.

[RedShirt47]

1 hour ago, Marada78 said:

they should have decided to marry a Bolton or an Umber to consolidate internal power.

You only consolidate power when such power is waning or weak. the Starks had cultivating their power in the North for thousands of years. And it is quite evident that they did so successfully. The only House in the North that holds any ill will to the Starks is the Boltons. It is quite clear that the other houses will come together to root out the Boltons and reinstate Stark rule.

I do think there is something to the Southron Ambitions.theory, although I don't think Rickard was planning rebellion or a regime change. I think he wanted the North to have more influence at the court in King's Landing.
The North was seen (and still is really) as a back water, uncultured, minor province. So I think Rickard wanted to integrate the North more fully into the culture of the South. He fostered Ned to The Vale. Promised Lyanna to Robert and Brandon to Catelyn. He attended the Tourney of Harrenhal (not sure how often Northerners competed in such). He was reaching out. I think this was a long term plan that within a few generations with Stark family in various southron regions that the North would be somewhere Lynesse Hightower could be happy to live in.

[Rippounet]

The Umbers are a very loyal house. As for the Boltons, they are, on the contrary, so disloyal (from a historical perspective at least), that a marriage would likely not solve issues.

 

[Lost Time]

It's very likely that Ned would have been married off to a Northern house if the rebellion never happened and his brother wasn't dead. The North already loves the Starks so consolidating power wasn't as necessary as creating alliances with the South. Lord Rickard's strategy worked out pretty well all things considering. The North had the proper alliances needed to win Robert's Rebellion and could have won the war of 5 Kings if Robb had stuck to the plan of marrying a Frey (yet another Southern alliance).

[daccu65]

It could be a big mistake to marry a disloyal house for a couple of reasons.  First, you've just 'rewarded' that house its disloyalty.  Secondly, and largest, you've just given that house a link to yours.  Should your house run short of heirs in the future, that disloyal house could use the links you gave them to make a somewhat legitimate claim on your seat.  Isn't this why the three main rebelling houses during RR chose Robert to be the next king?  He had a Targ ancestor. 

That said, I am surprised that Ned didn't try to arrange Benjen to marry into the Umber, Mormont, Manderly or another loyal northern house...rather than go to the wall.  I'm hoping that we'll get an explanation as to why Benjan took the black in the last two books.

 

[John Doe]

4 hours ago, RedShirt47 said:

The only House in the North that holds any ill will to the Starks is the Boltons.

You have the Boltons, Umbers (remember Greatjon threatening to march his men home if he doesn't get to lead the van?), the Rhyswells, the Dustins, and the Karstarks. All very disloyal. Of course during Rickard's time only Roose Bolton was disloyal of the lords we know of, but that doesn't rule betrayal out by lords we don't know from that time, especially considering GRRM's quote that the North is prone to rebellion. 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

6 hours ago, Marada78 said:

It may seem a strange topic, but this just occured to me seeing to what extent the North was out of Stark control. Normally if you marry outside of your domain is because you are seeking alliance for expansion or better borders control, meaning you think you have your currents lands 100% under control.

That's pretty much the first time I hear of this rule. Marrying the nearest neighbor seems perfectly reasonable to me.

[Bael's Bastard]

7 hours ago, Marada78 said:

It may seem a strange topic, but this just occured to me seeing to what extent the North was out of Stark control. Normally if you marry outside of your domain is because you are seeking alliance for expansion or better borders control, meaning you think you have your currents lands 100% under control. That is not the case of the Starks. Marrying Tullys was not a correct political decision given the results. They should have known better than us viewing or reading from outside and so they should have decided to marry a Bolton or an Umber to consolidate internal power.

What do you think?

Ned Stark and Jon Arryn married Catelyn and Lysa Tully in order to bring the Tullys into the war on their side. Prior to that, though Catelyn had been betrothed to Brandon Stark, Hoster Tully does not appear to have had any intention of entering the war on the side of the rebels. It was a necessary political decision at the time by Ned and Jon, like Robb's arrangement with the Freys.

As for why Rickard Stark betrothed Brandon to Catelyn in the first place, I think it was part of his "southron ambitions." Some see the friendships and betrothals Rickard developed as intended to protect against the Targaryens, but I do not think that was his intent at the time. I think they were all intended to get him close to, and eventually see his descendants on, the Iron Throne. 

Prior to the marriage of Rhaegar and Elia Martell, the last non-Targaryens to be betrothed to Targaryen heirs were the daughter of Lyonel Baratheon, Celia Tully, and Olenna Redwyne. Lyonel's daughter would have been Prince Duncan's queen had he not broken the betrothal to marry Jenny of Oldstones. Celia Tully would have been Jaehaerys' queen had he not run off and married his sister Shaera.

Rickard ultimately made betrothals with those same two families, betrothing his son and heir to the eldest Tully daughter, and betrothing his daughter to Lord Baratheon (or the future Lord Baratheon in the event that the betrothal was made during Steffon's lifetime). Fostering Ned with Jon Arryn at age nine allowed him to become great friends with Robert Baratheon, which seems to have aided the betrothal between Robert and Lyanna.

Children of Robert and Lyanna would have warranted serious consideration to marry with Targaryens, whether with Aerys' other children or with Rhaegar's. And children of Brandon and Catelyn would have had appeal in the south, perhaps even directly with the royal family. I can see how Rickard might have envisioned that he could have a grandchild or great-grandchild on the Iron Throne.

[Kaibaman]

Well it seems to me like the most obvious reason was because Hoster was the deciding factor in the rebellion. Ned, Jon and Robert needed Tully swords to make a difference in their rebellion. Had Hoster joined the loyalists or just stayed out completely, the rebels would have been completely outnumbered. From the onset of the rebellion I think most people had expected Hoster to stay loyal to the Targs mostly because he didn't have much of a stake joining the rebels (besides Brandon's execution) and was expected to fight for the Targs because they were great patrons to his family. After all the Tullys prospered greatly under the Targaryen dynasty and owed them big time for their status and power as Lord Paramounts of the Trident for the past three centuries. Not to mention a good number of Riverland houses were more loyal to their king than their leigh lord because of the Targaryens past contributions to them and their province (Hoster even had to bring the hammer down hard on many Targ loyalists in his lands). So basically the rebels needed a huge hook to bring Hoster onto their side and fortunately for them he was ambitious than he was honorable. Enough so to burn all bridges with his family's ancient benefactors.

[Good Guy Garlan]

There's really no golden rule for keeping all your bannermen loyal. Look at the Tyrells: intermarried with the most powerful Houses of the Reach, and yet the Florents rebelled against them along with a couple of Reach Houses like the Fossoways, the Hightowers are playing it neutral, the Merryweathers are being shady, and the Golden Company apparently has friends there. 

I'm of the opinion that marrying a powerful family outside of your region actually strengthens your power, since you'd presumably have more help in case you need to face a rebellious bannerman. 

[The Bear]

I think it's as simple as Rickon wanting more sway in King's Landing prior to the war. I really do agree with 'southron ambitions', it seems to fit.

When the rebellion happened, I think it also became about getting the Tully army onside, since they had so many soldiers. I think fostering relationships with other regions helps boost your power. When you need to consolidate, it helps enormously to have numbers.

[Gamel]

You seem to forget that the Starks, like all the other noble houses in Westeros, expect marriages with Houses of equivalent standing. Which means : one of the other 7 families (8 if you count the Targs). It's a matter of prestige, something important in medieval societies.

Of course it's not always doable, because you need princesses with the adequate age available at the right moment, and the necessities of war sometimes force you to marry under your standing (Robb Stark and his mother clearly despised the Freys, an inferior house who dared bargain the passage).

[David Selig]

 

Quote

You seem to forget that the Starks, like all the other noble houses in Westeros, expect marriages with Houses of equivalent standing.

 

Not really. Based on what we know, the lords of the Paramount Houses usually marry women from the their vassal Houses, not from the other Paramount Houses.

[Bael's Bastard]

44 minutes ago, Gamel said:

You seem to forget that the Starks, like all the other noble houses in Westeros, expect marriages with Houses of equivalent standing. Which means : one of the other 7 families (8 if you count the Targs). It's a matter of prestige, something important in medieval societies.

What makes you say that?

The Stark family tree in the World Book goes back to Benjen Stark, grandfather of Cregan Stark. So about two full centuries. The marriage between Eddard Stark and Catelyn Tully is the only marriage shown between a Stark and one of the major houses (Arryn, Baratheon, Lannister, Martell, Targaryen, Tully, Tyrell).

Had things gone as plan there likely would have been multiple marriages between Starks and major houses (Brandon and Catelyn Tully, Lyanna and Robert Baratheon, perhaps even something along the lines of Ned and Ashara Dayne). But prior to that it does not seem to be an expectation of the Starks to marry with major houses outside of the north.

You see a couple Blackwood wives, a Royce wife or two, you hear about a daughter being married off to a Royce, a daughter being married off to a Rogers (apparently a house in the Storm Lands), but not much to support the idea that the Starks were in the routine of marrying with the major houses which ruled regions outside of the north.

Now, we are not shown who all the Stark daughters in the family tree married. It is certainly possible that some married with those major houses. But I wouldn't say there is a strong basis to say that the Starks expected marriages with houses of equivalent standing. Stark lords and heirs in the last two centuries seemed to stick mostly with marriages with houses sworn to House Stark.

[Gamel]

Because that's the way it used to work with royal dynasties in Europe. Kings usually married princesses from other ruling dynasties, Habsburgs with Bourbons for instance. Same thing with lower level titles like dukes.
Nowadays royal dynasties marry lowborns (like in England or in Spain). Different world.

I'm no specialist with the Northern background in ASOIAF, but the distance with the rest of Westeros plays a role. King's Landing <-> Winterfell takes something like 4-6 months by foot. The North feels safe by itself, so no need for outside allies. Invading it would be a folly, like Dorne. Plus the seclusion seems to be cultural, see how Ned went back to WF after the Rebellion and did not want to play power games at the court. Brandon Stark was bethroted to Catelyn Tully well before Ned though, so things were changing in that regard.

So yes you're right that the North didn't marry outside in the past, but the North has different values in regards to prestige and court customs, of what you should do and what you shouldn't do as a noble. No knights for instance. It's almost a kingdom by itself.

There is also the different religion (Old Gods vs Faith of the Seven). Even though Westeros seems to be somehow tolerant of other beliefs, we know it hasn't always been the case (the resurrected Faith Militant proves it).

[estermonty python]

54 minutes ago, David Selig said:

 

 

Not really. Based on what we know, the lords of the Paramount Houses usually marry women from the their vassal Houses, not from the other Paramount Houses.

Yes.

If you look at the ruling generation from AGOT, that's the only generation intermarried with other ruling houses (stark with tully, arryn with tully, baratheon with lannister, etc).  The previous generation was unanimous in marrying either a woman from their most powerful vassal (Jon Arryn's first wife was a Royce, Hoster Tully married a Whent,* and Luthor Tyrell married a Redwyne), or a cousin from a cadet branch of their own house (Rickard Stark married another Stark, and Tywin married Joanna Lannister).  The one exception is Steffon Baratheon marrying an Estermont, but I still think the Estermonts are Baratheon cousins :-)

*at the time of their marriage the Whents were the Tully's most powerful vassal, or so the text says.

 

[dariopatke]

Well, Southron ambitions. And unlike other Wardens, Rickard could do this without worrying about his bannermen. North was really unified in RR, they had no Darry, Corbrays, Conningtons,... There was no need for it because Boltons seemed to be loyal bannermen, in fact Roose fought with Ned at Trident. From rebel Kingdoms only West was unified and only because they feared they will be Castamered if they disobey Tywin.

 

[JonCon's Red Beard]

The Tullys were their closest Southern neighbours and winter was coming. Probably the same reason why Ned was fostered at the Vale. I don't think there was some "secret Southern ambition" except Rickard wanting to provide for his people during the Winter. The whole "Souther Ambition" was, imo, nothing but Brandon's excuse to justify the fact he kept banging Barbrey Dustin despite he was going to marry Cat. "Hey, it's not me! My ambitious father is forcing me!".