Greywater-Watch Posted January 29, 2017 Share Posted January 29, 2017 Incest in ASOIAF is linked to insanity, madness (Targaryens, Cersei/Jamie). Why would GRRM let this flaw extend to the Starks? And from the characters Jon and Arya it is so far stretched to think of that (all details have been mentioned in this thread) - a sexual relation between Jon and Arya is the very last thing I would think of (as far stretched as Jon using Arya as Nissa Nissa). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a black swan Posted January 29, 2017 Share Posted January 29, 2017 3 hours ago, St Daga said: Jon and Arya had a very interesting conversation in aGoT where he comments "girls get the arms but not the swords. Bastards get the swords but not the arms. I did not make the rules, little sister." Arya I-aGoT I think that Jon and Arya will need to carry on the blood of House Stark, with her name and his bastard sword. Yes, I am wearing a tinfoil hat here, and I know it, but this conversation means something to the end game. Unless we truly do see a white wolf grace the banner of house stark, and not a grey one. Or maybe they will marry their sigils, and we will get a grey wolf and a white wolf, similar to Joffrey Baratheon's lion and stag sigil. Great response, thanks for sharing! I loved that conversation that Jon has with Arya about creating a new sigil and combining two houses. But Jon's earlier comment... "The Lannisters are proud," Jon observed. "You'd think the royal sigil would be sufficient, but no. He makes his mother's House equal in honor to the king's." Something Arya would do judging by her response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Daga Posted January 29, 2017 Share Posted January 29, 2017 4 hours ago, Greywater-Watch said: Incest in ASOIAF is linked to insanity, madness (Targaryens, Cersei/Jamie). Why would GRRM let this flaw extend to the Starks? Actually, I don't think that incest is linked to insanity and madness, but the Targaryen blood is. The phrase about the Gods flipping a coin when it comes to Targaryen madness could be related to their Dragon blood or Dragon dreams, and have nothing to do with incest, except incest certainly narrows the genes available in the pool. I think the story will prove that in the end, but I am not going to argue the point. Time will tell! Looking at the Lannister twins incest and their offspring to argue the insanity link, Jaime and Cersei had three children, and while it's not a big sample size, it's what we have from them. Joffrey is a complete a$$hole, but Myrcella and Tommen seem like decent, kind children. I think that Joffrey is a sociopath, but so it Cersei and Tywin, while Jaime is not. I think he inherited that gene, and that is why he is the way he is, although incest makes those types of genes pop up more often. If Tommen or Myrcella had a chance to rule, we might find they could be decent at it. Another example of family incest in our story is Craster's wives/daughters. Would you say that Gilly is insane or mad? I wouldn't. I would say she is uneducated but that doesn't make her stupid or inferior, it just means she hasn't been exposed to much of the world. We did not see madness or insanity in those women at Craster's: certainly we seen some unhappiness, and who could blame them. Forced to marry their father generation after generation and to have all their son's taken from them would be a hard way to live, but those women didn't show signs of insanity. And we don't really see any developmental problems in her child she had by Craster, although he may be too young for behaviors to pop up, he certainly does not display any physical limitations that have been outlined by the text! I have not always been so liberal in my thinking on this subject, but several years ago, I decided to treat this story for what it is, a fiction set in a fantasy world, and therefore I needed to set aside my real world ideas and enjoy the story that GRRM was telling us, not judge it based on our real world prejudices. In this world of ASOIAF, who decided that cousin marriages are okay but sibling marriages are not? In our world, cousin marriage in frowned on in one country and supported in others? Who decides? In the world of ASOIAF it is the Maesters, or the teaching of the Andals who seem to frown on incest, but we really have no idea of how the First Men or the Children of the Forest feel about it. GRRM seems to show there is a valid time for it to be appropriate. For every person who is shipping Dany and Jon, I see the same family connections, whether they are brother/sister or aunt/nephew. Now I don't personally ship Dany/Jon but I see that it is possible based on the text. Much is possible based on the text because it is written in a very ambiguous manner. I also don't necessarily believe that RLJ is going to turn out to be the case. Another incident of time will tell and there is no sense arguing about it. 2 hours ago, DutchArya said: Great response, thanks for sharing! I loved that conversation that Jon has with Arya about creating a new sigil and combining two houses. But Jon's earlier comment... "The Lannisters are proud," Jon observed. "You'd think the royal sigil would be sufficient, but no. He makes his mother's House equal in honor to the king's." Something Arya would do judging by her response. Thanks. There is much interesting dialogue between Jon and Arya in just a few short pages. I suppose it had to be meaningful because they end up separated for so long. I really can only speculate what GRRM has in store for his characters, but I don't think he says much that does not have some meaning to the end game when it comes to the Starks. I also think that we will see a repeat of Bran and Jon and the "don't look away" comment from the first chapter! And I think it could be very painful for the reader! :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormourne Posted August 8, 2017 Author Share Posted August 8, 2017 *Bump* Don't mind me. I just want to see howmany views this has gotten Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisdaw Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 I wonder when he doesn't muss her hair or call her little sister if the believers will lose heart? I expect not, the calls will be that he doesn't see her as his little sister anymore but as a woman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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