Why Jon/Arya could work in the Books. I'll explain in a quick Essay!

[Stormourne]

Guys, people have been arguing for years that Jon and Arya could develop feelings for one another that is not just familial. Yet, no one seems to talk about the why and the how. For me, who has been the staunchest supporter for them both, I really do hope GrrM does fulfill his original outline in terms of their relationship. When I read through the first five books, I never thought of them in terms of shipping - but from the first few chapters of AGoT, I knew their sibling bond was so strong, it made me envious. I absolutely loved the bond they shared, and continue to share - I know the Mercy chapter didn't include any reminiscing (of Jon) like her other chapters, but I'll get to that in a minute.

First off, why are people assuming that a relationship between Jon and Arya would be one that is healthy? Or at least one that develops normally. Both characters have experienced tragedy, loss and despair. Arya most likely has some form of PTSD, and George has said that she is like that of a child soldier in Africa. That is the reason why she is able to push her 'Arya' personality so deep within herself. As we've seen in Mercy, however, Arya is still there. She is disconnected, though, from her emotions. We see this when she kills Raff - afterwards, she does not feel joy or sadness, no, she just frowns over the fact that she'd now need to drag his body down the flights of stairs.

Jon, on the other hand, was murdered because he choose to break his Oath to the Night's Watch and march an army of Wildlings south against the Boltons. The deciding factor for his decision was finding out that Arya Stark (Fake-Arya) had escaped the clutches of the Boltons and that Ramsay was after her - Also, keep in mind that Jon at the time was aware that Ramsay had flayed the six spearwives and made cloaks of their skins for Mance to wear (that's what the letter said). He genuinely feared for his little sister's life and thus took action under the pretense that because Ramsay had sworn to rip out his bastard heart, he had to take the fight to him. Or at least that's how I viewed it. Here is the moment that Jon decided to break his oath:

Jon flexed the fingers of his sword hand. The Night’s Watch takes no part. He closed his fist and opened it again. What you propose is nothing less than treason. He thought of Robb, with snowflakes melting in his hair.Kill the boy and let the man be born. He thought of Bran, clambering up a tower wall, agile as a monkey. Of Rickon’s breathless laughter. Of Sansa, brushing out Lady’s coat and singing to herself. You know nothing, Jon Snow. He thought of Arya, her hair as tangled as a bird’s nest. I made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell … I want my bride back … I want my bride back … I want my bride back …

Notice that Jon repeats "I want my bride back," three times. That is George emphasizing that fact. Fake-Arya is on the run, and is hunted by the man who "made [Mance] a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell." Jon chose to set aside his vow in order to save Arya by fighting against Ramsay. This, in and of itself, does not underline any romantic feelings in Jon for her, not yet. Bear with me a moment. Jon is then stabbed by his subordinates and left to bleed out in the snow. He dies. And when he is brought back, this is where the deciding factor will lie in regards to a Jon/Arya relationship. Jon died with Arya in mind - his last thoughts were:

Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger’s hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. “Ghost,” he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end. When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold …

Stick them with the pointy end... That sentence is telling, I think. Jon thinks back to the moment he gave her Needle, which Arya herself couldn't throw away. Where Jon can't let Arya go, neither can she let him go, thus Arya will never be able to be No One. That's besides the point, though. Jon dies literally with her in mind. And when is does get resurrected (I'm 100% certain now), he might awake in that dark room with an obsession to protect Arya Stark, and his family. Does it matter that it was a Fake-Arya? No, because he died with his 'Arya' in mind.

So both characters have experienced death in a way. Jon physically, and Arya emotionally. That's a nice parallel that is another, albeit ambiguous hint at a Jon/Arya pairing in the future. I've established that they've both experienced tragedy, true tragedy. And that is what will bring them together when or if they reunite. I think it will be important for them to meet up first, as they will also bond over the loss of all their other siblings (even though they are still alive, save Robb).

Nymeria and Ghost could also play a role in a future Jon/Arya relationship, insofar as if both direwolves mate with one another (keep in mind that the direwolves are like mirrors of their respective humans). Ghost is sombre and silent like Jon, Nymeria is rash and strong-willed - we see this with her amassing a large number of wolves and attacking humans. If the direwolves took on the traits of their humans from early on, could they still be influenced by them in the present? If so, perhaps they will have offspring, partly because they are confused and in emotional despair like their human counterparts. For Arya, though, she isn't in pain so much as the emotional pain has already been so great that she has become almost emotionless at this point (in the Mercy POV). All the emotions she does show is just an act, nothing more than a play to fool those around her.

Anyway, as I've mentioned before, I think it is important for them to reunite first, as this will help develop any feelings that are not familial. In each other's presence they could find solace and reprieve from emotional distress. For Arya, I think Jon is the one character that can truly pull her back from the darkness, the abyss. After they do reunite (here's hoping) I think it would take a while for their relationship to transition from sibling to romantic, insofar as they would obviously be aware of the social stigma attached to Incest. And that's the beauty of such a situation. They know it's wrong, we know it's wrong, yet how can what they feel be wrong. The novels could end in them not even pursuing said feelings. George did state that the ending would be bitter-sweet. Arya could be Nissa Nissa reincarnate, and Jon Azor Ahai reborn. Jon might have to sacrifice her for the greater good, and the readers knowing that they have incestuous feelings for one another (even though they never acted on it) would make the situation even more tragic. Tragic in a sense that they've fallen in love, and were also torn apart from forces outside their control.

There are endless possibilities with this ship (many more than what I've mentioned). Don't just push it aside because incest makes you feel uncomfortable. I mean, Jon and Arya do know what incest is... they would obviously share similar feelings with you. They did both grow up together, as brother and sister. You don't just forget that. But what if despite that, they do fall in love? It would be interesting to explore. - I am a realist, though, and I know that George most likely gave the Jon/Arya romance from the original plot to Jamie/Cersei in order to make them more grey.

I'll end this post (more a essay) with some lines with our favorite Maester in the Seven Kingdoms... "What is honor compared to a woman's love? What is duty against the feel of a newborn son in your arms ... We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy."

My reaction after Season 6, episode 2

*One realm! One god! One ship!*

Jon Snow is Alive!

*One realm! One god! One ship!*

Jon Stark is Alive!

*One realm! One god! One ship!*

Jon Targaryen is Alive!!!

If you haven't already realized, I am the most hardcore Jon/Arya shipper out there!

Peace.

[Pixnik]

I've said it before but Jon and Arya have the most purest love in the whole series. Arya always knows deep down that Jon will always take her as she is no matter what she has done. She had doubts that her own mother and Robb will ransom her because she is dirty and has done bad thing but has no doubts whatsoever with Jon.

Most people dont see it or want to see it because they was raised as brother and sister but its there from the get go.

[daccu65]

While I don't want to see a Jon/Arya pairing, I would very much like to see a close brother/sister bond reformed even with Arya married. 

To be honest, up until the Red Wedding, I was hoping the series would end with Jon and Robb sitting on the wall, with Jon as the Lord Commander and Robb as the Warden of the North.  The two would be discussing their lives since they parted, with the hardships, moral sacrifices and complications they had encountered.  In particular, I wanted Jon to have someone to discuss his relationship with Ygritte; to help deal with the guilt he is still feeling.  At the end, Jon would urge Robb to get back to Winterfell and 'make some more Starks."

Maybe it can end this way, but with Jon and Arya.  Both have experienced trying times and both can offer the other emotional support.  In the end, Jon takes up his role as a guardian and urges Arya to return to Winterfell and enjoy the fruits of the sacrifice he is making. 

Maybe I'm to conventional to enjoy an incestuous shipping, even if it's cousins and not siblings.  Still, the idea of Arya and Jon reforming a close, sibling affection as adults is something I am hoping to see.

 

[Pixnik]

57 minutes ago, daccu65 said:

 

Maybe I'm to conventional to enjoy an incestuous shipping, even if it's cousins and not siblings.  Still, the idea of Arya and Jon reforming a close, sibling affection as adults is something I am hoping to see.

 

The whole series is based on incestuous shipping with the Targ dynasty. At first I didnt see Jon and Arya as endgame but on rereads and I got past the ick factor and see it from their eyes I can accept. 

[TheWalker77]

Ever since I first read AGOT, I always thought that man Jon and Arya sure have a good relationship, they think about the other constantly I always smile whenever I read that parts. Jon and Arya love each other deeply, one of a few in this giant story. They never seem to be able to let go of the other. I think for Arya, Jon is home and vice versa. They like fuel to keep moving forward. But at this point, I think we lucky enough if Jon and Arya have a proper reunion with hugs and tears, for him to muss her hair, that would be enough for me. I also think, this relationship is destine to doom, they will have a bitter sweet ending for sure. either one of them die in front of his/her eyes and the other live or separate in the end.  

5 hours ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

 

There are endless possibilities with this ship (many more than what I've mentioned). Don't just push it aside because incest makes you feel uncomfortable. I mean, Jon and Arya do know what incest is... they would obviously share similar feelings with you. They did both grow up together, as brother and sister. You don't just forget that. But what if despite that, they do fall in love? It would be interesting to explore. - I am a realist, though, and I know that George most likely gave the Jon/Arya romance from the original plot to Jamie/Cersei in order to make them more grey.

 

Not really though, GRRM wrote the original draft after he finished 13 first chapters of AGOT, James/ Cercei already happened at that point, their relationship is the start of  the War of 5 Kings madness when Jaime pushed Bran out the window.

[Stormourne]

6 hours ago, TheWalker77 said:

 

Not really though, GRRM wrote the original draft after he finished 13 first chapters of AGOT, James/ Cercei already happened at that point, their relationship is the start of  the War of 5 Kings madness when Jaime pushed Bran out the window.

I had completely forgotten about that. Though, did he specifically state that on the those initial chapters that Jamie and Cersei had an incestuous relationship? Because I can't think of another reason as to why he'd scrap Arya/Jon... Well, he did plan a five-year time skip in order to age them up. Perhaps the age factors forced him to get rid of a relationship between the two? Who knows. I'd like it to happen, but in a realistic sense. I Dont think such a relationship could ever develop naturally between the two. Which is why I wrote in the essay about their traumatic experiences and how they could develop feelings born from the grief they've endured.

Would the whole Nissa Nissa and Azor Ahai thing work in their case? It would break my heart if Arya is sent to assassinate him, and Jon, in defending himself, stabs Arya with Longclaw, thus fulfilling the prophecy and creating Lightbringer... How tragic would that reunion be.

 

[Stormourne]

6 hours ago, Pixnik said:

The whole series is based on incestuous shipping with the Targ dynasty. At first I didnt see Jon and Arya as endgame but on rereads and I got past the ick factor and see it from their eyes I can accept. 

I know right. Before reading Asoiaf, I never paid much attention to incest in general. And when I read through the five books, I never thought of then in terms of romance. I was envious of their strong sibling bond.

Do you think, as I've said in the essay, that Arya/Jon could work if it's done right. Under normal circumstances, I don't think they would ever fall I'm love. But the events they experienced, the trauma, might be the thing that brings them together. And at some point, their sibling relationship turns immoral, incestuous. I don't even think the current Arya knows what love is anymore. Jon might be what she needs on refinding that emotion. Perhaps it will be Arya Whyalla in love first, and stubbornly pursues it until Jon realises his own feelings? Who knows.

[zandru]

I, too, like the idea of Jon and Arya re-uniting. This "incest" thing - as far as we know, they're cousins. This would be "incest" in 20th century USA (and apologies for bringing up my locality; I know y'all hate this), but a degree off from brother-sister marriage, which in itself is a little less incestuous than a half-brother/half-sister relationship. And remember, the Targaryens did a lot of this, with little complaint from Westerosi - and Jon is most likely a "Targ".

Also, the idea that two people who are raised together (and let's ignore the biology) should never be allowed to form romantic feelings toward one another - why?

Now, going toward the realm of wishful thinking, Jon has some major wars ahead of him. Re-taking Winterfell, and rescuing - er, the steward's daughter. Regaining the North from the Boltons. Fighting the Others/White Walkers as they come southward towards the Wall. And there will likely be some gratuituous interference from the Lannister-held Iron Throne. Jon needs to collect an army. He's got a lot of free folk who would follow him, given how his quests affect them and maybe even some gratitude that, unlike all the other Night Watch commanders, he didn't just try to exterminate them all. The North is likely to follow a Stark (and face it, Sansa is no longer a "Stark"; she's either a "Lannister" or a bastard "Littlefinger"). Jon is the only adult Stark still standing.

These Jon-led military actions could attract the attention of Little Sister. They might also bring Sandor Clegane out of retirement. Wishful thinking, I know, but maybe more likely than "Clegane Bowl".

[Pixnik]

23 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

I know right. Before reading Asoiaf, I never paid much attention to incest in general. And when I read through the five books, I never thought of then in terms of romance. I was envious of their strong sibling bond.

Do you think, as I've said in the essay, that Arya/Jon could work if it's done right. Under normal circumstances, I don't think they would ever fall I'm love. But the events they experienced, the trauma, might be the thing that brings them together. And at some point, their sibling relationship turns immoral, incestuous. I don't even think the current Arya knows what love is anymore. Jon might be what she needs on refinding that emotion. Perhaps it will be Arya Whyalla in love first, and stubbornly pursues it until Jon realises his own feelings? Who knows.

Im one of those that think that Jon isnt dead. He will have a coma dream much like Bran did and have his eyes opened in more ways then one. I also think Ghost and Nymeria will connect first and I believe that will change the state of how Jon thinks of Arya and vice versa.

Yes I think it will work. Jon is attracted to lethal women and what is Arya but a budding lethal young lady? Jon will make Arya feel safe and part of a pack. He is what she has been searching for.  She hasn't lost herself. She knows who she is and that is a Lady Justice..

I am the youngest of a very large family and I have never felt as close to any of my siblings as these two. I think that helped me look closer what is between them, 

[Scorpion92]

Yeah, I do not see them romantically involved, but their bond is the strongest among Stark children. If Arya wants to remember who she is, Jon is the strongest thing she has that can remind her. If Jon wants to remember his "human" side after resurrection, she is the one that can bring it out.

But no need for romantic relationship please. Frankly, I think after all the fighting is done Jon will retire to Isle of Faces where his brother Bran is located and pass away, with his soul absorbed to weirwood, kinda like King Arthur and Avalon. There will be no purpose for either him or Dany in peacetime. 

[Melisandre's White Pubes]

It's definitely possible, especially since we don't really know much about Jon's sexual predilections.  The only sexual relationship he was a part of was under duress, when he was trying to fit in with the Wildlings.  For all we know, Jon may prefer pubescent girls - many ephebophiles are able to maintain sexual relationships with adult women despite their preferences.  This could explain why Jon was still a virgin despite likely having access to females - he may not have been that turned on by the girls at the local brothel.

[Stormourne]

1 hour ago, Scorpion92 said:

Yeah, I do not see them romantically involved, but their bond is the strongest among Stark children. If Arya wants to remember who she is, Jon is the strongest thing she has that can remind her. If Jon wants to remember his "human" side after resurrection, she is the one that can bring it out.

But no need for romantic relationship please. Frankly, I think after all the fighting is done Jon will retire to Isle of Faces where his brother Bran is located and pass away, with his soul absorbed to weirwood, kinda like King Arthur and Avalon. There will be no purpose for either him or Dany in peacetime. 

Right now, they have no romantic feelings for each other, obviously. What could cause them to develop incestuous feelings are the events that unfold after they meet. Arya has lost touch with her emotions. I don't think she knows what love is anymore, aside from being just a tool to use against her enemies. Perhaps when they reunite, just being near him will help those feelings she buried resurface, and sibling love could turn romantic? What I'm arguing (in the essay) is not that they will end up becoming romantically involved, but their is the possibility that could end up being central to the plot, e.g. Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa.

The first paragraph you wrote is correct, insofar they will "heal" each other. But in that healing phrase, they could become so much to each other. Time will tell.

 

 

[Stormourne]

1 hour ago, Melisandre's White Pubes said:

It's definitely possible, especially since we don't really know much about Jon's sexual predilections.  The only sexual relationship he was a part of was under duress, when he was trying to fit in with the Wildlings.  For all we know, Jon may prefer pubescent girls - many ephebophiles are able to maintain sexual relationships with adult women despite their preferences.  This could explain why Jon was still a virgin despite likely having access to females - he may not have been that turned on by the girls at the local brothel.

I think, if Jon does develop romantic and sexual feelings for Arya, it will not be so much sexual predilections as it would be because she is Arya, his Arya, the girl he broke his oath for, and ultimately died for. She just happens to be five years younger than him. I think Arya will have flowered by the time they reunite. And a relationship could only develop afterwards, anyway.

[Scorpion92]

13 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

Right now, they have no romantic feelings for each other, obviously. What could cause them to develop incestuous feelings are the events that unfold after they meet. Arya has lost touch with her emotions. I don't think she knows what love is anymore, aside from being just a tool to use against her enemies. Perhaps when they reunite, just being near him will help those feelings she buried resurface, and sibling love could turn romantic? What I'm arguing (in the essay) is not that they will end up becoming romantically involved, but their is the possibility that could end up being central to the plot, e.g. Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa.

The first paragraph you wrote is correct, insofar they will "heal" each other. But in that healing phrase, they could become so much to each other. Time will tell.

 

 

There is no doubt in my mind that their eventual reunion will be some universal and game changing event. The way I see it, it will be the first Stark sibling reunion, as I am not sure Bran will reveal himself to his siblings at that point and most likely operate in the dark, Rickon will probably die by that point, and Sansa will have her own stuff to deal in the south.

Most importantly, this is all speculation of coyrse, but I think they will meet each other at the very end of the novel at the Battle of the Dawn where Arya's training with Faceless Men taught her that "all men must die" and this pretender who claims to be Jon who last time she heard died at the Wall as Lord Commander of Night's Watch proclaimed himself Jon Stark and King of Winter, leading "ice" side with army of undead. This is exactly kind of threat Arya might be considering worthy of "gift".

I think Arya will skinchange Nymeria and lead super pack into the battle against "ice" forces, but after this game-changing reunion, she might turn sides and attack "fire" force.

This is all speculation, as I said, but super pack and Nymeria is Arya's "super weapon", IMHO, and given her training with Faceless Men, she will view White Walkers and wights as things she needs to give "gift" to. Little she will realize that the man in charge of the enemy is her beloved brother.

And I see that you are a very big fan of seeing their relationship eventually turn into romantic, as many in this forum. Personally, I am not a fan and think that their relationship has potential to be deep and interesting without romance, but I respect and see your point. Not because it is incest or anything like that, because in this universe cousin getting together with a cousin is not a weird thing at all, but because frankly I do not see Jon surviving this series. He will be the biggest transformational figure and force by the end, but he will be needed during the time of chaos, destruction and war, but when there is a spring, he will leave this world. The same with Dany. There just will be no time to show this Jon-Arya relationship turning from platonic sibling love to romantic without me going "Eww!". That is my main point.

And with Martin's pace in the books, I am not sure I will be convinced otherwise. But hey, if he can pull it off, then who am I to say no?

[Nami]

Nope. Leave incest with the Lannisters.

[Stormourne]

22 minutes ago, Nami said:

Nope. Leave incest with the Lannisters.

And Targaryens? I shall. For what is Jon if not the song of ice and fire, Stark and Targaryen? The prince who was promised? Azor Ahai must have a Nissa Nissa, if the legends are to be believed. What better ending to Asoiaf than leaving Jon with an impossible choice. Sacrifice the only girl he has ever truly cared about, above all others, in order to save the realm? ^^

[Pixnik]

50 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

And Targaryens? I shall. For what is Jon if not the song of ice and fire, Stark and Targaryen? The prince who was promised? Azor Ahai must have a Nissa Nissa, if the legends are to be believed. What better ending to Asoiaf than leaving Jon with an impossible choice. Sacrifice the only girl he has ever truly cared about, above all others, in order to save the realm? ^^

The prophecy says Azor Ahai needs to be reborn but I dont recall a Nissa Nissa being needed again 

[Stormourne]

10 minutes ago, Pixnik said:

The prophecy says Azor Ahai needs to be reborn but I dont recall a Nissa Nissa being needed again 

Nissa Nissa needs to be sacrificed in order to create Lightbringer. Do you remember the story of Azor Ahai trying to forge the blade three times? That's what I was talking about.

[Pixnik]

Yes I remember but if Lightbringer is already made then why is Nissa Nissa needed. Lightbringer is Dawn in my mind.

 

[Lord Wraith]

If Arya does in fact become No One, I am sure Jon is the only one to bring back Arya Stark.