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1 hour ago, Calibandar said:

It is too much to ask at this point, given his age, the productivity of people in their 70's, the immensity of what he still needs to write.

I don't know. Whatever age George is, he's fairly robust. And honestly, unless you're a Sanderson type most writer's don't 'work,' as in putting words to page, more than 4 to 5 hours a day. I'd argue that the majority of them don't even do that much [on average] if you then factor for lapses in creativity, writing block, etc. Writing is an exercise of the mind after all, and Martin seems pretty damn sharp to me.

Yeah, he's got his work cut out for him, but barring a serious physical or mental health issue it'll all come down to actual desire. Even if the show is this soul-motivation-sucking entity hanging over his shoulder [and it might not be] it seems clear to me he still wants to finish. Will life let him?

All I can do is hope, I suppose.    

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3 hours ago, JEORDHl said:

The problem with your retrofitting it as such, whether it was a joke or or not, doesn't change the fact that it's a straight up insult, dude. Emperor's clothes, all that. It's why I called it out. 

---

Cal, I don't think you're entirely wrong there per se, but to my mind trying to establish a direct comparison between Kay and Martin is problematic. Writing wise, Kay researches heavily as his historical influences are almost tit for tat, then he writes. Martin does research [though surely not even remotely close to the extent Kay does] then writes. It seems relatively close if you leave it at that, but productivity doesn't end there, at least for Martin right. 

If the thought is that he shouldn't involve himself in anthologies, or manage the Wild Card universe, do screenwriting, attain producer credits [although the extent of his participation on GoT might be arguable, it could just be a credit, cause showbizz] or attending cons, talk shows and other special appearances, or any of the other stuff he chooses to do instead of writing ASoIaF.. then I'd argue that the criticism has left the building in regard to writing ASoIaF and has entered the realm of dictating how the guy should choose to live his life.

Which frankly [not speaking directly to you here, mind] I think is bullshit. 

I don't even know what this means? All I really learned is this place really has no sense of humor, but whatever.

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53 minutes ago, sifth said:

I don't even know what this means? All I really learned is this place really has no sense of humor, but whatever.

The problem with this board is that some people are too sensitive when people criticize Martin, and as soon as something out of the ordinary is stated then suddenly the defense bells alarm and people are ready to sensor, delete, and possibly ban other individuals for stating an opinion. 

Even if that opinion is in jest....

  

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@Calibandar

The problem with the gap simply is that it would have just caused a huge mess. On the one hand there would have been the problem of the jump itself and the fact that a lot of stuff would have happened off-screen. George would have been forced to either cover a lot of stuff in flashback chapters/memories (something we already have happening with all the stuff related to Robert's Rebellion, the reign of Aerys II, and other stuff from the past). This would have slowed down the entire narrative - George wouldn't have been able to just continue the story he would also have been forced to tell us stuff that happened in between. Because we all would have wanted to know. We would have wanted to know what exactly Stannis and Roose did (and what the hell happened that the Boltons didn't just amass a Frey-Bolton-Lannister army to crush Stannis' pitiful band), how it came that Littlefinger got away with Lysa's murder, what the hell happened in KL after Tywin's murder, and what the hell Tyrion did in the meantime. The Jon Snow story in itself might have worked had there been no Stannis at the Wall. Then it could just have been all peace and quiet for the next five years. But even that would have been strange because things weren't exactly all peace and quiet in the first three books at the Wall and in the lands beyond. And there is no good reason imaginable why the Others should have set on their hands all those years or why the wildlings wouldn't have used the time to make another attempt at the Wall.

The idea that the story would essentially just pause for five years makes no sense, either. The War of the Five Kings didn't just pause, either, and while it is believable that certain factions would bide their time for a while five years would be a lot of time for that. Neither the Boltons nor Stannis would wait this long especially not with winter coming. One assumes autumn would have stretched over those five years so that winter would only have begun in the Prologue after the gap but even so - the winter season would still cripple the capability for war in the books after the gap, prompting the question why those people plotting revenge, invasions, attacks etc. didn't do anything important in the last five years.

The 'gap problem' arises in ASoS, not in AFfC/ADwD. Those books are George's way to deal with the mistakes he made in ASoS, most notably setting up Dany, Jon, Arya, Sansa, and Bran for some sort of apprenticeship. Especially the Dany story is problematic because there is no way around her decision to stay in Meereen. Her changing her mind in the first chapter of ADwD wouldn't have worked, it would simply not have been believable.

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1 hour ago, sifth said:

I don't even know what this means? All I really learned is this place really has no sense of humor, but whatever.

 

I'm not trying to be offensive here, but if you need someone to teach you that couching a comment as joke doesn't preclude it being construed as an insult as well, I just... don't know what could be further said on the matter.

 

7 minutes ago, JonisHenryTudor said:

The problem with this board is that some people are too sensitive when people criticize Martin, and as soon as something out of the ordinary is stated then suddenly the defense bells alarm and people are ready to sensor, delete, and possibly ban other individuals for stating an opinion. 

Even if that opinion is in jest....

  

A generalization coupled with an inability to filter context and nuance. I'm sensing a lack of life experience between you two.

---

And now I got a case of the Sisyphean feels going on. Course, if I had a sense of humor it wouldn't even bother me... lulz

I'm done with this particular current of thread drift.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

@Calibandar

The problem with the gap simply is that it would have just caused a huge mess. On the one hand there would have been the problem of the jump itself and the fact that a lot of stuff would have happened off-screen. George would have been forced to either cover a lot of stuff in flashback chapters/memories (something we already have happening with all the stuff related to Robert's Rebellion, the reign of Aerys II, and other stuff from the past). This would have slowed down the entire narrative - George wouldn't have been able to just continue the story he would also have been forced to tell us stuff that happened in between. Because we all would have wanted to know. We would have wanted to know what exactly Stannis and Roose did (and what the hell happened that the Boltons didn't just amass a Frey-Bolton-Lannister army to crush Stannis' pitiful band), how it came that Littlefinger got away with Lysa's murder, what the hell happened in KL after Tywin's murder, and what the hell Tyrion did in the meantime. The Jon Snow story in itself might have worked had there been no Stannis at the Wall. Then it could just have been all peace and quiet for the next five years. But even that would have been strange because things weren't exactly all peace and quiet in the first three books at the Wall and in the lands beyond. And there is no good reason imaginable why the Others should have set on their hands all those years or why the wildlings wouldn't have used the time to make another attempt at the Wall.

The idea that the story would essentially just pause for five years makes no sense, either. The War of the Five Kings didn't just pause, either, and while it is believable that certain factions would bide their time for a while five years would be a lot of time for that. Neither the Boltons nor Stannis would wait this long especially not with winter coming. One assumes autumn would have stretched over those five years so that winter would only have begun in the Prologue after the gap but even so - the winter season would still cripple the capability for war in the books after the gap, prompting the question why those people plotting revenge, invasions, attacks etc. didn't do anything important in the last five years.

The 'gap problem' arises in ASoS, not in AFfC/ADwD. Those books are George's way to deal with the mistakes he made in ASoS, most notably setting up Dany, Jon, Arya, Sansa, and Bran for some sort of apprenticeship. Especially the Dany story is problematic because there is no way around her decision to stay in Meereen. Her changing her mind in the first chapter of ADwD wouldn't have worked, it would simply not have been believable.

 

The problem is GRRM put himself in a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation at the end of the third book. While just about everything you said is true about the gap causing problems, not using the gap that was set up at the end of the book caused a new set of problems. Such as Tyrion's travel log chapters where he spends a lot of time just looking at turtles and water ways. Brienne riding in circles trying to find Sansa and failing each time is another problem the lack of a the gap caused. The biggest and sadly the one that's not ending any time soon is Sansa, Arya and Bran's training. I get that it's interesting to see how the Stark children are slowly becoming very different because of their training, but in a way it's delayed the story as a whole. In place of having a fast paced story we need to have a slower paced one so Arya can slowly become No One, so that Sasna can become lady Littlefinger and so on.

 

The worst victim of this slow pace was Sam. The guy spent nearly all of AFFC's on a boat doing nothing, except getting laid. Don't get me wrong Sam had a few good moments, like Maester Aemon's eulogy and his last chapter when he FINALLY got off the boat, was really awesome as well. For the most part his story really did feel like filler though.

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6 minutes ago, JEORDHl said:

 

I'm not trying to be offensive here, but if you need someone to teach you that couching a comment as joke doesn't preclude it being construed as an insult as well, I just... don't know what could be further said on the matter.

 

A generalization coupled with an inability to filter context and nuance. I'm sensing a lack of life experience between you two.

---

And now I got a case of the Sisyphean feels going on. Course, if I had a sense of humor it wouldn't even bother me... lulz

I'm done with this particular current of thread drift.

I am making a broad claim based on reactions by some posters on this board.  Life experience? What does that have to do with anything? You make a lot of assumptions. 

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8 minutes ago, JEORDHl said:

 

I'm not trying to be offensive here, but if you need someone to teach you that couching a comment as joke doesn't preclude it being construed as an insult as well, I just... don't know what could be further said on the matter.

 

A generalization coupled with an inability to filter context and nuance. I'm sensing a lack of life experience between you two.

---

And now I got a case of the Sisyphean feels going on. Course, if I had a sense of humor it wouldn't even bother me... lulz

I'm done with this particular current of thread drift.

Life experience? Listen I don't know what you're talking about again. I'm just going to nip this in the bud right now. If I insulted you or your love of GRRM in anyway way, I'm sorry. I was making a quick joke, that was not meant to offended anyone, but clearly you took some offense to it and for that I'm sorry.

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36 minutes ago, sifth said:

 

The problem is GRRM put himself in a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation at the end of the third book. While just about everything you said is true about the gap causing problems, not using the gap that was set up at the end of the book caused a new set of problems. Such as Tyrion's travel log chapters where he spends a lot of time just looking at turtles and water ways. Brienne riding in circles trying to find Sansa and failing each time is another problem the lack of a the gap caused. The biggest and sadly the one that's not ending any time soon is Sansa, Arya and Bran's training. I get that it's interesting to see how the Stark children are slowly becoming very different because of their training, but in a way it's delayed the story as a whole as a result of this. In place of having a fast paced story we need to have a slower paced one so Arya can slowly become no one, so that Sasna can become lady Littlefinger and so on.

 

The worst victim of this slow pace was Sam. The guy spent nearly all of AFFC's on a boat doing nothing, except getting laid. Don't get me wrong Sam had a few good moments, like Maester Aemon's eulogy and his last chapter when he FINALLY got off the boat, was really awesome as well. For the most part though his story really did feel like filler though.

 

See, now I can get behind this. The counter argument against proponents of the gap, that being -all the stuff that we'd miss- does seem to be ignoring all the problems created by the infill itself.

Like, Martin has often commented on how he does't like working from an outline, and I understand his reasons behind that. But by only having a strong idea of the characters, a loose idea of the stakes and yet a firm idea of how it ends-- that last is at definite odds with the two former and puts you in a serious predicament as a writer. If you let the characters dictate as you go, say, as they move and react in an ever evolving system, I just don't see how you can also have a firm idea of how it ends without some necessary shoe horning, and if the feet don't fit... 

I mean, ASoIaF was propositioned as a trilogy. It grew in the telling, nothing wrong with that. It happens. The gap though, imo, would've brought the narrative back into whatever loose definition of control Martin prescribes to, but in doing the infill he's gone and created a few Meereenese Knot type situations in Westeros proper itself. The Faith Militant and High Sparrow, for instance. With having the potential to draw quite a few of the Houses into that conflict there's no way it ends well, but after it's resolution [whatever that resolution is, except that it cannot be the status quo] can anyone see them or a somewhat empowered 'lowborn' populace aligning with the nobles and getting behind a proactive move north to defend the realm? 

Maybe that's where Dany and her compassion/strengths will come in. Or not.          

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

@Calibandar

The problem with the gap simply is that it would have just caused a huge mess. On the one hand there would have been the problem of the jump itself and the fact that a lot of stuff would have happened off-screen. George would have been forced to either cover a lot of stuff in flashback chapters/memories (something we already have happening with all the stuff related to Robert's Rebellion, the reign of Aerys II, and other stuff from the past). This would have slowed down the entire narrative - George wouldn't have been able to just continue the story he would also have been forced to tell us stuff that happened in between. Because we all would have wanted to know. We would have wanted to know what exactly Stannis and Roose did (and what the hell happened that the Boltons didn't just amass a Frey-Bolton-Lannister army to crush Stannis' pitiful band), how it came that Littlefinger got away with Lysa's murder, what the hell happened in KL after Tywin's murder, and what the hell Tyrion did in the meantime. The Jon Snow story in itself might have worked had there been no Stannis at the Wall. Then it could just have been all peace and quiet for the next five years. But even that would have been strange because things weren't exactly all peace and quiet in the first three books at the Wall and in the lands beyond. And there is no good reason imaginable why the Others should have set on their hands all those years or why the wildlings wouldn't have used the time to make another attempt at the Wall.

The idea that the story would essentially just pause for five years makes no sense, either. The War of the Five Kings didn't just pause, either, and while it is believable that certain factions would bide their time for a while five years would be a lot of time for that. Neither the Boltons nor Stannis would wait this long especially not with winter coming. One assumes autumn would have stretched over those five years so that winter would only have begun in the Prologue after the gap but even so - the winter season would still cripple the capability for war in the books after the gap, prompting the question why those people plotting revenge, invasions, attacks etc. didn't do anything important in the last five years.

The 'gap problem' arises in ASoS, not in AFfC/ADwD. Those books are George's way to deal with the mistakes he made in ASoS, most notably setting up Dany, Jon, Arya, Sansa, and Bran for some sort of apprenticeship. Especially the Dany story is problematic because there is no way around her decision to stay in Meereen. Her changing her mind in the first chapter of ADwD wouldn't have worked, it would simply not have been believable.

Is it even possible that he narrative could have been slower than in Feast and Dance, where the majority of the characters spent 80% of their chapters doing nothing that moves along the story, characterization, anything?  He's telling us all the stuff that happened "in between" because there is no gap.  I don't get it.  He was able to fill in the entire history of Westeros, Robert's rebellion and much more...but he couldn't do 5 years of flashbacks?  If you ask me, he over wrote the flashbacks and couldn't bring himself to cut them.  Thus, the story has been stuck in neutral for 15 years with no end in sight.  Maybe he has basically decided to kill everyone in book 7 and that's how he intends to finish it...the show's body count strongly suggests this.....even accounting for the fact that not every minor character may also die, but still....

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@Cas Stark

@sifth

After the gap the story also would have to be restarted, new characters be introduced, and the new political situation be set up, most likely needing more pages and chapters than were spent in AFfC and ADwD on that.

Five years would have been five years, and the story would not have started in medias res but in the beginning, which means we would have gotten a slow buildup like we got in AFfC/ADwD in addition to a ton of flashback and memories that would have slowed things down even further and would have introduced a ton of new mysteries.

The problem is the whole apprenticeship idea for most of the characters. There was no good reason for Dany to settle in Meereen, for Arya to go to Braavos, for Sansa to play Littlefinger's bastard daughters, and so on. The story could easily continued in a more direct way after ASoS - had George not set up things in the wrong way back then.

Or had he in the very beginning decided to slow the story down in itself and cover 1-2 years in each book.

Those books all contain a lot of boring chapters. Bran and Arya are jokes as characters in the first three books. They do nothing important, and they do not contribute to the overall political narrative of the story.

Sam, Tyrion, Davos, and even Brienne have a goal in AFfC/ADwD. Arya and Bran do not - or if they do, then their goals are uninteresting and do not warrant that we should read about what they do all the time. Yet still the first books are crammed full with chapters like that despite that this could all just be skipped.

But the point is that this isn't just all filler. The point is that those books are not just about 'plot', they are also about the world and the characters therein, how they suffer and cope with war and its aftermath. And they have also always, at least in part, been about personal journeys through unknown territory, may you like that or not.

Things will speed up when things finally escalate again, but I guess even during the War for the Dawn and the coming wars people will have to travel a lot during which nothing important happens. Perhaps we'll see more people journeying with a navy or an army in the future but it won't be all battles.

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18 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

@Cas Stark

@sifth

 

Things will speed up when things finally escalate again, but I guess even during the War for the Dawn and the coming wars people will have to travel a lot during which nothing important happens. Perhaps we'll see more people journeying with a navy or an army in the future but it won't be all battles.

It's all about pacing man. Stannis gets from Dargon Stone to the Wall in less than 100 pages, but it takes Sam an entire book to get to Old Town. You don't always need to show someones travel log.

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On ‎5‎/‎20‎/‎2016 at 7:21 AM, sifth said:

Yea because seeing every rock and lake Tyrion moves past in the book was much better. Seeing Dany do nothing except fail as a leader was also pure gold as well. Ohh and don't get me started about Quentyn Martell and his massive contribution to the story, lol

 

On ‎5‎/‎20‎/‎2016 at 3:41 AM, apovsic said:

Well, now I'm totally convinced that 5 - year gap was a terrible idea.

 

This is why Tor is feeling novellas now. Shorter = easier to produce, for a more specific market, in less time, and you take up less of a person's life. Not everyone wants to spend five years of their life reading a book, let alone waiting for one. You can make up for length with density of world-building, immersion and internal consistency.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

@Cas Stark

@sifth

After the gap the story also would have to be restarted, new characters be introduced, and the new political situation be set up, most likely needing more pages and chapters than were spent in AFfC and ADwD on that.

Five years would have been five years, and the story would not have started in medias res but in the beginning, which means we would have gotten a slow buildup like we got in AFfC/ADwD in addition to a ton of flashback and memories that would have slowed things down even further and would have introduced a ton of new mysteries.

The problem is the whole apprenticeship idea for most of the characters. There was no good reason for Dany to settle in Meereen, for Arya to go to Braavos, for Sansa to play Littlefinger's bastard daughters, and so on. The story could easily continued in a more direct way after ASoS - had George not set up things in the wrong way back then.

Or had he in the very beginning decided to slow the story down in itself and cover 1-2 years in each book.

Those books all contain a lot of boring chapters. Bran and Arya are jokes as characters in the first three books. They do nothing important, and they do not contribute to the overall political narrative of the story.

Sam, Tyrion, Davos, and even Brienne have a goal in AFfC/ADwD. Arya and Bran do not - or if they do, then their goals are uninteresting and do not warrant that we should read about what they do all the time. Yet still the first books are crammed full with chapters like that despite that this could all just be skipped.

But the point is that this isn't just all filler. The point is that those books are not just about 'plot', they are also about the world and the characters therein, how they suffer and cope with war and its aftermath. And they have also always, at least in part, been about personal journeys through unknown territory, may you like that or not.

Things will speed up when things finally escalate again, but I guess even during the War for the Dawn and the coming wars people will have to travel a lot during which nothing important happens. Perhaps we'll see more people journeying with a navy or an army in the future but it won't be all battles.

I'm not at all certain we needed all of these new characters or stories.  I could have done without the expansion of Dorne and the Iron Islands both.  I could have done w/out Brienne's POV entirely.  Ditto on Quentyn, Victarian, Hotah, Oakheart.

Dany's Dance POVs are SO repetitive, we didn't need all of that.  I maintain and no one has ever given me reason to change my mind that he could have cut 25-30% out of Feast and Dance with no loss and much gain.  Dany can fail and daydream less, Tyrion can travel less and get kidnapped less.  And so on.

 Arya is my favorite character and so I loved her POVs, but even I admit we could have had less Arya training also.

Everyone says the last two books are to "set up" the final acts, but based on what GRRM has said, and the chapters he has read from Winds, it seems like it crawls along at the same slow, and here we have 2 paragraphs on flora and fauna, pace.

But, I'm not even that interested any longer in whether he finishes or in what the finish ends up being, as by now, based on the show I have a pretty good idea that "bittersweet" to GRRM is "totally, unbearably, why did I read this, level of tragic and depressing" for me.  

I can wait until hell freezes over to read about the majority of the rest of the Starks and their wolves dying.

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15 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I'm not at all certain we needed all of these new characters or stories.  I could have done without the expansion of Dorne and the Iron Islands both.  I could have done w/out Brienne's POV entirely.  Ditto on Quentyn, Victarian, Hotah, Oakheart.

Dany's Dance POVs are SO repetitive, we didn't need all of that.  I maintain and no one has ever given me reason to change my mind that he could have cut 25-30% out of Feast and Dance with no loss and much gain.  Dany can fail and daydream less, Tyrion can travel less and get kidnapped less.  And so on.

 Arya is my favorite character and so I loved her POVs, but even I admit we could have had less Arya training also.

Everyone says the last two books are to "set up" the final acts, but based on what GRRM has said, and the chapters he has read from Winds, it seems like it crawls along at the same slow, and here we have 2 paragraphs on flora and fauna, pace.

But, I'm not even that interested any longer in whether he finishes or in what the finish ends up being, as by now, based on the show I have a pretty good idea that "bittersweet" to GRRM is "totally, unbearably, why did I read this, level of tragic and depressing" for me.  

I can wait until hell freezes over to read about the majority of the rest of the Starks and their wolves dying.

To be fair, the show has killed off a good number of characters that aren't dead in the books and even GRRM has said some of them wont die in the novels.

 

To be perfectly honest I do wonder if the show does get a little too kill crazy.

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11 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Is it even possible that he narrative could have been slower than in Feast and Dance, where the majority of the characters spent 80% of their chapters doing nothing that moves along the story, characterization, anything?  He's telling us all the stuff that happened "in between" because there is no gap.  I don't get it.  He was able to fill in the entire history of Westeros, Robert's rebellion and much more...but he couldn't do 5 years of flashbacks?  If you ask me, he over wrote the flashbacks and couldn't bring himself to cut them.  Thus, the story has been stuck in neutral for 15 years with no end in sight.  Maybe he has basically decided to kill everyone in book 7 and that's how he intends to finish it...the show's body count strongly suggests this.....even accounting for the fact that not every minor character may also die, but still....

I think it is pretty clear now that this is the case. If the show is anything to go by, and if GRRM's repeated comments about the downturn in POV's in Winds are anything to go by, Winds will see him "correct" the inflated number of storyline he has saddled himself with in AFFC and ADWD. By deciding not to have the gap and instead fill the gap, he has invented a lot of material to fill that same gap. Material which is also not very good, but that is beside the point, the point is that we can now see that skipping the gap actually created the problem.

13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

@Calibandar

The problem with the gap simply is that it would have just caused a huge mess. On the one hand there would have been the problem of the jump itself and the fact that a lot of stuff would have happened off-screen. George would have been forced to either cover a lot of stuff in flashback chapters/memories (something we already have happening with all the stuff related to Robert's Rebellion, the reign of Aerys II, and other stuff from the past). This would have slowed down the entire narrative - George wouldn't have been able to just continue the story he would also have been forced to tell us stuff that happened in between. Because we all would have wanted to know. We would have wanted to know what exactly Stannis and Roose did (and what the hell happened that the Boltons didn't just amass a Frey-Bolton-Lannister army to crush Stannis' pitiful band), how it came that Littlefinger got away with Lysa's murder, what the hell happened in KL after Tywin's murder, and what the hell Tyrion did in the meantime. The Jon Snow story in itself might have worked had there been no Stannis at the Wall. Then it could just have been all peace and quiet for the next five years. But even that would have been strange because things weren't exactly all peace and quiet in the first three books at the Wall and in the lands beyond. And there is no good reason imaginable why the Others should have set on their hands all those years or why the wildlings wouldn't have used the time to make another attempt at the Wall.

 

Honestly Varys, these are actually things that can be dealt with in a believable manner in flashbacks.

It only means that the openening chapters of the new book would have POV's with a lot of flashbacks, and then that would be much reduced as their POV's ventured further into the book.

Also, you say there is no "there is no good reason imaginable why the Others should have set on their hands all those years" .

That is crazy talk. That is very easily explained. Not only do they not appear to be in any particular rush anyway, we have now actually had ADWD, the book covering that gap, and they still sat on their hands for the full duration of the period.

What you are doing here is rationalizing and defending a decision that George made. You're trying to come up with reasons why the gap would not have worked, because George ended up deciding he didn't want the gap. When actually, if he had decided to have the gap and start "Dance" 5 years later, we would all have been fine with that, let's be real here. No one would have said, wow that really didn't work, he should have detailed all of those 5 years instead. 

Realistically, the gap could have worked, and I still do not see a compelling argument for even two or three story lines that absolutely needed to have a story filled out live, instead of it being explained away in flashback or through offhand remarks.

And as Cas Stark mentioned, there are also a lot of side stories popping up in AFFC/ADWD because the gap was decided to be filled.

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Maybe the gap could have worked for another author. Remember, however, that GRRM tried to make it work for a year and he scrapped it precisely because it wasn't working, in his estimation. He did not feel it made for a good story.

That's really all there is to say about it. There's simply no one more capable of knowing this than the guy who wrote it and decided to scrap it because he was unhappy with it.

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@Calibandar

@Cas Stark

@sifth

All I can say is that I honestly don't think the gap would have worked and that by thinking about what it would have entailed - the complete introduction of the new political situation and a lot of new characters years after the POV characters would have met them would have taken a lot of time and would always have felt to the reader as George cheating out of witnessing important events by jumping ahead in time.

I mean, I know that I'd have wanted to read a detailed account of Dany's, Cersei's, Jon's, etc. five year reign.

Not to mention the changes to the story the gap would have brought with it. I mean, Cersei's relationship with Tommen the eight-year-old boy is one thing. Cersei's relationship with Tommen the thirteen/fourteen-year-old king is another matter entirely. Especially considering that he would already have been old enough to consummate his marriage with Margaery by the time the story would have begun. Cersei's entire arc would have been different, most likely, with Tommen being a more active player, actually being torn between the love for his mother and his wife. That would have made the entire KL plot a completely different story.

I think you can see remnants of the problems I cite in both the new Alayne chapter and the Mercy chapter. Apparently both those chapters were originally designed as the first Arya and Sansa chapters after the five year gap (which is, I think, both visible in Arya's apparent sexual maturity/use of sexual attraction in her dealings with Raff as well as in Robert Arryn's apparent maturity - he actually seems to be too aware about the threat Harry the Heir poses to him than the version of Robert Arryn we know is).

Both chapters serve is good introductions in the new situation but they would all have to be followed by a bunch of chapters explaining what has happened in-between. I mean, thanks to AFfC and ADwD we know what Sansa and Arya did in Braavos and what happened in the Vale, but this would have to be explained after the five year gap, too.

Or think about Daenerys in Meereen. Dany's husband Hizdahr zo Loraq (if she would have been married in that scenario) and all her courtiers, enemies, allies, and so forth would have to be introduced and set up. The idea that nothing important happened in Slaver's Bay or that Queen Daenerys didn't do a lot of queenly stuff in the last five years leading many people to visit and hang out at her court (or her having to wage a few wars to put her neighbors into place) wouldn't make any sense.

And my personal taste is actually that AGoT is the worst book in the series because it lets the story begin on a too small a scale for the size into which it eventually grows (in that sense it is comparable to 'The Lord of the Rings' which in its first chapter still is very much the originally planned 'Hobbit sequel') and that I as a reader had much more issues with those dreadful and boring Arya, Bran, and Samwell chapters in the first three books than I had with the chapters in AFfC/ADwD. What can I say? I actually liked reading about Tyrion hanging out with Connington and Aegon and their gang. Penny, Moqorro and Jorah later are less interesting, I admit that, but they are still more interesting than most of the stuff Arya or Bran do in the first three books because Tyrion has a goal. Arya and Bran never did.

AFfC contains much of the best prose George has written for this series. The problem with that book is that it is only half of the story and that Cersei's entire arc is very irritating for any reader who doesn't know that Aegon is preparing an invasion at the same time.

I don't have any issues with the Samwell story, either. ACoK  and ASoS had Arya going nowhere for two books, after all, not to mention that Sam already took most of his chapters in ASoS to getting back from the Fist to Castle Black. He didn't make much progress in that book, either.

And there are no real side stories in AFfC/ADwD. The Ironborn, Dorne, and Brienne are central to the second part of the story. It may be that this is not yet apparent to everyone, but there are clear hints in that direction. Dorne's importance is obvious, and Euron's importance is obvious to anyone who doesn't ignore how he has been set up. And Brienne would never have become a POV at that stage in the story when she would not be destined to play a crucial and important role in the later parts of the story. In AFfC her purpose was to show us the aftermath of war just as Arya showed us the effects of war back in ACoK and ASoS. But just as Arya eventually got to Braavos (where her story as an active protagonist truly begun) Brienne most certainly will eventually end up where the hell the plot needs her to be for whatever her purpose is.

I mean, TWoIaF most likely didn't introduce the fact that Brienne and her father are most likely the closest Targaryen cousins yet alive (aside from Stannis and Shireen) simply by accident. This connects Brienne intricately to many of the core plots as well as the mystical/magical aspects of the story. There is a reason why she ended up with burning-swords-producing Thoros of Myr that goes beyond the need for a POV to cover the future revenge plans of Catelyn Stark.

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18 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

@Calibandar

@Cas Stark

@sifth

 

And there are no real side stories in AFfC/ADwD. The Ironborn, Dorne, and Brienne are central to the second part of the story. It may be that this is not yet apparent to everyone, but there are clear hints in that direction. Dorne's importance is obvious, and Euron's importance is obvious to anyone who doesn't ignore how he has been set up. And Brienne would never have become a POV at that stage in the story when she would not be destined to play a crucial and important role in the later parts of the story. In AFfC her purpose was to show us the aftermath of war just as Arya showed us the effects of war back in ACoK and ASoS. But just as Arya eventually got to Braavos (where her story as an active protagonist truly begun) Brienne most certainly will eventually end up where the hell the plot needs her to be for whatever her purpose is.

I mean, TWoIaF most likely didn't introduce the fact that Brienne and her father are most likely the closest Targaryen cousins yet alive (aside from Stannis and Shireen) simply by accident. This connects Brienne intricately to many of the core plots as well as the mystical/magical aspects of the story. There is a reason why she ended up with burning-swords-producing Thoros of Myr that goes beyond the need for a POV to cover the future revenge plans of Catelyn Stark.

You're using a lot of conjuncture to defend Brienne's AFFC's arc and it mostly seems to be a case of "GRRM put her in the book as a POV, so she must be important". GRRM also made Arys Oakheart and Quentyn Martell POV characters and their only contribution to the story was to die.

To be honest I loved her final two chapters, when stuff finally starts happening, but for the most part her AFFC arc consists of her going from one random place to the next, killing a few minor villains and not finding Sansa. We'll see what's next for Brienne in the up coming book I hope, but a lot of her AFFC's arc felt like fat that could easily have been trimmed, so to speak.

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There's no real conjecture with this. GRRM explicitly stated that Brienne and Dorne were two areas that didn't work through flashback for him, that he felt it was too important to show what happened with them following ASoS to just go and treat it all after a five year flashback.

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