The monkeys growing?

[Ser Wun Wun]

Summer 2017 is my guess at this point.  6 years between books is looking like the new norm.  

[Locksley]

When I first read the update I wasn't sure what to think. Upon reflection, I began to think that maybe the "growing monkey" was representative of GRRM's growing unease about the direction the show was taking as opposed to the book series. To me, they are two seperate entities. I must say this new season (with the exception of that one fight sequence) has been overwhelmingly lack lustre and disappointing. I think it's possible GRRM may feel the same way (but hey, wth do I know? I'm just some guy on the internet with an opinion  like anyone else) and he is uneasy because the show is taking such a dramatic turn for the worse in comparison to his vision for the book series. Or at least that's what I hope.

[Big Daddy]

I just pray that "the monkey's growing" doesn't mean that he really has about 100 pages done and has another 1,400 to go. Because Football Season Is Coming...

[RoamingRonin]

He wrote a short story called the Monkey Treatment which... well, it's definitely not a good thing for the monkey to be growing.

[Masha]

On 5/12/2016 at 11:59 PM, JCRB's Honeypot said:

I think he can release Aeron without any fear to spoil, as he was ready to read it before.

Now, we know via Arianne that Griff

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took Storm's End.

So, he could have released that too.

If he released this specific chapter is because of the show version of Dorne, imo. He has done it before with Arya and Sansa. So, blame Porne.

We knew that Storm's End was already taken by someone as far back as in AFFC via Cersei's POV, in ADWD JonCon was planning an attack on Storm's End. Connect the two - Arianne's storyline still hasn't caught on to end of AFFC and we just met a lot of characters who will not do anything significant other than world building.  Frankly it DID NOT make me like Dorne's storyline more. 

9 hours ago, Locksley said:

When I first read the update I wasn't sure what to think. Upon reflection, I began to think that maybe the "growing monkey" was representative of GRRM's growing unease about the direction the show was taking as opposed to the book series. To me, they are two seperate entities. I must say this new season (with the exception of that one fight sequence) has been overwhelmingly lack lustre and disappointing. I think it's possible GRRM may feel the same way (but hey, wth do I know? I'm just some guy on the internet with an opinion  like anyone else) and he is uneasy because the show is taking such a dramatic turn for the worse in comparison to his vision for the book series. Or at least that's what I hope.

I doubt it. Growing monkey = son of Kong=winds of winter

GRRM makes it a POINT not to criticize the show 

So no, it wasn't criticism of the show, as you obviously hoped it was

 

[Hos the Hostage]

I thought he meant that the monkey is growing heavier, increasing the pressure on him to finish the book. At any rate, I hope we will get the book before 2017 April. 

[JonCon's Red Beard]

1 minute ago, Masha said:

We knew that Storm's End was already taken by someone as far back as in AFFC via Cersei's POV,

Where?

1 minute ago, Masha said:

in ADWD JonCon was planning an attack on Storm's End.

 

1 minute ago, Masha said:

Connect the two - Arianne's storyline still hasn't caught on to end of AFFC

No. Arianne's storyline ended in Dance, with Doran telling the Snakes what to do and sending them to specific missions. Jon's letter hadn't yet arrived. We just found out in Arianne I.

1 minute ago, Masha said:

and we just met a lot of characters who will not do anything significant other than world building.

As I said, ASOIAF fandom must be the only fandom that complains that the book they read has too much world building.

1 minute ago, Masha said:

 Frankly it DID NOT make me like Dorne's storyline more. 

Well, this is not "Dorne" but more specific to Aegon, as we're seeing his conquests.

1 minute ago, Masha said:

I doubt it. Growing monkey = son of Kong=winds of winter

GRRM makes it a POINT not to criticize the show 

He also makes a point on not mention nothing at all about it, while praising other shows.

1 minute ago, Masha said:

So no, it wasn't criticism of the show, as you obviously hoped it was

 

That's why he released Mercy and Sansa before, right?

[sifth]

1 hour ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

Where?

 

No. Arianne's storyline ended in Dance, with Doran telling the Snakes what to do and sending them to specific missions. Jon's letter hadn't yet arrived. We just found out in Arianne I.

As I said, ASOIAF fandom must be the only fandom that complains that the book they read has too much world building.

Well, this is not "Dorne" but more specific to Aegon, as we're seeing his conquests.

He also makes a point on not mention nothing at all about it, while praising other shows.

That's why he released Mercy and Sansa before, right?

You honestly think GRRM releasing sample chapters is his personal middle finger to the show? I don't think so man, I think it's mostly to show us the book still has surprises for us, even if the show is spoiling the over all story for us.

 

Just my 2 cents though.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Just now, sifth said:

You honestly think GRRM releasing sample chapters is his personal middle finger to the show? I don't think so man, I think it's mostly to show us the book still has surprises for us, even if the show is spoiling the over all story for us.

 

Just my 2 cents though.

"Personal middle finger" is up to anyone's interpretation. But as a person who doesn't believe in coincidences, I believe there is a pattern:

Mercy was released before the show did a "Mercy"-like scene. (He even spoiled Cersei with this chapter)

Alayne was released before the show did what they did to Sansa.

And after Doran, Aeron and Trystane were killed, he releases that chapter and says "You want to know what the Sand Snakes, Prince Doran, Areo Hotah, Ellaria Sand, Darkstar, and the rest will be up to in WINDS OF WINTER? Quite a lot, actually. The sample will give you a taste. For the rest, you will need to wait".

Rather than "surprises" us (because I don't see the show spoiling us anything), he's saying "in my book, it all makes sense".

Because, if we're talking about releasing chapters, why not Aeron? He definitely wanted to read that one a couple of years ago.

I mean, if this had been a one simple case, yeah, it's in our minds. But this is the third time he does something like this.

[Prince of the North]

21 minutes ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

"Personal middle finger" is up to anyone's interpretation. But as a person who doesn't believe in coincidences, I believe there is a pattern:

Mercy was released before the show did a "Mercy"-like scene. (He even spoiled Cersei with this chapter)

Alayne was released before the show did what they did to Sansa.

And after Doran, Aeron and Trystane were killed, he releases that chapter and says "You want to know what the Sand Snakes, Prince Doran, Areo Hotah, Ellaria Sand, Darkstar, and the rest will be up to in WINDS OF WINTER? Quite a lot, actually. The sample will give you a taste. For the rest, you will need to wait".

Rather than "surprises" us (because I don't see the show spoiling us anything), he's saying "in my book, it all makes sense".

Because, if we're talking about releasing chapters, why not Aeron? He definitely wanted to read that one a couple of years ago.

I mean, if this had been a one simple case, yeah, it's in our minds. But this is the third time he does something like this.

Exactly!  Once could certainly be coincidence.  But three times now?  Nope, I think it's a definite pattern.  And I actually picked up on it when he released Alayne I just prior to the show eliminating Sansa's Vale story line and putting her in Winterfell after already releasing Mercy just before some of it's content was moved up and used in the show.   

[Masha]

1 hour ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

Where?

 

No. Arianne's storyline ended in Dance, with Doran telling the Snakes what to do and sending them to specific missions. Jon's letter hadn't yet arrived. We just found out in Arianne I.

As I said, ASOIAF fandom must be the only fandom that complains that the book they read has too much world building.

Well, this is not "Dorne" but more specific to Aegon, as we're seeing his conquests.

He also makes a point on not mention nothing at all about it, while praising other shows.

That's why he released Mercy and Sansa before, right?

He released Mercy chapter before season 4 ep 1 because D&D took her actions (and words) from that chapter and put it the episode, it was a spoiler and he released Mercy chapter to pre-empt the spoiler. It was not a critique (other than D&D filming spoilers )

Really? He is praising this show a lot, for more than any other shows. The only specific praising other than, old/art-house movies that he shows in his theatre which is partially advertising and Hugo awards musings, was of Outlander and it was mostly him praising Tobias Menzies and then lamenting that D&D probably won't be able to get him back to Game of Thrones because there is only small part left with Edmure (based on the books) and he is too famous now.

Mostly he stopped talking about the show is this year, because it is going into new territory and whatever he says would be considered spoilers. He only commented on drastically different storylines - and only in terms of how different they are and not spoilers.

GRRM listed all Dorne characters as he released that chapter, thats why I refer to it as Dorne.

 

 

  

[sifth]

3 hours ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

"Personal middle finger" is up to anyone's interpretation. But as a person who doesn't believe in coincidences, I believe there is a pattern:

Mercy was released before the show did a "Mercy"-like scene. (He even spoiled Cersei with this chapter)

Alayne was released before the show did what they did to Sansa.

And after Doran, Aeron and Trystane were killed, he releases that chapter and says "You want to know what the Sand Snakes, Prince Doran, Areo Hotah, Ellaria Sand, Darkstar, and the rest will be up to in WINDS OF WINTER? Quite a lot, actually. The sample will give you a taste. For the rest, you will need to wait".

Rather than "surprises" us (because I don't see the show spoiling us anything), he's saying "in my book, it all makes sense".

Because, if we're talking about releasing chapters, why not Aeron? He definitely wanted to read that one a couple of years ago.

I mean, if this had been a one simple case, yeah, it's in our minds. But this is the third time he does something like this.

This chapter had very little to do with Dorne though, and more with the Faegon plot line. Also this is a chapter he already read ages ago.

[Lord Varys]

I'd have liked a new sample chapter. The Prologue, perhaps. Or a chapter set at the Wall or in KL.

But then, we already have a lot of them by now. Anyone reading all the samples and reports on the ADwD chapters will remember how it felt to reach the first new chapters around page 150 or so. It doesn't make a pleasant read to know so much in advance.

[sifth]

6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I'd have liked a new sample chapter. The Prologue, perhaps. Or a chapter set at the Wall or in KL.

But then, we already have a lot of them by now. Anyone reading all the samples and reports on the ADwD chapters will remember how it felt to reach the first new chapters around page 150 or so. It doesn't make a pleasant read to know so much in advance.

I think we've already reached that point with The Winds of Winter. I think this makes 11 chapters that have been released to us now, in some form or another.

[The Fattest Leech]

6 hours ago, RoamingRonin said:

He wrote a short story called the Monkey Treatment which... well, it's definitely not a good thing for the monkey to be growing.

I always think of that story when I hear anything about a monkey on his back. Yeah, that monkey story ain't a good thing

This announcement seems to me that he has been working and is closer to completion. I check his Not A Blog a few times a day and have noticed that he has had more and more of his minions making posts for him and there have been long stretches with no updates at all. Could be anything, could be something.

I'll admit. This post of his gave me the feels. What can I say, I'm a cheap date. http://grrm.livejournal.com/484118.html

[Lord Varys]

I didn't count them. But yeah, if you break it down it could be about as many pages as the last time. And that really cheapens the reading experience later on. We'll most likely again be half through the book when finally something new happens (something we couldn't predict on the basis of the stuff we already knew). In ADwD that moment only came when Aegon decided to go west instead of east. I didn't saw that one coming.

In that sense it is most likely a very wise decision to keep the samples connected to certain plots. We know a lot about the Battle of Meereen, the Stormlands situation, and a little bit about Theon, Arya, and Sansa. Nothing about Jon, Dany, Bran, Jaime, Brienne, Samwell, Aeron, Cersei, etc. So this time there will be a lot of new chapters right at the beginning of the book if we assume that George is not going to focus only on the battles in the beginning.

[sifth]

15 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I didn't count them. But yeah, if you break it down it could be about as many pages as the last time. And that really cheapens the reading experience later on. We'll most likely again be half through the book when finally something new happens (something we couldn't predict on the basis of the stuff we already knew). In ADwD that moment only came when Aegon decided to go west instead of east. I didn't saw that one coming.

In that sense it is most likely a very wise decision to keep the samples connected to certain plots. We know a lot about the Battle of Meereen, the Stormlands situation, and a little bit about Theon, Arya, and Sansa. Nothing about Jon, Dany, Bran, Jaime, Brienne, Samwell, Aeron, Cersei, etc. So this time there will be a lot of new chapters right at the beginning of the book if we assume that George is not going to focus only on the battles in the beginning.

Aside from the prologue, I assume the first ten or so chapters will be the battles. George did mention he's starting this book off with a bang and we already have 6 chapters released that are dedicated to both battles. So it seems like the natural thing to do.

[T and A]

At first, I want to say that I don't want to offend anyone and if someone may take my post personaly I apologize hereby :-).

At this point, I don't give a sh*** about GRRM anymore. He is trolling with his loyal fans (to whom I included myself until now) for years now. He made millions of Dollars with the books AND WITH THE SHOW. We all bought the books and watched or watch the show and made him rich and famous, and now he doesn't even want to be asked when the next book will be finished. Now I don't know if some people on this forum have read ONLY Books from GRRM, if that is the case, I can assure you, that other authors are way more responsible with their fans and don't act like him.  

And as for the Show: You people do know that he is a producer of the Show do you? He knows everything that the Show is gonna do, and which story is gonna tell and has full controll over it. You think that D&D and HBO would pay a Man Millions of Dollars, just to tell a total different story? C'mon man, get real. No, the Story will be at the end the same. When such a massive product - as Game of Thrones is - is produced, both parties sign a contract. They both agree to fullfill the contract. GRRM signed that he will tell them the whole story and they will pay him a lot of money for being able to make it and show it on television. As usual, most authors keep the right to be able to controll what is gonna be shown on the show and what not, and which direction it will take. I am sure GRRM didn't just sold all the rights to D&D without being able to control it. So everything that is shown, is to GRRM will. If he says something different, he is lying to make sure book purist will buy his books or to calm these people down. 

But what GRRM  is doing right now, with the show and the books and the "release" of chapters written years before is just business: 

He tells everything to D&D, and makes millions of Dollars out of the show. On the other side, he want's to keep the expectations and the excitement for the books alive and very high. So he releases chapters about characters that are taking diffeerent paths in the show just to say "Hey look, you aren't spoiled from the show. See, Arianne is not in the show and her chapter is super interesting. The book will be soooo different." .He just adopted a two-pronged aproach. But he will never criticize the show, because at the end of the day IT'S HIS SHOW. Of course the book will diverge from the show, as is every book that was made into a movie (e.g. Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter just to name a few). That has nothing to do that the books aren't finished. It's just that Television is another format than books, and some storys that sounds great in the books are boring to show on television (Like te enourmosly complex story in Dorne). Everybody, including GRRM, knows that. He is not pissed about the show. Everything happens the way he want's it. And we (including myself) buy it. .

 

[finger]

10 hours ago, sifth said:

Aside from the prologue, I assume the first ten or so chapters will be the battles. George did mention he's starting this book off with a bang and we already have 6 chapters released that are dedicated to both battles. So it seems like the natural thing to do.

At the end of ADWD  he left the two battles hanging on, and then he has announced that the new book would start solving this situation.

But that's not much to say, either. Battles' outcome could be uncertain as well. He's had the time even to change his mind. I wonder how he means to put an end to so many storylines in just two books. Winter looks long and hard. And then the Others come.

[Lord Varys]

10 hours ago, sifth said:

Aside from the prologue, I assume the first ten or so chapters will be the battles. George did mention he's starting this book off with a bang and we already have 6 chapters released that are dedicated to both battles. So it seems like the natural thing to do.

I agree that the battles will certainly be the focus of the first section of the book, and I guess he will not insert another POV between, say, Barristan 1, Tyrion 1, Barristan 2, Victarion 1, Tyrion 2, etc. aside from, perhaps, Theon 1, Asha 1, Theon 2, etc. if intends to structure it so that the battles sort of happen simultaneously. Which could work just fine. In fact, I'm pretty sure he does that rather than give us buildup and battle chapters in a row. That would just be silly. We'll most likely jump from buildup to buildup and then from battle to battle chapter. First seeing Tyrion struggling through another mess and then following Theon or Asha attempts to stay alive.

But he also has to start continuing the other stories at one point, and it seems as if there won't be just two battles but actually a succession of battles at various places. The Volantenes are on their way to Meeren, too, and there should be some battle/siege/slaughtering/whatever at Winterfell, too, after the battle at the village/lake.

In that sense the coverage of the battle plots Stannis-Boltons, Meereen, Stormlands might actually fill hundreds of pages if we assume that he'll also occasionally throw up chapters of the other POVs. Sansa, Samwell, Davos, Bran, Jaime, and Brienne spring immediately to mind because we left them either in AFfC or in the middle of ADwD, so the whole chronology thing should dictate that George picks up their threads rather early in the next book.

In general there is a good chance that TWoW will be a very fast paced book. The buildup done in AFfC and ADwD is going to pay off and the various wars and campaigns are not suddenly to end in an eerie sort of apparent peace (like they did at the end of ASoS). Aegon will continue his conquest, Stannis will continue his war if he survives, the Riverlords/Brotherhood are about to strike back (TWoW could easily see an attack on and the subsequent destruction of the Twins, along with all the Freys left), and Euron is not going to sit on his hands, either.

There certainly are plots that could go a little bit slower (Sansa, Arya, Dany, and possibly also whatever is going to happen at Meereen after the battles are over). But much of the other stuff should be a pretty good ride.