Are The Dayne's Valyrians?

[Valens]

They are described as often having silver or blonde hair and violet or purple eyes, or dark blue. And Gerold Dayne has an aquiline nose, just like the Valyrians. There isn't much description of Arthur, unfortunately, but he also probably had fair hair and dark blue or purple eyes. And their family is said to be one of the oldest in Westeros. So...are the Dayne's originally from Valyria?

[Hangover of the Morning]

They are First Men in origin. It's never clear whether the purple eyes are their "trademark" or if it's a recent acquisition, e.g. Arthur/Ashara grandad marrying a Valyrian woman. 

They don't always have fair hair though. Ashara Dayne was a brunette. 

[Valens]

36 minutes ago, Hangover of the Morning said:

They are First Men in origin. It's never clear whether the purple eyes are their "trademark" or if it's a recent acquisition, e.g. Arthur/Ashara grandad marrying a Valyrian woman. 

They don't always have fair hair though. Ashara Dayne was a brunette. 

Thanks for that info. Well, being one of the oldest people in Westeros kinda excludes them from being Valyrian. But it's still odd that they can have silver hair. I thought that was a strictly Valyrian thing.

[Starfell]

55 minutes ago, Valens said:

Thanks for that info. Well, being one of the oldest people in Westeros kinda excludes them from being Valyrian. But it's still odd that they can have silver hair. I thought that was a strictly Valyrian thing.

As mentioned they might have married someone with Valyrian blood in the past, either from one of the Free Cities, the Valyrian Empire itself (unlikely given their nobility's disdain for exogamy, but by no means impossible), or a descendant of Daenerys Targaryen and Maron Martell.

There's also the possibility that (given the freaky genetics of ASoIaF) they are descended from proto-Valyrian stock who separated from the Valyrians before they rose to prominence, which dovetails with the theory that the original Azor Ahai was the founder of House Dayne, and that the original Lightbringer was Dawn

[Scorpion92]

They are from Great Empire of the Dawn, predating First Men.

[TheSovereignGrave]

12 minutes ago, Scorpion92 said:

They are from Great Empire of the Dawn, predating First Men.

You probably shouldn't say that as though it's fact.

[Scorpion92]

3 minutes ago, TheSovereignGrave said:

You probably shouldn't say that as though it's fact.

Okay, I THINK they are from Great Empire of Dawn, predating First Men. Better?

[Melisandre's White Pubes]

Maybe the Valyrians are Daynes who relocated to Essos.  Aren't the first Valyrians from around when the Andals invaded Westeros?  Maybe the Daynes were just chlling around their crashed spacecraft/castle Starfall, being mostly ignored by the humans up north, and then some of them relocated after the Andals invaded.

[TheSovereignGrave]

57 minutes ago, Melisandre's White Pubes said:

Maybe the Valyrians are Daynes who relocated to Essos.  Aren't the first Valyrians from around when the Andals invaded Westeros?  Maybe the Daynes were just chlling around their crashed spacecraft/castle Starfall, being mostly ignored by the humans up north, and then some of them relocated after the Andals invaded.

Nah, the Andals invaded Westeros long after the Freehold was founded.

[Valens]

11 hours ago, Starfell said:

As mentioned they might have married someone with Valyrian blood in the past, either from one of the Free Cities, the Valyrian Empire itself (unlikely given their nobility's disdain for exogamy, but by no means impossible), or a descendant of Daenerys Targaryen and Maron Martell.

There's also the possibility that (given the freaky genetics of ASoIaF) they are descended from proto-Valyrian stock who separated from the Valyrians before they rose to prominence, which dovetails with the theory that the original Azor Ahai was the founder of House Dayne, and that the original Lightbringer was Dawn

That is very interesting. I thought of it too. Could there been some Valyrian who left Valyria for Westeros before Aenar and his daughter? I think Martin's intention is that Dayne's are originally from Valyria, the way he's made them-graceful, purple-eyed, great at fighting and the mystical creation of Starfall and Dawn itself. Or...Dawn, not Starfall. Starfall was named after the meteorite that fell and created Dawn, right?

[TheSovereignGrave]

4 hours ago, Valens said:

That is very interesting. I thought of it too. Could there been some Valyrian who left Valyria for Westeros before Aenar and his daughter? I think Martin's intention is that Dayne's are originally from Valyria, the way he's made them-graceful, purple-eyed, great at fighting and the mystical creation of Starfall and Dawn itself. Or...Dawn, not Starfall. Starfall was named after the meteorite that fell and created Dawn, right?

Except I'm pretty sure GRRM himself has actually explicitly stated that the Daynes are not Valyrian.

[Ebrose]

49 minutes ago, TheSovereignGrave said:

Except I'm pretty sure GRRM himself has actually explicitly stated that the Daynes are not Valyrian.

Well, what he actually said was (from a SSM):

Quote

As for the violet eyes . . . look, Elizabeth Taylor has violet eyes, and she's not of Valyrian descent (that I know). Nor is she related to Aegon the Conquerer.

Though the Citadel entry for the Daynes considers that to mean that "The family is not descended at all from Valyrian blood", I think that GRRM was much more ambiguous than that. For me, the only thing he states is that "violet eyes do not necessarily imply Valyrian descent". 

[BanzaiZ]

Not Valyrian, but it sounds like the purple eyes might be a quirk of their bloodline like the Tully red hair and blue eyes are for that family. The silver hair could be from intermarriage with Essoi families of Lysean or even Volantene descent, but it doesn't sound like they're particularly Valyrian. As another poster pointed out, Ashara Dayne had dark hair.

*note I say the Tully red hair is a quirk simply because their genetics make no damned sense in the real world. Red hair is the recessive of the recessive, yet Tully red persists and even presents as dominant against other bloodlines; see the majority of Ned and Catelyn's kids.

[Melisandre's White Pubes]

I think the Great Empire of the Dawn may be misinterpreted over the millennia to mean an empire that existed on Planetos.  I think ASoIaF is connected to GRRM's Thousand World series, though it would be set many thousands of years after the other stories.  The Great Empire of the Dawn could actually have been an empire across many worlds, with some genetically modified humans, that is remembered by some members that crashed on Planetos.  It is interesting that we know almost nothing about Starfall despite it obviously being important to the backstory.  Perhaps a description of the "castle" would make it clear to modern readers that it is, or is built around, an ancient crashed spacecraft and thus spoil the surprise for when this is revealed.

[Tom Cruise]

17 hours ago, Scorpion92 said:

Okay, I THINK they are from Great Empire of Dawn, predating First Men. Better?

I agree.  I personally think the Valaryians and Daynes SHARED a common ancestor.  Which would also imply that Daynes are not descendants from Valaryia, rather an older bloodline, very likely during the Dawn age.

[aryagonnakill#2]

I believe the Daynes were members of the GEOTD and that they were visiting Old Town, which was founded by the Old Ones(cotf/giant hybrids) when they saw the metor crash in the Red mountains and went to look for it, ultimately founding the house there.

[Hangover of the Morning]

 

40 minutes ago, Tom Cruise said:

I agree.  I personally think the Valaryians and Daynes SHARED a common ancestor.  Which would also imply that Daynes are not descendants from Valaryia, rather an older bloodline, very likely during the Dawn age.

How could the Daynes keep the same features (i.e. purple eyes) for thousands of years? They claim to be in Westeros 10,000 of years but if heavily exaggerated, it doesn't add up. They don't practice incest (as far as we know) and thus the head of the House would take a spouse from another noble House, most likely Dornish and most likely non-purple eyed. Also in every generation some Dayne women and men would be married off into other noble families. So even if the purple eyes were dominant, the Daynes would "spread them around" Dorne, which doesn't seem to be the case.  

[Scorpion92]

7 minutes ago, Hangover of the Morning said:

 

How could the Daynes keep the same features (i.e. purple eyes) for thousands of years? They claim to be in Westeros 10,000 of years but if heavily exaggerated, it doesn't add up. They don't practice incest (as far as we know) and thus the head of the House would take a spouse from another noble House, most likely Dornish and most likely non-purple eyed. Also in every generation some Dayne women and men would be married off into other noble families. So even if the purple eyes were dominant, the Daynes would "spread them around" Dorne, which doesn't seem to be the case.  

Not all of them had purple eyes. Edric Dayne has dark blue eyes unlike Darkstar and Ashara. I guess purple eyes can skip a generation or two, and then reappear again. I don't know, just my speculation.

I mean, it is the same way Starks kept their genetic looks: grey eyes and dark hair. They intermarried with other noble houses for thousands of years, but always seem to keep their "Stark" long face.

[TheSovereignGrave]

12 minutes ago, Hangover of the Morning said:

 

How could the Daynes keep the same features (i.e. purple eyes) for thousands of years? They claim to be in Westeros 10,000 of years but if heavily exaggerated, it doesn't add up. They don't practice incest (as far as we know) and thus the head of the House would take a spouse from another noble House, most likely Dornish and most likely non-purple eyed. Also in every generation some Dayne women and men would be married off into other noble families. So even if the purple eyes were dominant, the Daynes would "spread them around" Dorne, which doesn't seem to be the case.  

Genetics is really not something one can use as an excuse when it comes to aSoIaF. Apparently the Lannister blood is 'weak' (at least compared to the Baratheons') and yet they've had the same golden-haired appearance going back centuries if not millennia. Certain Houses just have a specific 'look' to them even if not all members of the House appear that way.

[Hangover of the Morning]

1 minute ago, TheSovereignGrave said:

Genetics is really not something one can use as an excuse when it comes to aSoIaF. Apparently the Lannister blood is 'weak' (at least compared to the Baratheons') and yet they've had the same golden-haired appearance going back centuries if not millennia. Certain Houses just have a specific 'look' to them even if not all members of the House appear that way.

Yeah. The phenotype is magically bound to the family seat so whoever resides there just looks like their ancestors :-)

The weird thing though is that it's actually kinda contradicted in the text. The Starks have their own archetypal "northern" look hat can be seen in the statues of the old Lords and Kings but Robb looks almost entirely like a Tully and if he had kids with Jeyne and continued the line, the "Stark visage" would be gone in couple generations. I guess the Starks mostly married women from other Northern families in the past but sill Catelyn couldn't have been the first Southern woman to have Stark children.