[Spoilers] Rant and Rave without Reprecussions - Season 6 Edition

[LongRider]

1 hour ago, rosehustle1 said:

Thank you! I'm about to rant about this just to get this off my chest:

Well said!

[bemused]

Re: Lady... I really don't know that blame can be assigned to any one character, apart from the triumverate of Joffrey, Cersei and Robert.

It wasn't until this moment that Ned realised that Robert would so easily allow his hand to be forced by Cersei. And Ned could never have let Lady go - Cersei was demanding the pelt. I'm not sure he could have easily even packed up and gone home, at that point... Wasn't Cersei initially wanting Arya to lose a hand for raising it against Joffrey? At least Robert resisted that. But if he perceived that Ned was turning against him (publicly refusing him, after Robert first approached him in private, when a refusal could have been kept between the two of them).. I'm not sure what he would have agreed to.

Sansa's position would have been difficult for an adult, let alone a child. However, by the time we come to Ned's plans to leave KL, she should have known better than to turn to Cersei . It was obvious who had demanded Lady's death. Sansa was a child .. but a selfish, disobedient child. She was at fault,, yes, but that doesn't mean she should shoulder all the blame. Ned made mistakes, too. Sansa had always been the obedient daughter, but becoming a Queen had never been at stake, before. Still there's no denying that Ned might just have got the jump on Cersei, if Sansa  had obeyed.

But for readers to carry their disapproval to the point of hating the character for having all-too-human foibles is going too far.

[Le Cygne]

Agree with all of that except Ned could have let Lady go, she's a wild animal, he could say she ran away. He should have done what Arya did with Nymeria. (And Lady would have listened to Ned.) But... the death of Lady was really setting up, "Get her a dog, she'll be happier for it."

GRRM said something interesting about that recently...

I think this is going to be big in the next book...

[Tianzi]

Ned was a man of his word and Lady could have reappeared (and prob instantly become quite famous, like Nymeria) after getting shunned. Especially if it was by him, not by Sansa. She could have tried to find her owner.

 

[rosehustle1]

3 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

Ned was a man of his word and Lady could have reappeared (and prob instantly become quite famous, like Nymeria) after getting shunned. Especially if it was by him, not by Sansa. She could have tried to find her owner.

 

I always get angry at him for not thinking of loosing her when he had the chance. But you know, beside Cersei, Robert was also to blame. He just gives up any effort in the situation and leaves. I never understand his behavior here. He's openly gone against Cersei before so why is he suddenly so hesitant?

[Le Cygne]

Ned regretted it. And I think Robert would have been more than fine with it, too. Robert would have been relieved, he was looking for a way out, and this would have provided that.

[SerMixalot]

1 minute ago, rosehustle1 said:

I always get angry at him for not thinking of loosing her when he had the chance. But you know, beside Cersei, Robert was also to blame. He just gives up any effort in the situation and leaves. I never understand his behavior here. He's openly gone against Cersei before so why is he suddenly so hesitant?

When you are constantly fighting with someone who is part of  your life and cant easily be removed, it is often easier to just give them what they want especially when called on it (and called being weak) in public

[Tianzi]

2 minutes ago, rosehustle1 said:

I always get angry at him for not thinking of loosing her when he had the chance. But you know, beside Cersei, Robert was also to blame. He just gives up any effort in the situation and leaves. I never understand his behavior here. He's openly gone against Cersei before so why is he suddenly so hesitant?

I'd say that he just have very little interest in justice and a great interest in not being bothered. He went against Cersei when it served him, but for some girl's pet... not worth having his wife bitching.

[rosehustle1]

16 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Agree with all of that except Ned could have let Lady go, she's a wild animal, he could say she ran away. He should have done what Arya did with Nymeria. But... the death of Lady was really setting up, "Get her a dog, she'll be happier for it."

GRRM said something interesting about that recently...

I think this is going to be big in the next book...

Kind of off topic, but do you ever wonder if the dream she has of Sandor being in her bed was actually a shared dream they were having? I've read this theory before and sometimes I do wonder. I think her warging ability is more stunted, so she has become more of an empath subtly affecting other characters.

[rosehustle1]

2 minutes ago, SerMixalot said:

When you are constantly fighting with someone who is part of  your life and cant easily be removed, it is often easier to just give them what they want especially when called on it (and called being weak) in public

I kind of can see that but doesn't he look less in control here by conceding to her in front of everyone?

 

2 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

I'd say that he just have very little interest in justice and a great interest in not being bothered. He went against Cersei when it served him, but for some girl's pet... not worth having his wife bitching.

Yeah, but he's very loyal to Ned and you would think he would be more vocal on his behalf. I always thought it was kind of strange behavior for him. I get your reasoning it just seems strange considering how he's behaved with her in other instances when people were around.

[Le Cygne]

20 hours ago, rosehustle1 said:

Kind of off topic, but do you ever wonder if the dream she has of Sandor being in her bed was actually a shared dream they were having? I've read this theory before and sometimes I do wonder. I think her warging ability is more stunted, so she has become more of an empath subtly affecting other characters.

I think there's definitely more to it, I would bet good money that's where he's going with all of these mysterious nods and smiles.

Some interesting hints here:

[Tianzi]

1 minute ago, rosehustle1 said:

Yeah, but he's very loyal to Ned and you would think he would be more vocal on his behalf. I always thought it was kind of strange behavior for him. I get your reasoning it just seems strange considering how he's behaved with her in other instances when people were around.

He did in his own interest or if something bigger for him was in stake. He just didn't care about Lady. He didn't want her to get killed, but he was caught between Cersei and Ned, there was an unpleasant scene for him, he wanted out, Cersei ha the biggest bitching capacity, Cersei won. He prioritized his own interest over Ned's.

We are talking about the guy who was glad someone murdered an infant and a toddler for him.

[Le Cygne]

12 minutes ago, SerMixalot said:

When you are constantly fighting with someone who is part of  your life and cant easily be removed, it is often easier to just give them what they want especially when called on it (and called being weak) in public

Agreed, it was that she backed him into a corner publicly. I think that's what Ned knows when he regrets what he did, he's very upset at the magnitude of what he did, looking back. And he had the conversation with Arya about Nymeria, and told her she did the right thing, that was there for a reason, too. I think Robert didn't want do go along with Cersei, and had Ned said, she ran away, Robert would have been very relieved.

[rosehustle1]

Just now, Tianzi said:

He did in his own interest or if something bigger for him was in stake. He just didn't care about Lady. He didn't want her to get killed, but he was caught between Cersei and Ned, there was an unpleasant scene for him, he wanted out, Cersei ha the biggest bitching capacity, Cersei won. He prioritized his own interest over Ned's.

We are talking about the guy who was glad someone murdered an infant and a toddler for him.

That is a good point. His moral compass isn't the best.  It just always surprises me, no matter how many times I've read it, that he so easily concedes to her here.

[SerMixalot]

11 minutes ago, rosehustle1 said:

I kind of can see that but doesn't he look less in control here by conceding to her in front of everyone?

 

Yeah, but he's very loyal to Ned and you would think he would be more vocal on his behalf. I always thought it was kind of strange behavior for him. I get your reasoning it just seems strange considering how he's behaved with her in other instances when people were around.

"You're not going to do ANYTHING to the kids who attacked your SON!"  pretty harsh stuff to ignore, especially in front of the court

[Tianzi]

5 minutes ago, SerMixalot said:

"You're not going to do ANYTHING to the kids who attacked your SON!"  pretty harsh stuff to ignore

Sansa didn't attack Joff and so didn't Lady. Robert completely consciously agreed to punish innocents.

 

/Crossing Sansa out of Stark list saddens me...

[rosehustle1]

1 minute ago, SerMixalot said:

"You're not going to do ANYTHING to the kids who attacked your SON!"  pretty harsh stuff to ignore

That's a good point. If they hadn't had this confrontation in front of the whole court she wouldn't have had so much of an upper hand. So, I can see the appearance of justice for what happened to their crowned prince. Personally, the way he responds and just leaves seems to look cowardly to me. Like, if I was a courtier it would appear to me that the queen's word mattered more than the king's because it's obvious he's not for this outcome.

[SerMixalot]

1 minute ago, rosehustle1 said:

That's a good point. If they hadn't had this confrontation in front of the whole court she wouldn't have had so much of an upper hand. So, I can see the appearance of justice for what happened to their crowned prince. Personally, the way he responds and just leaves seems to look cowardly to me. Like, if I was a courtier it would appear to me that the queen's word mattered more than the king's because it's obvious he's not for this outcome.

No doubt GRRM's intention.  Robert took an easy way out.  only for it to come bite him later in Ned's lowering of trust, of increased conflict between the Stark's and the Lannisters. 

[bemused]

Spoiler

 OOPS!

 

24 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Agreed, it was that she backed him into a corner publicly. I think that's what Ned knows when he regrets what he did, he's very upset at the magnitude of what he did, looking back. And he had the conversation with Arya about Nymeria, and told her she did the right thing, that was there for a reason, too. I think Robert didn't want do go along with Cersei, and had Ned said, she ran away, Robert would have been very relieved.

I still don't think letting Lady go was a viable option... Lady was already chained/tied up , and even if Ned did scare Lady off, Cersei would only have insisted on hunting her down .. or punishing Arya. I agree Robert would have been relieved, but Cersei was determined not to be denied . I mean, though Ned had regrets, it's not as if Ned ever fully realized the depth of a warg bond.. How could he? Skinchangers were the stuff of legend to him.

But I don't need selling on the importance of "Get her a dog, she'll be happier."..  .. or on the importance of her connection to the Hound. I also can't help feeling that her Tully/Whent (with maybe a bit of wrong-side-of-the-blanket Lothston thrown in) heritage will also be very important to her character's development.

But it appears the show is going nowhere with that.

 

 

[rosehustle1]

7 minutes ago, bemused said:

  Reveal hidden contents

 OOPS!

 

I still don't think letting Lady go was a viable option... Lady was already chained/tied up , and even if Ned did scare Lady off, Cersei would only have insisted on hunting her down .. or punishing Arya. I agree Robert would have been relieved, but Cersei was determined not to be denied . I mean, though Ned had regrets, it's not as if Ned ever fully realized the depth of a warg bond.. How could he? Skinchangers were the stuff of legend to him.

But I don't need selling on the importance of "Get her a dog, she'll be happier."..  .. or on the importance of her connection to the Hound. I also can't help feeling that her Tully/Whent (with maybe a bit of wrong-side-of-the-blanket Lothston thrown in) heritage will also be very important to her character's development.

But it appears the show is going nowhere with that.

 

 

They really screwed things up when they took her out of the Vale. It had the biggest domino effect on her and various other characterizations.  They made a big mistake in only allowing one Stark the warging ability. That's a big reason Arya's current arc is so boring and repetitive.