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[Spoilers] Rant and Rave without Reprecussions - Season 6 Edition


Ran

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6 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Ya know what's kinda ironic about people focusing on Hodor while overlooking the birth of the Others, show only viewers and people who hate the last two books complain that the story has not had them on page in sooo long that readers forgot about them, and this was "improved" on the show. Well, huh! Here we get a big nugget of gold and viewers just want to polish the brass :dunno:

OK, that should be the big news, show wise. But book wise, I don't believe it, no more than the Night King is still in business/alive. In TWoIaF, there are references to the Lion of Night demons as early as the construction of the 5 Forts, meaning the early emperors of Dawn. Much before the First Men invasion.

More so, if I read correctly, the girl who did it is still alive. She looks the same at least. She would be what, 10 000 years? And she dies because of Bran blunder?

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1 hour ago, BalerionTheCat said:

OK, that should be the big news, show wise. But book wise, I don't believe it, no more than the Night King is still in business/alive. In TWoIaF, there are references to the Lion of Night demons as early as the construction of the 5 Forts, meaning the early emperors of Dawn. Much before the First Men invasion.

More so, if I read correctly, the girl who did it is still alive. She looks the same at least. She would be what, 10 000 years? And she dies because of Bran blunder?

Good point

and another detail, is that the lands of always winter, was once green and lush forests, so according to the show, the others are origin of the unnatural long winters, 

but it makes no sense with the historical proofs that an event of creatures like the others around for far more back in history than the first men invasion,

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5 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

... (snip)

Jaime: I have no idea. I'll ask Cersei. She knows everything....She tells me everything I have to do.

Brienne: No, it's Tyrion. He drinks and knows things.

Jaime: Yes!

If Jaime ever sees Tyrion again...  he'll kill him!!!    For revenge!!!

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5 hours ago, TheCasualObserver said:

I have no idea. GRRM written or not, the "Hodor/hold the door" thing leaves me cold and the fact that the children of the forest created the white walkers by shoving a little knife into some random guys chest is severely underwhelming.

Yeah, I don't like the "hold the door" thing either way myself. But isn't that the job of the showrunners and the interns they send out on the internet... to search down the most asinine ideas and write them in to the show for fan service and money?

But ya know, just turn your brain off to -11 to enjoy the show :dunno:

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God show Brienne has become so ridiculously fucking irritating. I don't even care about the nonstop swipes at Stannis anymore, but when she dissed DAVOS in the last episode she officially become my second least favorite character on the show (after Ramsay). Do D$D even realize how ridiculously hypocritical she comes off calling him out for jumping ship to Jon when she literally jumped ship to Catelyn a minute after Renly was killed AND THEN going to the Lannisters shortly after that? Someone needs to kill her ASAP but it won't happen because she's obviously one of D$Ds favorites.

The worst part is I actually like book Brienne. In the cases of Ramsay and Dany, the show just took characters I already disliked and made them even more irritating, but here I have to make a point to stress its the show version of Brienne that I hate.

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About Sansa and Petyr showdown, there is this essay in Salon

http://www.salon.com/2016/05/23/littlefingers_shame_sansas_confrontation_was_game_of_thrones_oddest_show_down_yet/#comments

 

Quote

Until he takes her to Winterfell. As Sansa says to Littlefinger, when she meets him in the relative cover of Mole’s Town: He’s either an idiot or a liar if he didn’t know what Ramsay was when he handed her over. Petyr Baelish is not in the habit of notknowing things; indeed, he’s sought out Sansa in part to tell her something he does know, which is that her uncle the Blackfish has regrouped in the Riverlands with a contingent of soldiers. Sure, this might be a lie, but the point is, Littlefinger’s wholething is that he purports to know other things. He trades in information and secrets.

So, making the safe assumption that Littlefinger knew about Ramsay, he must have been trying to punish her or hurt Sansa, by handing her over to Westeros’ most hateful lordling. He handed her off to a brute, and the brute brutalized her; so far, everything is going as planned.

 

Quote

The more I thought about it last night, rewatching the first scene of “The Door,” the less and less sense the conversation made. And it explained how unsatisfying I found this long-awaited interaction. I don’t really know what the show wants me to feel about Sansa and Littlefinger, and though Sophie Turner tolerably delivered icy disdain for Littlefinger, mingled with anger and lingering affection, Aidan Gillen did little more than just mirror her own resentments. It’s not because he’s not a great actor himself. It’s because there is not really any internal logic to the character he’s currently performing. The man who knows everything either underestimated Ramsay Bolton—unlikely—or even more severely underestimated how Sansa Stark would react to being sold into marriage with a sadist. What is happening here? What could he possibly hope to gain from this conversation?

 

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She gave LF way too much credit in that article. But I agree the scene made no damn sense. Nothing about these characters makes sense. What did she hope to achieve? Did she think he was a genuinely decent guy who would express remorse? Surely she's not that stupid, he kidnapped her after framing her for regicide, forced kisses on her, lied to her, pimped her out to family killers... and that's just what she knows.

The only thing you can do with the show, as far as figuring out what it's about, is to see the man behind the curtain, pulling the strings. What were they up to here? They are just using this scene to tell, not show, the story they didn't tell last season. Add to that, her being there at all last season made no sense, nor her not making every effort every step of the way to escape. It's like she had an appointment for torture, and she kept it.

Who is she anyway? Who knows. They treat her like a thing, so let's just go with that. She's a prop, a human prop. She's not supposed to be there, so they are currently using her as a substitute for Robb's will. When that plot function is served, they'll use her for something else. And she's ruining Jon's story, they are trying to pretend brutal torture was empowering, at his expense. He's coming off weak.

There's no meaning in any of the scenes, they are far too superficial and contradictory, and always built on a foundation of sand. It's just a series of skits where actors don't know who the character is or why they are doing anything, and even if they did at that moment, it would all change the next. So they just emote, at various levels, and maybe hope to get some sort of reaction, then move onto the next skit.

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6 minutes ago, Stannis is the man....nis said:

This is what happens when you put a character (Sansa) in a storyline role designed specifically for another character (Jenye) supporting characters motivations and plans don't make sense

Yeah, there's a big difference, any good writer knows this. From a good book on screenwriting (Dancyger/Rush):

Quote

Generally, the main character is energetic and is exposed to sufficient conflict to propel her through the story. The main character differs from secondary characters in a variety of ways. The primary difference is that she undergoes a metamorphosis during the course of the story. On the other hand, the secondary characters not only don't change, they serve as a source of contrast to the main character. Through this interaction, secondary characters help to move the story along.

 

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31 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

There's no meaning in any of the scenes, they are far too superficial and contradictory, and always built on a foundation of sand. It's just a series of skits where actors don't know who the character is or why they are doing anything, and even if they did at that moment, it would all change the next. So they just emote, at various levels, and maybe hope to get some sort of reaction, then move onto the next skit.

I liked this analysis about the scene of Sansa and LittleFinger

 

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11 hours ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

lol, let's not bring LOST into this. The characters were at least all real, we knew them, and we understood their motivations. If GOT could even be half as good.........;...... Sansa's character is especially nonsensical, well most of them women are......

Yeah, at least I felt something for the characters on Lost. I feel nothing for any of the characters on GOT anymore. There is no heart to this show anymore. Just pure nihilism.

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So important matters at hand, will they show Jaime smacking someone with his golden hand for dissing Brienne?

Chances of seeing this iconic moment in the show: 1%

But if so, who will he smack. It has to be someone who has seen Brienne. I am thinking Bronn. Jaime would pay him back for smacking him with his hand.

Of course, in the books, RR called her a wench, and only Jaime is allowed to call her that. Show it will probably be a nasty word (the one they use all the time).

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An observation that may come into play later. Sansa is a major threat to Littlefinger. She was  at the end of Season 4 when she saved his ass with the Lords Declarant, led by Royce. Given that Sweet Robin obviously cares for Sansa, she is the only person that could probably come between LF and his hold over the potential Joff 2.0 Lord Robyn Arryn. LF wanted to meet Sansa to assess her feelings towards him and his worst fears seem to be confirmed and  (if he has any) that are she hates his guts. So, Sansa is now an even bigger threat to him because of Season 5. Now, what trumps everything is that there is $%#$^%^ logic to the show writing so anything can happen.

One thing I am sure of and it is that Sansa's fate at the end of this season, will be in LF's hands, not her own, not Jon but Baelish himself. That Vale army that she turned down is going to be needed and when she asks, it will come at a price. Do any of you remember Sansa and LF's interaction at the end of Season 4?  Sansa to LF as she is stitching her cleavage dress "I know what you want". LF to Sansa "What do I want?". Sansa pursed her lips slightly in a seductive way. Remember that. LF will offer her the Vale armies again in exchange for "something". She will ask what he wants. His almost assured answer will be: "you know what I want". Her hand in marriage when Ramsay is gone. He wants her, the Starks Castle, the North etc. If he thinks he cannot control or have Sansa, then he will try and kill her and pin it on Ramsay's men or Ramsay himself.

I am hoping for the Hound to come back, find out that LF is creeping on his bird and go and hunt him down and kill him before it is too late. IF there is one thing that would push Sansa into having LF taken out or her doing it, it would be the knowledge that LF sold out her father and was likely the one that coaxed Joff into killing him, just like he could have had Sweet Robin kill Royce.

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1 hour ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

I am hoping for the Hound to come back, find out that LF is creeping on his bird and go and hunt him down and kill him before it is too late. IF there is one thing that would push Sansa into having LF taken out or her doing it, it would be the knowledge that LF sold out her father and was likely the one that coaxed Joff into killing him, just like he could have had Sweet Robin kill Royce.

Never fear, LF shall be toast, it's just a matter of when. I rather doubt she's going to go from her faux empowered state to into LF's clutches again. Too much effort to write another faux empowerment arc for her, this one will just have to do.

Here's what might have happened! I think the show has been hinting there will be a rematch.

http://bighound-littlebird.tumblr.com/post/113089578444/i-hesitated-about-making-this-but-in-the-end-was

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12 hours ago, SuperMario said:

I feel that's the show using the media to garner the response it wanted. The show put that scene last and had Benioff speak on it and how important it was. That in turn fed the media who focused on it to no end, which in turn fed the GOT zombies, who focus on it to no end.

It's kind of like when some ESPN "analyst" makes up a bullshit headline about sports - "Lebron James might not be the best player on the Cavaliers anymore." Then they have their own people report on it as it if was news. "Did you hear about the report that Lebron James might not be the best player on the Cavaliers?" 

It's the fire feeding itself and the masses lap it up as if it were true because other people are reporting it. In the end, the more people that talk about Hodor leads to even more people talking about Hodor.

That's absolutely it. The way to engender media response and control it.

Has anyone watched the day after talk show HBO is hosting? After the Thrones or whatever it's called. I keep failing to do it. I'd like to see it once to see the direction and how serious (or not) it takes itself. This, along with the Outside the Episodes are their way of controlling and pseudo-explaining what's going on in the show. 

It's hilarious to me how seriously it takes itself now. And yet, we still need the showrunners to explain what really happened in some scenes. But since this is the show that lies to its audience with a straight face as a rule and as a media ploy, why should we believe them at all? They'll secretively guard their surprises and tap dance around what they don't want their viewership to know until airtime.

The showrunners valued and lived by the Red Wedding. Now all they want to do is recreate it's emotional reaction over and over. But you can only go to that well so many times. It won't surprise me if, in the end, the Red Wedding inspires its own trope.

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5 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

An observation that may come into play later. Sansa is a major threat to Littlefinger. She was  at the end of Season 4 when she saved his ass with the Lords Declarant, led by Royce. Given that Sweet Robin obviously cares for Sansa, she is the only person that could probably come between LF and his hold over the potential Joff 2.0 Lord Robyn Arryn. LF wanted to meet Sansa to assess her feelings towards him and his worst fears seem to be confirmed and  (if he has any) that are she hates his guts. So, Sansa is now an even bigger threat to him because of Season 5. Now, what trumps everything is that there is $%#$^%^ logic to the show writing so anything can happen.

One thing I am sure of and it is that Sansa's fate at the end of this season, will be in LF's hands, not her own, not Jon but Baelish himself. That Vale army that she turned down is going to be needed and when she asks, it will come at a price. Do any of you remember Sansa and LF's interaction at the end of Season 4?  Sansa to LF as she is stitching her cleavage dress "I know what you want". LF to Sansa "What do I want?". Sansa pursed her lips slightly in a seductive way. Remember that. LF will offer her the Vale armies again in exchange for "something". She will ask what he wants. His almost assured answer will be: "you know what I want". Her hand in marriage when Ramsay is gone. He wants her, the Starks Castle, the North etc. If he thinks he cannot control or have Sansa, then he will try and kill her and pin it on Ramsay's men or Ramsay himself.

I am hoping for the Hound to come back, find out that LF is creeping on his bird and go and hunt him down and kill him before it is too late. IF there is one thing that would push Sansa into having LF taken out or her doing it, it would be the knowledge that LF sold out her father and was likely the one that coaxed Joff into killing him, just like he could have had Sweet Robin kill Royce.

If LSH isn't there to kill LF, I would accept this compromise. :D

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7 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

She gave LF way too much credit in that article. But I agree the scene made no damn sense. Nothing about these characters makes sense. What did she hope to achieve? Did she think he was a genuinely decent guy who would express remorse? Surely she's not that stupid, he kidnapped her after framing her for regicide, forced kisses on her, lied to her, pimped her out to family killers... and that's just what she knows.

The only thing you can do with the show, as far as figuring out what it's about, is to see the man behind the curtain, pulling the strings. What were they up to here? They are just using this scene to tell, not show, the story they didn't tell last season. Add to that, her being there at all last season made no sense, nor her not making every effort every step of the way to escape. It's like she had an appointment for torture, and she kept it.

Who is she anyway? Who knows. They treat her like a thing, so let's just go with that. She's a prop, a human prop. She's not supposed to be there, so they are currently using her as a substitute for Robb's will. When that plot function is served, they'll use her for something else. And she's ruining Jon's story, they are trying to pretend brutal torture was empowering, at his expense. He's coming off weak.

There's no meaning in any of the scenes, they are far too superficial and contradictory, and always built on a foundation of sand. It's just a series of skits where actors don't know who the character is or why they are doing anything, and even if they did at that moment, it would all change the next. So they just emote, at various levels, and maybe hope to get some sort of reaction, then move onto the next skit.

This is a good point, and even if the internal consistency of the scene was confusing as fuck, the actual reasons for it being written are transparent to me.

1. Give Sansa a chance to rail at LF, creating a fleeting glimpse of empowerment to appease those they pissed off last year with her story.

2. Set up Sansa's rejection of LF and later return of him and the Vale knights toward the end of the season.

3. Provide exposition to the audience about the Blackfish and set up Brienne's plot for the rest of the season.

The fact that it was a jumbled mess of improbability and piss poor characterization is irrelevent. These plot points were hit and that is all that matters.

What really irritates me is that we are threading a needle in order for the plot to work. The Vale knights have to be close so that they can save the day in ep 9, but have to be rejected in this scene so they don't show up too soon. Sansa has to be pissed at LF now, but not so pissed that she harms or prevents him from doing what the plot requires, and not act smart enough to get the Vale knights without him.

What this really is is token. Token empowerment, token feminism, token characterization and token storytelling. The show is riddled with this shit.

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6 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

An observation that may come into play later. Sansa is a major threat to Littlefinger. She was  at the end of Season 4 when she saved his ass with the Lords Declarant, led by Royce. Given that Sweet Robin obviously cares for Sansa, she is the only person that could probably come between LF and his hold over the potential Joff 2.0 Lord Robyn Arryn. LF wanted to meet Sansa to assess her feelings towards him and his worst fears seem to be confirmed and  (if he has any) that are she hates his guts. So, Sansa is now an even bigger threat to him because of Season 5. Now, what trumps everything is that there is $%#$^%^ logic to the show writing so anything can happen.

One thing I am sure of and it is that Sansa's fate at the end of this season, will be in LF's hands, not her own, not Jon but Baelish himself. That Vale army that she turned down is going to be needed and when she asks, it will come at a price. Do any of you remember Sansa and LF's interaction at the end of Season 4?  Sansa to LF as she is stitching her cleavage dress "I know what you want". LF to Sansa "What do I want?". Sansa pursed her lips slightly in a seductive way. Remember that. LF will offer her the Vale armies again in exchange for "something". She will ask what he wants. His almost assured answer will be: "you know what I want". Her hand in marriage when Ramsay is gone. He wants her, the Starks Castle, the North etc. If he thinks he cannot control or have Sansa, then he will try and kill her and pin it on Ramsay's men or Ramsay himself.

I am hoping for the Hound to come back, find out that LF is creeping on his bird and go and hunt him down and kill him before it is too late. IF there is one thing that would push Sansa into having LF taken out or her doing it, it would be the knowledge that LF sold out her father and was likely the one that coaxed Joff into killing him, just like he could have had Sweet Robin kill Royce.

This is what I complained about last year. If she so chose she could have crushed LF with a word to the Vale Lords about him killing Lysa Arryn, so why was she still helpless against him?

He leverage over him now is even higher, but she still does exactly jack shit.

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So I caved and watched the episodes. I didn't want to. But I was getting that bloody "hold the door" meme everwhere and decided to just rip the bandage off before I ended up with half the story. Also, my sister (a book reader) assured me that this season was better than the last. I will not be taking her advice again.

Most of the awful stuff has probably already been covered in this thread. But I wanted to talk about kinslaying for a moment. The rampant kinslaying is honestly the most troubling part of this season. It highlights the callous and cynical approach D&D have to morality in the worst way. Let's see, who do we have so far?

 

The Sand Snakes & Ellaria murdering Doran and Trystane.

Euron killing Balon.

Ramsay killing Roose.

 

Am I missing anyone? Let’s examine the common themes between all of them.

 

The first definitely doesn’t happen in the books, the second probably did happen, and the third may happen (personally I think it’s very likely one of Roose or Ramsay will kill the other, but it remains to be seen). It’s not whether they happen or not that bothers me, it’s the flagrancy.

 

Ellaria kills Doran in plain view of his guards. Ramsay stabs Roose in front of one of his vassal lords (who has only just declared for the Boltons and whose loyalty to Ramsay is uncertain). Euron goes to the trouble of recreating the book scene, then just brags about his murder in front of a crowd.

 

Kinslaying is the greatest crime in Westeros. “No man is as accursed as the kinslayer”. Rape, murder, even breaking guest right; they all pale in comparison to the Westerosi. And that makes sense for the society they live in. A feudal system, where ranks pass between family members, and societal structures are built upon families making promises to each other, cannot survive otherwise. Families do not just act as a household, but as a single political entity. If there is infighting, the house cannot survive, and the system collapses.

 

That is not to mean it doesn’t happen. But either the perpetrator is either instantly ostracized by his peers (Tyrion killing Tywin, Theon for supposedly killing his adopted brothers), or goes to great lengths to conceal his crime. Stannis births a shadow to murder Renly, Euron gives away a dragon egg to hire a faceless man – even the notoriously unsubtle Ramsay poisons Domeric covertly. All because they know that if their crime became common knowledge, they would be disowned instantly. It doesn’t matter whether you’re villainous enough to do it or not, it’s plausible deniability that matters. They have to tailor their evil to operate within the society they live in. That’s the only way they can be successful at the game.

 

Yet not in the show. Ramsay, Euron and Ellaria are all pretty flagrant about their murders – all either committing the act itself or confessing it in front of multiple witnesses. All of whom are apparently not bothered, despite it being a cornerstone of their society. I would liken it to a presidential frontrunner announcing he likes to diddle kids in his downtime, and winning the election anyway. It is the greatest taboo in Westeros, and will never earn you loyalty. Yet these three are immediately rewarded. Ellaria apparently takes control of Dorne, Ramsay gets the North, and Euron wins the kingsmoot. I must return to that great quote – “Game of Thrones has turned from a show that won’t let its heroes cheat to win, to a show that lets its villains cheat to win.” It is not realistic, or gritty, or brave, to have villains getting away with such brazen acts. They get away with it because it’s a grimdark world where evil always wins, against all logic.

 

It is also interesting to note how the victims of kinslaying this season view it.

 

Would you have me fight the Crow's Eye? Brother against brother, ironborn against ironborn?" Euron was still his elder, no matter how much bad blood might be between them. No man is as accursed as the kinslayer.

 

“The kinslayer is accursed in the eyes of gods and men, Balon had reminded him on the day he sent the Crow's Eye off to sea.”

"Yes, m'lord. Domeric. I … I have heard his name …"

"Ramsay killed him … Now his bones lie beneath the Dreadfort with the bones of his brothers, who died still in the cradle, and I am left with Ramsay. Tell me, my lord … if the kinslayer is accursed, what is a father to do when one son slays another?"

Here we have Victarion, Balon and Roose all speaking about kinslaying. It is clear from their words that they would usually have no issue with killing Euron or Ramsay, but it is the taboo of kinslaying that stops them. For the ironborn, it is one step too far, even for rapist pirates. For Roose, he is concerned of the political ramifications. And Trystane is similar in the show.

“I don’t want to hurt you… you’re family.”

And then he is stabbed through the head. As a punchline. It is clear how the writers view these situations. Trystane, Doran, Balon and Roose are idiots who are either too honourable, too stupid or too slow on the uptake to kill their family members. Fauxllaria, Euron and Ramsay are rewarded for their ruthlessness and presented as great badasses. They have taken “You Win or You Die” at its most literal and assumed that “winning” is just not dying. Getting a leg up in the game of thrones, is not about manipulation, or tying people to your cause, or inspiring loyalty. It’s just about being quicker with a dagger. It’s the most simplistic view of a complex series you could possibly have.

You can see this attitude permeating the rest of the show. Daenerys and Jon are only celebrated when they’re being “badass” – hacking people with a sword or burning men alive. There are no ramifications for the Boltons and the Freys breaking guest right. There is no Lady Stoneheart, no resistance in the Riverlands, no Northern conspiracy. Ned was an honourable fool and the evidence that his legacy would be greater and longer lasting than Tywin’s is absent. In this world, Ramsay has more loyal followers than Stannis and Doran is a “weak man” for not murdering innocent children.

The Westerosi are a complex people in the books. They may have many moral outlooks that would repulse a modern audience, but they are not without morals. They value honour above all, and have a rigid set of codes and conventions that all – heroes and villains and all shades of grey in between – must attempt to navigate. In Weisseroff, everyone is the Dothraki – mindlessly following the strongest and most willing to kill. Every inhabitant is that guy you know who thinks that Sansa is naïve and annoying, but that who ripped out the dude’s tongue is totally badass. Westeros may be dark, and ruthless, and unforgiving. But it is not as simple as that. To present it as such, and to reward those who brazenly break taboos without consequence, it to belie a fundamental misunderstanding of the world in which their characters live, and the story Martin is trying to tell.

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